A thread on Indurain's doping

[pmcg76]

I was at a number of Tours over that period - in 90 Indurain could barely hold Lemond's wheel up Luz Ardiden. In 91 Lemond arrived in good form (he won the yellow jersey on stage 1, lost it, then regained it for 4 stages midway through). By that point, Lemond looked like he could no longer recover like some other riders and exhausted himself chasing down increasinly aggressive attacks - and a lot of stupid ones like Chiappucci's. 91 is the start of the trend of an 8% increase in average Tour speed, by then EPO use was reported to be widespread. 91 was also the year of the PDM team Tour withdrawl (the team had been systematically taking EPO since 1990). Any dominant performance from 91 on is suspicious...

Ok, thats the first time I heard someone suggest PDM were on EPO by 91, Johannes Draaijer's death in 1990 was linked to EPO but dont know if that was ever proven. I have no doubt PDM were on a very good systematic drug programme but not sure about EPO. Any insight as to were you got this information.

I also dont think EPO was widespread in 91 unless your definition of widespread is one or two teams and a handful of individuals. I believe EPO became widespread in 93/94 when almost everyone started getting on it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...when exactly was he first?...

Cheers

blutto

Cancellara has won a lot of races, I am surprised you haven't heard of him. I heard a rumour he uses aero-bars. (Not sure if he uses them for 'uphill' TTs though).

Cheers.

 

[Polish]

I was at a number of Tours over that period - in 90 Indurain could barely hold Lemond's wheel up Luz Ardiden. In 91 Lemond arrived in good form (he won the yellow jersey on stage 1, lost it, then regained it for 4 stages midway through). By that point, Lemond looked like he could no longer recover like some other riders and exhausted himself chasing down increasinly aggressive attacks - and a lot of stupid ones like Chiappucci's. 91 is the start of the trend of an 8% increase in average Tour speed, by then EPO use was reported to be widespread. 91 was also the year of the PDM team Tour withdrawl (the team had been systematically taking EPO since 1990). Any dominant performance from 91 on is suspicious...

Big Mig "could barely hold LeMond's" wheel up Luz Ardiden because he spent the previous 15 stages working his tail off for Delgado lol.

And why would Big Mig do anything BUT suck LeMond's wheel when his Team leader Delgado was further down the hill fighting for GC?

Big Mig would NOT attack his own team leader please.

And did you watch the run up to Alpe d'huez on stage 11 that year?
Big Mig pulled the whole peloton for miles in the wind across the lake.
Almost rode the peloton off his wheel. Monsterous.
Then peeled of at the bottom and let Delgado/Lemond and others pass him on the climb.
"riders who I would pass are now passing me waawaa"

Big Mig still managed a top10 finish in the Tour that year.
Delgado 4th.
Delgado should have worked for Big Mig that year imo.

 

[blutto]

Cancellara has won a lot of races, I am surprised you haven't heard of him. I heard a rumour he uses aero-bars. (Not sure if he uses them for 'uphill' TTs though).

Cheers.

...I was referring to LeMond...and judging from your response it would appear there was no first in TTs for the dear boy...am I correct?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...I was referring to LeMond...and judging from your response it would appear there was no first in TTs for the dear boy...am I correct?...

Cheers

blutto

I'm not sure - the person who brought up the LeMond/Hinault thing is a poster called Blutto, they certainly implied that LeMond had won (I have highlighted it for you below in case you missed their post.)

So it seems you are wrong but probably best to ask them what they meant.

...the raw numbers you posted for that 89 TT don't take into account the aerodynamic advantage LeMond enjoyed thru the use of aerobars...once that is factored in the difference is closer to 30 sec....and while we are discussing that TT we may want to consider the fact that LeMond was never an overwhelming force in the TT discipline( he only beat Hinault once and barely and on a day when Hinault was suffering from the effects of a broken nose ) yet on that day, and after his accident, he smoked everyone...I find that curious don't you?...

...and LeMond's 92 performance?....wasn't he in the throes of mitochondrial disease?....I mean, his subpar performance in the TT was also mirrored by his subpar performance in the mountains was it not?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

I'm not sure - the person who brought up the LeMond/Hinault thing is a poster called Blutto, they certainly implied that LeMond had won (I have highlighted it for you below in case you missed their post.)

So it seems you are wrong but probably best to ask them what they meant.

...that was before Hinault retired was it not?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[mastersracer]

Ok, thats the first time I heard someone suggest PDM were on EPO by 91, Johannes Draaijer's death in 1990 was linked to EPO but dont know if that was ever proven. I have no doubt PDM were on a very good systematic drug programme but not sure about EPO. Any insight as to were you got this information.

I also dont think EPO was widespread in 91 unless your definition of widespread is one or two teams and a handful of individuals. I believe EPO became widespread in 93/94 when almost everyone started getting on it.

PDM were on EPO by 1990. Their team doctor, Wim Sanders, was convicted in 1997 of leading a doping ring between 1990-95. He first used Eprex in 1990 at PDM but also supplied riders outside of PDM.

 

[Big Doopie]

You're right - that is curious, how is it LeMond was second best to Hinault in the TT and then when Hinault retired he becomes first.

Oh, my! Thank you, dear doctor!

don't even bother, the silly fellow doesn't even know that lemond won a TT.

and, yes, pdm was systematically doping with epo in 1991.

i would say that pdm (a dutch team -- no surprise there since it was largely dutch amateurs that had been the guinea pigs) were the first to have team-wide epo doping in 1991. my guess is that their pros started testing it out sometime in 1990. you have breukink and alcala turning into mind-boggling TTers. breukink had always been good at shorter tts, but was truly dominant in 1990 -- through team sickness in 1991. after that he faded quickly with few results -- perhaps as other riders caught on. alcala also stunned everyone in 1990 and then similarly faded once everyone else caught on. however, the turning point for epo entering the pro-peloton and the pros seeing the benefits was when two little know belgian riders (both pdm) were able to escape a pack led by all the champs of the time -- lemond, mottet, kelly, bugno at the worlds in japan in 1990. despite the champs' efforts, these two lowly riders held a 20 second advantage for many up and down kms and were never caught. the one who ended up as world champion later quit cycling due to heart problems...sound familiar?

two good-ish pros (with very few wins between them), both from the same national and sponsored team (a team that would go down in history a few months later as having had institutionalized epo doping), managing to hold off a pack of true champions.

to me that will always be the official start of when epo began to affect pro results and hierarchy.

(btw -- i only believe the top three out of the top eight in the 1991 tour were doing epo at the time -- luc leblanc was not on it yet)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...that was before Hinault retired was it not?...

Cheers

blutto

I would think so - because if Blutto was using data after Hinault retired that would be silly.

 

[mastersracer]

Oh, my! Thank you, dear doctor!

don't even bother, the silly fellow doesn't even know that lemond won a TT.

and, yes, pdm was systematically doping with epo in 1991.

i would say that pdm (a dutch team -- no surprise there since it was largely dutch amateurs that had been the guinea pigs) were the first to have team-wide epo doping in 1991. my guess is that their pros started testing it out sometime in 1990. you have breukink and alcala turning into mind-boggling TTers. breukink had always been good at shorter tts, but was truly dominant in 1990 -- through team sickness in 1991. after that he faded quickly with few results -- perhaps as other riders caught on. alcala also stunned everyone in 1990 and then similarly faded once everyone else caught on. however, the turning point for epo entering the pro-peloton and the pros seeing the benefits was when two little know belgian riders (both pdm) were able to escape a pack led by all the champs of the time -- lemond, mottet, kelly, bugno at the worlds in japan in 1990. despite the champs' efforts, these two lowly riders held a 20 second advantage for many up and down kms and were never caught. the one who ended up as world champion later quit cycling due to heart problems...sound familiar?

two good-ish pros (with very few wins between them), both from the same national and sponsored team (a team that would go down in history a few months later as having had institutionalized epo doping), managing to hold off a pack of true champions.

to me that will always be the official start of when epo began to have an effect on pro results and hierarchy.

(btw -- i only believe the top three out of the top eight in the 1991 tour were doing epo at the time -- luc leblanc was not on it yet)

good post - I'd toss the 1990 Giro in there as well. Bugno held the pink jersey from the first to the last stage and won by 6 and a half minutes...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

good post - I'd toss the 1990 Giro in there as well. Bugno held the pink jersey from the first to the last stage and won by 6 and a half minutes...

Bingo.
That was always the performance that puzzled me. I remember reading at the time that he had some corrective condition done on his ears to restore his balance as he was losing lots of time pre 90 descending.

Amazingly this also made him climb and TT better.

 

[Bala Verde]

PDM were on EPO by 1990. Their team doctor, Wim Sanders, was convicted in 1997 of leading a doping ring between 1990-95. He first used Eprex in 1990 at PDM but also supplied riders outside of PDM.

Hereis an article in dutch in NRC in 1997, which recounts that part of the then disbanded PDM team moved to Festina. In between the lines you can also read how Rooks almost admits to using PEDs or 'medication'. (also in Italian and english)

Volgens de inmiddels gestopte Rooks was Rykaert ,,in elk geval geen vreselijke knoeier''. Rooks had naar eigen zeggen slechts zijdelings contact met de ploegarts van Festina. ,,Ik heb altijd goede contacten met die man gehad. Testen deed hij in zijn eentje, maar als je bepaalde medicijnen nodig had, kon je bij hem terecht. Ik was ervaren genoeg om te weten wat ik kon gebruiken. Sommige medicijnen had je gewoon nodig om je te kunnen meten met de concurrentie. Dat is inherent aan topsport. Het moet steeds sneller en sneller.''

 

[Polish]

Going to bring it back around to the original post for a second...
Here is the original post fyi:

Okay, fire away on Indurain.



......hello?

Now, I do not doubt that Big Mig used EPO during his reign.
Maybe even in 1991.
And no doubt EPO helped Big Mig.

But to argue against his awesomeness is a bit lame to say the least sorry.
Even Greg in a moment of honesty years ago admitted that he would NOT have made up the 13minutes he lost to Big Mig in 1991 no matter what.
Big Mig was stronger - no matter what.

Big Mig started the 91 TdF at 26 years old - but had already started 14 Grand Tours by that time. Loads of GT miles in the legs.
Finished Top 20 in 1989, Top10 in 1990.
All those years as a domestique, then a SUPER DOMESTIQUE ready to kick ***.

And kick *** he did.
To deny his awesomeness is silly, right?

Fast forward to this week, I found it interesting that Big Mig gently critisized Alberto for pushing his date with CAS out further. Bad for cycling.

 

[mastersracer]

when I said Indurain could barely hold Lemond's wheel on Luz Ardiden, I wasn't suggesting he pull, since obviously Delgado was behind. I meant he was getting gapped, was struggling not to get unhooked, and was on the edge of popping most of the way up. No doubt there was a lot of maturation as a stage racer, but there's reason to be suspicious of his awesomeness in terms of what took him to the next level as a Tour winner. Lemond also said this about him:

"Indurain just popped out of nowhere. Nobody would have considered him capable of doing what he's doing when he turned pro seven years before [his first Tour win]."

 

[Polish]

when I said Indurain could barely hold Lemond's wheel on Luz Ardiden, I wasn't suggesting he pull, since obviously Delgado was behind. I meant he was getting gapped, was struggling not to get unhooked, and was on the edge of popping most of the way up. No doubt there was a lot of maturation as a stage racer, but there's reason to be suspicious of his awesomeness in terms of what took him to the next level as a Tour winner. Lemond also said this about him:

"Indurain just popped out of nowhere. Nobody would have considered him capable of doing what he's doing when he turned pro seven years before [his first Tour win]."

Big Mig was three years younger than Greg, but rode in every Tour Greg rode.
Big Mig also rode in the 87 and 88 TdF's when Greg was injured.
Big Mig finished Top20 in 1989 and Top10 in 1990.
Steady progression. Better and better each and every year.
Connect the dots. Fit the line. Seven dots aimed at #1.
Greg ignored Big Mig at his own peril.

Big Mig had some interesting quotes following the 1991 TdF.
I did not realize Greg had a virus in that crucial 7 minute loss stage

Indurain said he was surprised by what happened to LeMond this year, "but I think it marked the Tour in two ways."

"The first was at the beginning when LeMond took two minutes' lead and managed to keep it. It was too much time for the other teams to catch up," Indurain said. "But it was also a little bit of what contributed to LeMond losing this tour.

"He was the favorite, so we all attacked him--and physically as well as psychologically, he had too much pressure."

A virus hurt LeMond in Val Louron, the 13th stage, when he dropped seven minutes to the leaders.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-29/sports/sp-131_1_tour-finish

 

[mastersracer]

Lemond's quote was referring to the fact that Indurain wasn't exactly a grand tour prodigy. Circa 1990 a switch is flipped and from then on he goes on to dominate grand tours (include the double Giro/Tour in 92 and 93).

Tour de France
1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th

Vuelta a España
1984: Withdrew
1985: 84th
1986: 92nd
1987: Withdrew
1988: Withdrew
1989: Withdrew
1990: 7th

 

[D-Queued]

Lemond's quote was referring to the fact that Indurain wasn't exactly a grand tour prodigy. Circa 1990 a switch is flipped and from then on he goes on to dominate grand tours (include the double Giro/Tour in 92 and 93).

Tour de France
1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th

Vuelta a España
1984: Withdrew
1985: 84th
1986: 92nd
1987: Withdrew
1988: Withdrew
1989: Withdrew
1990: 7th

Ok, but that is a nice progression from 1987-1991. Even, arguably, from 1985. Steady improvement up the ranks in the TdF.

No?

Dave.

 

[Escarabajo]

Bingo.
That was always the performance that puzzled me. I remember reading at the time that he had some corrective condition done on his ears to restore his balance as he was losing lots of time pre 90 descending.

Amazingly this also made him climb and TT better.

LOL. Never in my life I heard this excuse. Trying to make something up at the time like if he had eaten from the forbidden tree.

 

[Polish]

Lemond's quote was referring to the fact that Indurain wasn't exactly a grand tour prodigy. Circa 1990 a switch is flipped and from then on he goes on to dominate grand tours (include the double Giro/Tour in 92 and 93).

Tour de France
1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th

Vuelta a España
1984: Withdrew
1985: 84th
1986: 92nd
1987: Withdrew
1988: Withdrew
1989: Withdrew
1990: 7th

Greg was a young man when he rode in the 84/85/86 TdFs.
But Big Mig rode them also - and he was 3 years YOUNGER than Greg.

Again - conect the dots 200/190/180/97/47/17/10/1
Complete BS that Big Mig "popped out" of anywhere.
Clinic BS extravaganza.
Clinic BS extraordinaire.

Bow down for Big Mig's awesomeness if you enjoy Pro Cycling Excellence.
If you want to whine, no one will stop you either lol.

 

[Big Doopie]

Ok, but that is a nice progression from 1987-1991. Even, arguably, from 1985. Steady improvement up the ranks in the TdF.

No?

Dave.

yes, dq, it is a progression. the problem is it doesn't jibe with historical norm, that's all.

pre-epo all the riders knew who was capable of winning a gt. it was very simple. indurain was not considered a possible winner by those that counted. lemond looked around at the start of 1991 (used to fignon, hinault, etc...) and literally said to himself: "there's no one".

lemond took that early two minute lead and then solidified it losing only 8 seconds to indurain in the 70+km ITT. in fact lemond was tt-ing better than in 1990. and he had always climbed much better than the heavy indurain, there was no reason to think...

8 secs in a 70+ km tt.

12 months later lemond was 4 mins behind (albeit in 5th place) behind de las cuevas (one of indurain's teammates[!!]) and bugno. and lemond thought he was going good. he couldn't understand how indurain was constantly gaining minutes on him...

whatever indurain was on in 1991 had been perfected by 1992.

(an aside -- I remember being absolutely stunned when indurain posted a better than 50km/h average on the long final TT of the giro that year -- that had never been seen before, never on a long TT.)

 

[redtreviso]

YEA YEA,... but look at LeMond. Alcala and Hampsten.. White jerseys. .. Indurain, Armstrong NOT. Other true GC contenders showed it right away.

 

[blutto]

yes, dq, it is a progression. the problem is it doesn't jibe with historical norm, that's all.

pre-epo all the riders knew who was capable of winning a gt. it was very simple. indurain was not considered a possible winner by those that counted. lemond looked around at the start of 1991 (used to fignon, hinault, etc...) and literally said to himself: "there's no one".

lemond took that early two minute lead and then solidified it losing only 8 seconds to indurain in the 70+km ITT. in fact lemond was tt-ing better than in 1990. and he had always climbed much better than the heavy indurain, there was no reason to think...

8 secs in a 70+ km tt.

12 months later lemond was 4 mins behind (albeit in 5th place) behind de las cuevas (one of indurain's teammates[!!]) and bugno. and lemond thought he was going good. he couldn't understand how indurain was constantly gaining minutes on him...

whatever indurain was on in 1991 had been perfected by 1992.

(an aside -- I remember being absolutely stunned when indurain posted a better than 50km/h average on the long final TT of the giro that year -- that had never been seen before, never on a long TT.)

...it was the era when the UCI finally allowed whole-sale aerodynamic aids...and increased speed was what was to be expected given that those aids gave huge advantages over the previously used bikes...as for LeMond in 92? maybe it was the beginnings of his mitochondrial problems...

Cheers

blutto

 

[D-Queued]

yes, dq, it is a progression. the problem is it doesn't jibe with historical norm, that's all.

pre-epo all the riders knew who was capable of winning a gt. it was very simple. indurain was not considered a possible winner by those that counted. lemond looked around at the start of 1991 (used to fignon, hinault, etc...) and literally said to himself: "there's no one".

lemond took that early two minute lead and then solidified it losing only 8 seconds to indurain in the 70+km ITT. in fact lemond was tt-ing better than in 1990. and he had always climbed much better than the heavy indurain, there was no reason to think...

8 secs in a 70+ km tt.

12 months later lemond was 4 mins behind (albeit in 5th place) behind de las cuevas (one of indurain's teammates[!!]) and bugno. and lemond thought he was going good. he couldn't understand how indurain was constantly gaining minutes on him...

whatever indurain was on in 1991 had been perfected by 1992.

(an aside -- I remember being absolutely stunned when indurain posted a better than 50km/h average on the long final TT of the giro that year -- that had never been seen before, never on a long TT.)

Ach. Indurain finally went through puberty.

And, like all great cyclists, LeMond used up all his pedal strokes.

As they say, he gave everything he had.

Edgar Allen Poe didn't show up until the Oslo World's.

Dave.

 

[SiAp1984]

Slightly off-topic, but I always wondered: Who was this last guy Indurain dropped in this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhEKRjhLuds

BTW, this ride can't possibly be a result of pure natural talent. He looks like on a motor-cycle. Impressive, though.

 

[Franklin]

Ah, Steven Rooks, the Cancellara of his day.
With that 1h 10m for 39km (33kmh) I was always surprised he never attempted the Hour record.

The hard fact is there: Big Mig beat GL and LF in the uphill TT.

All those here who are trying to falsify history to say that Big Mig "suddenly showed climbing and TT skills" are just to be laughed at.

Stick with the facts, there is enough ammo there to go without falsifying history.

And someone who corrects you guys on this loose and fast with facts behavior is not necessarily an apologist. I just detest falsification of history.