A thread on Indurain's doping

[Dr. Maserati]

The hard fact is there: Big Mig beat GL and LF in the uphill TT.

All those here who are trying to falsify history to say that Big Mig "suddenly showed climbing and TT skills" are just to be laughed at.

Stick with the facts, there is enough ammo there to go without falsifying history.

And someone who corrects you guys on this loose and fast with facts behavior is not necessarily an apologist. I just detest falsification of history.

I don't know why you responded with this post to one of my posts, I have been quite clear that 'Indurain did not just suddenly appear'.

 

[VeloCity]

That's true, but he was hardly a contender for victory in 93... Besides going in to the 93 season he lost 7 kg (and started doing epo of course.)

edit: An afaik the tour 93 was the first time he rode a gt not being domestique.

But compare Riis' rise to that of others:

1989 TdF: 89th
1991 TdF: 107th
1992 TdF: DNS/DNF?
1993 TdF: 5th

That's a pretty mercurial rise. Usually a rider acting as a domestique will still show signs of becoming a GT rider well before they actually become a GT contender - eg Lemond when riding for Hinault, Indurain for Delgado, Pantani for Chiappucci, Ullrich for Riis, etc - but Riis just came out of the depths in one big jump.

 

[Franklin]

I don't know why you responded with this post to one of my posts, I have been quite clear that 'Indurain did not just suddenly appear'.

I know you don't think that, but many others do. Apparently including Greg Lemond


As your post went over the humurous side it could very well be interpreted as to downplay Miguels accomplishment. I certainly know you know better, but many others obviously didn't (check the posts around that time).

The posted result is not as much an indication of his TT skill, but it sure is an indication of his VAM potential. If anything it's evidence he already was a very good climber, something which some people are very hard trying to deny.

 

[Franklin]

But compare Riis' rise to that of others:

1989 TdF: 89th
1991 TdF: 107th
1992 TdF: DNS/DNF?
1993 TdF: 5th

That's a pretty mercurial rise. Usually a rider acting as a domestique will still show signs of becoming a GT rider well before they actually become a GT contender - eg Lemond when riding for Hinault, Indurain for Delgado, Pantani for Chiappucci, Ullrich for Riis, etc - but Riis just came out of the depths in one big jump.

Yes, Riis is quite different in a sense that not only was he late to stardom, before that he didn't show the talent someone like Miguel Indurain did from the start.

For Miguel it's easy to argue he was deliberately brought slowly (it was openly discussed), for Riis the same thing is impossible. Just all of a sudden he became a champion. And as we know now, our suspicions are being confirmed by the man himself.

 

[Franklin]

I don't know why you responded with this post to one of my posts, I have been quite clear that 'Indurain did not just suddenly appear'.

I know you don't think that (you stated this sentiment before in the thread), but many others do.

As your post went over the humurous side it could very well be interpreted as to downplay Miguels accomplishment. I certainly know you know better, but many others obviously didn't (check the posts around that time).

The posted result is not as much an indication of his TT skill, but it sure is an indication of his VAM potential. If anything it's evidence he already was a very good climber, something which some people are very hard trying to deny.

 

[mastersracer]

Are you deliberately obtuse?

GL: noone saw Big Mig coming.

Newspapers+Articles since 1985 The young Spaniard, domestique of Pedro Delgado will one day take over the crown.

Do we have to spell it out? Pundits and experts did see a GT winner in Miguel Indurain since the start. It wasn't a secret... he was hyped for years. Greg's comment is therefore undeniably false. Miguel actually did what was expected, he took over the crown.

I'm not sure how much BS about Miguel will be kept on posting. Miguel was certainly not coming out of nowhere and he was definitely seen as a contender to be prior to anyone knew about EPO. I'm sure he did use Epo, but we don't need any falsification of history to come to that conclusion.

I love Greg, great rider, but that comment of his is ludicrous.

And before you retort: Indurain's slow buildup might be atypical... but that's not what Greg said. Also, keep in mind that Indurain was openly brought slowly. All during the end of the eighties Echevarri and Miguel themselves talked about their slow strategy in the same articles .

Once again, this was all pre-epo, so conspiracy seems to be really farfetched. Unless we now suggest Miguel started in 1985 and was a super secret test subject of Eprex...

I think you're misinterpreting what Lemond meant. Obviously, Indurain was a talent from his first pro days. But whether he was a future grand tour winner was questionable and certainly not evident from his early Tours. If you look at those early Tours, you'll see how much time he lost on the mountain stages. Frankly, this is the exact same pattern as Armstrong's early career. Around 1986, Indurain is taken on as Conconi's special project. If you believe weight loss alone turned him from a DNF Tour rider to a 5 time winner, cheers to you, but - seriously - Conconi is the master of dirty cycling, a guy who used IOC funding to develop EPO doping for riders. The only difference between Armstrong and Indurain is that Indurain is a quiet humble guy so he gets a pass...

 

[Magnus]

But compare Riis' rise to that of others:

1989 TdF: 89th
1991 TdF: 107th
1992 TdF: DNS/DNF?
1993 TdF: 5th

That's a pretty mercurial rise. Usually a rider acting as a domestique will still show signs of becoming a GT rider well before they actually become a GT contender - eg Lemond when riding for Hinault, Indurain for Delgado, Pantani for Chiappucci, Ullrich for Riis, etc - but Riis just came out of the depths in one big jump.

He didn't ride TdF in 92 (afaik). You said he was a contender out of nowhere. If you consider Riis to have been a contender for the overall in 93 you're right about coming out of nowhere (in the GC result-sense). I don't think it's reasonable to consider Riis a contender for the overall in 93:
He ended up at 16'26" in the overall. He lost 5' in the last TT and 4'40" in the first. He lost 7'21" in the first mountain stage.

IMO he made his appearance as possible gc contender on the Isola stage. Rominger for one wasn't surprised by his performance that day, seeing the work he had done for Fignon.

Some domestiques always saves a little energy to go for the glory of ending relatively high in the GC, some don't.

 

[Big Doopie]

I think you're misinterpreting what Lemond meant....

warning...there is no such thing as "grey" in the clinic.

no one is saying that indurain was not naturally good.

just perhaps not a tour winner, let alone the first to win it 5 times in a row. he was too big and did not show the historical promise that other tour winners showed on their first attempts.

his actual ascension to the throne specifically dates to the epo era.

i find it doubtful that indurain would have won the tour without epo.

 

[Magnus]

Yes, Riis is quite different in a sense that not only was he late to stardom, before that he didn't show the talent someone like Miguel Indurain did from the start.

For Miguel it's easy to argue he was deliberately brought slowly (it was openly discussed), for Riis the same thing is impossible. Just all of a sudden he became a champion. And as we know now, our suspicions are being confirmed by the man himself.

Well, not everybody thinks he "all of a sudden became a champion". Quotes regarding the '93 Isola stage:

"I had done lots of races with him in Italy and had seen how strong he was, therefore it didn't surprise me that it was him that came up to me. And I was glad it was him who came up to me on the descent because he's good at that. It was a fantastic descent where we just knew that we had to make contact before the ascent. It was one of my best."
"No I was not surprised to see Riis in that role. Maybe I was surprised that I hadn't seen him like that before"
-Claudio Chiappucci

"No I wasn't surprised to see Riis there. I have been riding for many years and have seen what he could. I have seen him working for Fignon and i have ridden a lot of races with him. He could drag his captain for hours on the front and if he got dropped he'd come back and drag on. If you can do that, and he could, then you're very very strong. It has just been a question about how he used his energy and what role you're lucky to get. From the moment he could use his energy to ride for himself i didn't doubt he could. I didn't expect to see Jaskula there. That he was i that group was the only thing that surprised me. But Riis? Not at all."
-Tony Rominger

 

[Franklin]

Obviously, Indurain was a talent from his first pro days. But whether he was a future grand tour winner was questionable and certainly not evident from his early Tours.

I'm not sure how many times this must be repeated... Indurain was seen as a future GT winner. This can't be argued, it's a fact he was seen this way.

Now if you agreed with this back in those years is a different matter (I certainly didn't believe it), but many experts this indeed look at it this way.

 

[Exroadman24902]

the authorities should seize Indurain's b samples and retest for EPO...despite the clear two sample rule, despite the fact the A sample was clean when given. I'd also like the lab in question to have their testers come forward, under oath to explain how Indurain had a + go away like Lance is alleged to have had. 1994, 2001..not much different. No DOUBLE STANDARDS in clinic!

 

[VeloCity]

the authorities should seize Indurain's b samples and retest for EPO...despite the clear two sample rule, despite the fact the A sample was clean when given. I'd also like the lab in question to have their testers come forward, under oath to explain how Indurain had a + go away like Lance is alleged to have had. 1994, 2001..not much different. No DOUBLE STANDARDS in clinic!

If Indurain was caught up in a federal investigation on doping by the Spanish government, I'd agree. But he's not.

There is a reason that Armstrong's role at USPS is being investigated by the FDA, you know, and it's not simply because he was doping.

 

[Franklin]

warning...there is no such thing as "grey" in the clinic.

no one is saying that indurain was not naturally good.

Let me uncover one of the gems in this thread:

Originally Posted by Exroadman24902
... Lemond said grand tour GC guys show it earlier on, like Lemond, Roche, Fignon did...Indurain was 5 years a non climber and then boom

This is quite frankly false, as for example was shown in 1989 at the Mountain TT.

he was too big

Didn't stop him to climb very well pre-epo....

Nor did this hinder the experts and pundits that saw him as a future GT winner...

And this is the whole point.... Indurain surely used Epo. We do not need to rewrite (falsify) history to do so. Yet some are determined to do so.

 

[Exroadman24902]

If Indurain was caught up in a federal investigation on doping by the Spanish government, I'd agree. But he's not.

There is a reason that Armstrong's role at USPS is being investigated by the FDA, you know, and it's not simply because he was doping.

One is no more a fraud than the other..only a naive person would believe the Indurain myth. None of the double standards pls. One is no worse than the other and you well know that

 

[Exroadman24902]

Let me uncover one of the gems in this thread:



This is quite frankly false, as for example was shown in 1989 at the Mountain TT.



Didn't stop him to climb very well pre-epo....

Nor did this hinder the experts and pundits that saw him as a future GT winner...

And this is the whole point.... Indurain surely used Epo. We do not need to rewrite (falsify) history to do so. Yet some are determined to do so.

from 1985 to 1988 there is no sign whatsoever of this huge, heavy tall rider becoming the best in the world in grand tours. Lemond, Roche, Fignon, all showed serious Tour de France GC form no later than the 3rd year of their careers in 1983-1984. Indurain's only sign of being a grand tour contender was in his 5th season-2 year slower than the 3 I mention. The 3 also never won 7 grand tours in 5 years and all were of much more credible size, power to weight, so putting that together-Indurain is as dodgy as Lance, entirely down to the invention fo EPO IMO

 

[VeloCity]

One is no more a fraud than the other..only a naive person would believe the Indurain myth. None of the double standards pls. One is no worse than the other and you well know that

Of course. But you're missing the point - the "authorities" can't just go back and re-test samples willy-nilly just because they feel like it, there has to be just cause (ie a legal reason) to do so. In Armstrong's case, apparently there is. In Indurain's case, there isn't. And even if Indurain was doping (which he probably was), it wasn't illegal in Spain or France back then, so what justification could the "authorities" possibly have for retesting samples from 1991?

I think we'd all be curious to see what was in Indurain's samples, but it's not likely that we're ever going to know (and that's assuming that they even still exist, which I highly doubt). But in the case of Armstrong, there's a good chance that we will know.

 

[Exroadman24902]

Of course. But you're missing the point - the "authorities" can't just go back and re-test samples willy-nilly just because they feel like it, there has to be just cause (ie a legal reason) to do so. In Armstrong's case, apparently there is. In Indurain's case, there isn't. And even if Indurain was doping (which he probably was), it wasn't illegal in Spain or France back then, so what justification could the "authorities" possibly have for retesting samples from 1991?

I think we'd all be curious to see what was in Indurain's samples, but it's not likely that we're ever going to know (and that's assuming that they even still exist, which I highly doubt). But in the case of Armstrong, there's a good chance that we will know.

so you agree Lance is as worthy as Indurain. They are no different and you know that

 

[VeloCity]

so you agree Lance is as worthy as Indurain. They are no different and you know that

Yeah, they were both doping. I get that and I agree with that. But that's not what you were saying nor what I was responding to - you said that the clinic had a double standard for not expecting Indurain be investigated in the same way that Armstrong is. If you can't understand why Armstrong is being investigated and Indurain isn't, I can't help you.

 

[Exroadman24902]

Yeah, they were both doping. I get that and I agree with that. But that's not what you were saying nor what I was responding to - you said that the clinic had a double standard for not expecting Indurain be investigated in the same way that Armstrong is. If you can't understand why Armstrong is being investigated and Indurain isn't, I can't help you.

I am only interested in the merit of their wins, their careers. I feel many on the forum don't accord them equal respect. It isn't all Lance's fault-it's a totally shared responsibility with other omerta keepers like Indurain. Lance should keep his TDF wins as Indurain will keep his.

 

[131313]

Once again, this was all pre-epo, so conspiracy seems to be really farfetched. Unless we now suggest Miguel started in 1985 and was a super secret test subject of Eprex...

I don't think that's exactly fair. "Ludicrous"? Lots of guys get hyped by the press. Taylor Tolleson was supposed to be the next great USA stage racer... I can see disagreeing with LeMond's conclusion regarding Indurain, but given Indurain's progression compared to pretty much every other multiple-time winner, his comments don't seem out of hand.

Regarding Indurain, this is the sad fact of the EPO era: no one knows. This thread could be 30 pages of speculation, but at the end of the day, it's pure conjecture. Indurain started working with Conconi in '87. No one except a very few people know what or when the alleged Godfather of EPO use in the peloton was doing with Indurain. Remember, cyclists were basically the human guinea pigs of sports doctors at this time. There's simply no telling where talent ended and the needle began once you get to riders of Indurain's generation.

 

[D-Queued]

I am only interested in the merit of their wins, their careers. I feel many on the forum don't accord them equal respect. It isn't all Lance's fault-it's a totally shared responsibility with other omerta keepers like Indurain. Lance should keep his TDF wins as Indurain will keep his.

Indurain is not an Omerta keeper. He is just shy, and not a good public speaker.

Dave.

 

[issoisso]

No you are correct in such that Rominger definitely benefited big-time from EPO and working with Ferrari. He went from being a good rider capable of winning one week races to suddenly being a top GT rider. Unless you believe that improvement was solely down to him getting his hay fever sorted.

It's not that simple.

In the very cold (meaning: no allergies) 1987 Giro, as a neo-pro, he was 2nd overall, only 10 seconds behind the pink jersey Roche after 18 stages when he crashed out.
He showed GT prowess from the start. He just couldn't handle any kind of summer race in the heat for the first 5 or so years of his career. That and he missed a few through several injuries.

As for the "did Induráin and Rominger dope?" question I see being bandied about in this topic I'm amazed anyone can even consider the possibility that they didn't. Davy testified that the Banesto team had systematized their doping, and Rominger's blood values in Ferrari's files suddenly start shooting up from 42% HcT or so in 1992 to almost 50 in 1993 and 55 in 1995 Giro.

 

[issoisso]

No you are correct in such that Rominger definitely benefited big-time from EPO and working with Ferrari. He went from being a good rider capable of winning one week races to suddenly being a top GT rider. Unless you believe that improvement was solely down to him getting his hay fever sorted.

It's not that simple.

In the very cold (meaning: no allergies) 1987 Giro, as a neo-pro, he was 2nd overall, only 10 seconds behind the pink jersey Roche after 18 stages when he crashed out.
He showed GT prowess from the start. He just couldn't handle any kind of summer race in the heat for the first 5 or so years of his career. That and he missed a few GTs through several injuries.

As for the "did Induráin and Rominger dope?" question I see being bandied about in this topic I'm amazed anyone can even consider the possibility that they didn't. Davy testified that the Banesto team had systematized their doping, and Rominger's blood values in Ferrari's files suddenly start shooting up from 42% HcT or so in 1992 to almost 50 in 1993 and 55 in the 1995 Giro.

 

[D-Queued]

It's not that simple.

...

As for the "did Induráin and Rominger dope?" question I see being bandied about in this topic I'm amazed anyone can even consider the possibility that they didn't. Davy testified that the Banesto team had systematized their doping, and Rominger's blood values in Ferrari's files suddenly start shooting up from 42% HcT or so in 1992 to almost 50 in 1993 and 55 in the 1995 Giro.

Yes, Davey said that, but that was about the situation at the time of the Festina case.

If there had been any systematized doping on Banesto prior to that, it was only so that the mortals could keep up with Big Mig.

Dave.

 

[mastersracer]

It's not that simple.

In the very cold (meaning: no allergies) 1987 Giro, as a neo-pro, he was 2nd overall, only 10 seconds behind the pink jersey Roche after 18 stages when he crashed out.
He showed GT prowess from the start. He just couldn't handle any kind of summer race in the heat for the first 5 or so years of his career. That and he missed a few GTs through several injuries.

As for the "did Induráin and Rominger dope?" question I see being bandied about in this topic I'm amazed anyone can even consider the possibility that they didn't. Davy testified that the Banesto team had systematized their doping, and Rominger's blood values in Ferrari's files suddenly start shooting up from 42% HcT or so in 1992 to almost 50 in 1993 and 55 in the 1995 Giro.

Rominger's 1994 hour ride is perhaps the greatest doped performance of all time (in cycling): if the reported numbers are accurate, he averaged 7.2 watts/kg in that ride.