Accuse me of PEDs, I'll sue you.

[Merckx index]

Boxer Manny Pacquiao is suing Floyd Mayweather, Jr. and others for accusing him without evidence of taking PES. Eat your heart out, Lance.

U.S. District Judge Larry Hicks said Pacquiao has sufficient evidence to continue his lawsuit that alleges Mayweather and others acted with malice by accusing the Filipino boxer in a series of interviews of using performance-enhancing drugs.
Pacquiao claimed in the suit that he has never tested positive for any performance-enhancing drugs, but that Mayweather, Mayweather’s father and uncle, Oscar De La Hoya and Golden Boy Promotions’ Richard Schaefer embarked on a campaign to make people think he used drugs.
“The truth did not stop Mayweather and the others,” the suit contends. “That is because they are motivated by ill will, spite, malice, revenge and envy.”

The suit began about a year ago when a planned super-fight between the two fell through because of disagreement over drug testing.

Mayweather wanted blood tests up to 14 days before the fight, while Pacquiao claimed he feels weak after drawing blood and would not agree to testing within 24 days.

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news;_ylt=AsT_Q.6q2yUM132EFBvfi8yUxLYF?slug=ap-pacquiao-mayweather

Really puts cycling in perspective. Imagine a rider refusing a passport test because he felt weakened for weeks after removal of a few ml of blood.

 

[Benotti69]

The evidence against Pacquiao has to be that an athlete at the height of fitness cannot feel weak due to a few milliliters of blood being withdrawn 24 hours before a fight? what about losing a few millilitres during the fight from a cut????

 

[Merckx index]

The evidence against Pacquiao has to be that an athlete at the height of fitness cannot feel weak due to a few milliliters of blood being withdrawn 24 hours before a fight? what about losing a few millilitres during the fight from a cut????

Not 24 hours, 24 days!!! He says he doesn't like needles, but like many boxers, he has tattoos all over his upper body. And yes, these guys frequently bleed that much during a fight.

He later agreed to the 14 day limit, which is still useless for EPO and HGH, which is probably what these boxers use. If you've ever watched old films of fights in the distant past, you may have seen fighters in the late rounds so tired they can barely stand up and go through the motions. Modern fighters go into the 12th round looking as fresh as they did in the first round. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Met de Versnelling]

Not 24 hours, 24 days!!! He says he doesn't like needles, but like many boxers, he has tattoos all over his upper body. And yes, these guys frequently bleed that much during a fight.

He later agreed to the 14 day limit, which is still useless for EPO and HGH, which is probably what these boxers use. If you've ever watched old films of fights in the distant past, you may have seen fighters in the late rounds so tired they can barely stand up and go through the motions. Modern fighters go into the 12th round looking as fresh as they did in the first round. Draw your own conclusions.

I'm sorry, do you watch boxing?

Show me a fight where 2 fighters who've been going at at it non-stop for 11 rounds look fresh as a daisy, as that's the only comparison to be made.

Boxing has slowed down as a sport over the years, it's now about waiting, waiting, waiting, and then going for the quick, sharp combinations, instead of the non-stop coming onto the opponent of years gone by.

Check out the Vazquez-Marquez quadrilogy, either 2 or 3 went the distance, they were shattered.

-----

Anyway. There's no way to prove Pac-man has ever doped, so he'll win the case.

Do i think he doped? Yeah, there's no way on earth anyone should be able to go up the weight classifications like he has in his career and still maintain his strength against guys who are naturally 20-30 pounds heavier than him.

Still one of my favourite fighters around though.

 

[spalco]

I would be surprised if there's any successful boxer/MMA fighter/kickboxer/etc. these days who's clean.

 

[jimmypop]

I would be surprised if there's any successful boxer/MMA fighter/kickboxer/etc. these days who's clean.

This. If you talk even briefly to anyone associated with MMA, you'll learn that the professionals speak openly about PED use/abuse.

 

[Benotti69]

Not 24 hours, 24 days!!! He says he doesn't like needles, but like many boxers, he has tattoos all over his upper body. And yes, these guys frequently bleed that much during a fight.

He later agreed to the 14 day limit, which is still useless for EPO and HGH, which is probably what these boxers use. If you've ever watched old films of fights in the distant past, you may have seen fighters in the late rounds so tired they can barely stand up and go through the motions. Modern fighters go into the 12th round looking as fresh as they did in the first round. Draw your own conclusions.

cheers Merckx. my bad.

It seems Pacquiao is being stupid and drawing attention to his doping. How can cyclists pass the vampires and boxers cant. Stupid, but stupid is as stupid does and if it highlights how many sports are doping maybe governments will introduce criminal sentences and fines for dopers.

 

[ergmonkey]

I'm pretty new to this squabble. Did Mayweather, et al come right out and say 'this guy takes drugs,' or did they just talk suggestively about actual, suspicious, circumstantial evidence on Pacquiao?

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Mayweather was asking for testing beyond the commission's requirements. Mayweather is a punk. Good for Pacman for not testing more than required and suing the punks.

 

[Paco_P]

I'm sorry, do you watch boxing?

Show me a fight where 2 fighters who've been going at at it non-stop for 11 rounds look fresh as a daisy, as that's the only comparison to be made.

Boxing has slowed down as a sport over the years, it's now about waiting, waiting, waiting, and then going for the quick, sharp combinations, instead of the non-stop coming onto the opponent of years gone by.

Check out the Vazquez-Marquez quadrilogy, either 2 or 3 went the distance, they were shattered.

-----

Anyway. There's no way to prove Pac-man has ever doped, so he'll win the case.

Do i think he doped? Yeah, there's no way on earth anyone should be able to go up the weight classifications like he has in his career and still maintain his strength against guys who are naturally 20-30 pounds heavier than him.

Still one of my favourite fighters around though.

While I like Juan Manuel more than Rafael, and think he got screwed in the Pac-Man fight, it seems pretty clear that in boxing, which has always been the dirtiest professional sport in every conceivable sense, some kind of doping is common place, although it is also true that quite often one sees a fighter who is clearly not ready for even 6 or 7 rounds, and is beat for tired from then on.

 

[Met de Versnelling]

While I like Juan Manuel more than Rafael, and think he got screwed in the Pac-Man fight, it seems pretty clear that in boxing, which has always been the dirtiest professional sport in every conceivable sense, some kind of doping is common place, although it is also true that quite often one sees a fighter who is clearly not ready for even 6 or 7 rounds, and is beat for tired from then on.

Oh, in no way am i saying it's a clean sport, i just thought the "fresh looking" comment was way out of line. I think there's a certain level of look the other way, and do the bare minimum in terms of combating doping. However, given the nature of the sport, i think the people and fans are prepared to look the other way too. When the Mayweather comments broke first, there was more disappointment in Money Boy saying this stuff, instead of wondering about the implications.

Agreed on on the JMM-Pacman fight as well. The history of the last few years in boxing could have been so different if he'd got that decision.

 

[Merckx index]

I'm sorry, do you watch boxing?

Show me a fight where 2 fighters who've been going at at it non-stop for 11 rounds look fresh as a daisy, as that's the only comparison to be made.

Boxing has slowed down as a sport over the years, it's now about waiting, waiting, waiting, and then going for the quick, sharp combinations, instead of the non-stop coming onto the opponent of years gone by.

Definitely not true for PacMan, who averages about a hundred punches a round. Or Paul Williams, for example. There have always been different styles. Some guys, like Pac, are very aggressive, others, like Floyd, are very cautious and defensive-minded. But my point is that aggressive boxers like Pac are fresh right to the end. If you saw his most recent fights against Cotto, Clottey and Margarito, you should know what I mean.

Mayweather was asking for testing beyond the commission's requirements. Mayweather is a punk. Good for Pacman for not testing more than required and suing the punks.

I agree FM is a punk, and asking for more stringent doping tests was probably an attempt to get into Manny’s head. But it was still a reasonable request (Moseley had no problem agreeing with it in his fight against Floyd), and Manny’s excuse was pathetic. I like the guy, know people who are close to him, but this was not his finest moment. In what other sport will guys turn down 40-50 million over an issue like this?

 

[Race Radio]

FM is dodging Pac. He is a punk. Pac agreed to his 14 day demand then FM chickened out.

Pac is such an amazing fighter to watch. His precision is amazing......but there are few in the sport that think he is clean.

 

[Merckx index]

Agreed on on the JMM-Pacman fight as well. The history of the last few years in boxing could have been so different if he'd got that decision.

For sure. A split decision which Pac won by a single point. That point came down to a knockdown in the third round. JMM won the first two rounds, and was winning the third round until that knockdown, which came in the final 30 seconds or so. That knock down gave Pac one point, and he got another over JMM by winning the round, though JMM had won it for most of the round.
If that fight had been a draw, let alone a loss for Pac, no fight with Diaz for the lightweight belt. No Diaz fight and win, and no fight with Oscar. And the rest is history. Whether Pac ever would have fought Hatton, let alone gone up to welterweight, we can only speculate on, but he certainly wouldn’t have gotten those fights with big names right away.

FM is dodging Pac. He is a punk. Pac agreed to his 14 day demand then FM chickened out.

It does seem that way, though I would be more certain if Pac had agreed to testing right up to a day or two before the fight. Remember, the 14 day limit was a compromise, Floyd’s original demand was up to the fight. He might have insisted on going back to that. No one except the major players seems to be sure there were even real negotiations later on.

Pac is such an amazing fighter to watch. His precision is amazing......but there are few in the sport that think he is clean.

Let’s give Freddie a lot of credit, too. And his trainer Arriza. If I understand his program correctly, it’s designed to train specific muscles to do specific things. Let’s see how Khan turns out. Hope he and Bradley square off.

 

[Met de Versnelling]

Definitely not true for PacMan, who averages about a hundred punches a round. Or Paul Williams, for example. There have always been different styles. Some guys, like Pac, are very aggressive, others, like Floyd, are very cautious and defensive-minded. But my point is that aggressive boxers like Pac are fresh right to the end. If you saw his most recent fights against Cotto, Clottey and Margarito, you should know what I mean.


<snip>

Yeah, good point. Like i said earlier in the thread, i don't think he's clean, but there's definitely been a trend to boxing off the back foot, the amount of explosive bangers has definitely dropped, or at least it seems. Maybe that's just me listening to what my grandad used to say about boxing for all the time he watched it (i'm only 22), so i only know late 90's onwards first hand.

(sorry for the harsh-ness of my "do you watch boxing", it'd been a bad day )

-----

Agree whole heartedly with you about Roach, best trainer out there atm. The work he's done with Khan is amazing, his fight against Maidana showed the changes he'd made, and improvements that Roach had made to him. Without Roach's tutalage, i'm certain Khan would have lost that war in the 6-7-8 rounds, if not earlier. The Bredis Prescott match was an aberration i feel, just never saw the punch. (Still think he's a bit too chinny to break into the top ranks of the most hotly contested weight limits atm)

 

[Met de Versnelling]

FM is dodging Pac. He is a punk. Pac agreed to his 14 day demand then FM chickened out.

Pac is such an amazing fighter to watch. His precision is amazing......but there are few in the sport that think he is clean.

I know why FM's ducking Pac, but at the same time, i think FM's the only man out there (apart from JMM who's effectively beaten Pac twice in most observers eyes) who would beat Pac atm.

Pac-man. On a Lance like program

(I jest)

 

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, do you watch boxing?

Show me a fight where 2 fighters who've been going at at it non-stop for 11 rounds look fresh as a daisy, as that's the only comparison to be made.

Boxing has slowed down as a sport over the years, it's now about waiting, waiting, waiting, and then going for the quick, sharp combinations, instead of the non-stop coming onto the opponent of years gone by.

Check out the Vazquez-Marquez quadrilogy, either 2 or 3 went the distance, they were shattered.

-----

Anyway. There's no way to prove Pac-man has ever doped, so he'll win the case.

Do i think he doped? Yeah, there's no way on earth anyone should be able to go up the weight classifications like he has in his career and still maintain his strength against guys who are naturally 20-30 pounds heavier than him.

Still one of my favourite fighters around though.

Nope, that isn't the standard. He has to prove that those he is suing KNEW that their statements were false when they made them. Its almost impossible to prove, and all the judge did was allow a doper to spend more of his money to try to accomplish something that few ever succeed in doing. Of course, the cost of defense is punishment enough, and the press he gets for it makes a PR impact. But as for him winning the case, very doubtful.

 

[Merckx index]

Yeah, good point. Like i said earlier in the thread, i don't think he's clean, but there's definitely been a trend to boxing off the back foot, the amount of explosive bangers has definitely dropped, or at least it seems. Maybe that's just me listening to what my grandad used to say about boxing for all the time he watched it (i'm only 22), so i only know late 90's onwards first hand.

I’m definitely not an authority on boxing, I knew squat about it until I met someone who was close to MP, and went from there. One very controversial view I have is that today’s elite, like Manny and Floyd, are better than the best of the past, including the untouchable Sugar Ray Robinson. There probably isn’t an experienced observer of boxing who would buy into this (well, maybe Bob Arum), but I look at other sports, where results can be quantitated, and it’s very clear that today’s athletes are stronger, faster, quicker and more enduring than those of the past. Some of this is training, some is PEDS, but the actual fact of better performance is incontestable.

Since those qualities are a major part of boxing, to me it only stands to reason that today’s boxers come into the ring with a big edge over those of the past. That still leaves the mental/strategic aspects, which boxers will tell you counts for more than anything else (look how far JMM has got with what he has), but it just seems to me that if today’s boxers on average are stronger and faster and have more endurance than those of the past, then today’s best are probably better than the best of the past. No way to prove this, of course. But for those who argue against it, I suggest that if we didn’t have stop watches, all the old-timers would be saying no one was ever faster than Jesse Owens.

I know why FM's ducking Pac, but at the same time, i think FM's the only man out there (apart from JMM who's effectively beaten Pac twice in most observers eyes) who would beat Pac atm.

One theory is that Floyd is waiting for Manny to wear himself out in these fights against larger opponents. I assume part of his strategy is not to go to jail so he can’t fight anyone, but it’s working out that way.

I don’t think JMM would have a prayer with Manny at welterweight—he looked lost against Floyd--and would still be outmatched at 140. A good fight at 135 maybe, but Manny will not go that low. I think Berto is the best opponent right now, if not for the Haiti disaster he would have fought Moseley, and if he had won, as I think he would have, he might be Manny’s opponent instead of Shane.

Who else? At 154, I think Sergio Martinez is just too big for Manny. Even if he couldn’t dominate Manny, he would hurt him very badly. How about James Kirkland? I’ve never seen him fight, he’s been in jail and probation until recently, but some say he’s the most exciting fighter on the planet, even more exciting than Manny. That fight would be real nonstop action, more than the Margarito one. But Manny might understandably not want to fight someone that big, either.

Nope, that isn't the standard. He has to prove that those he is suing KNEW that their statements were false when they made them. Its almost impossible to prove, and all the judge did was allow a doper to spend more of his money to try to accomplish something that few ever succeed in doing. Of course, the cost of defense is punishment enough, and the press he gets for it makes a PR impact. But as for him winning the case, very doubtful.

I agree completely (and your post makes the discussion here relevant to the Clinic again). And to make the odds even higher, if Floyd ever extracts himself from his legal problems and gets back to the negotiating table, dropping that suit will be one of his first demands, one Pac will have no problem acceding to.

 

[BroDeal]

Since those qualities are a major part of boxing, to me it only stands to reason that today’s boxers come into the ring with a big edge over those of the past. That still leaves the mental/strategic aspects, which boxers will tell you counts for more than anything else (look how far JMM has got with what he has), but it just seems to me that if today’s boxers on average are stronger and faster and have more endurance than those of the past, then today’s best are probably better than the best of the past. No way to prove this, of course. But for those who argue against it, I suggest that if we didn’t have stop watches, all the old-timers would be saying no one was ever faster than Jesse Owens.

I don't think so. Boxing today is a dying sport. Pacquiao is certainly a bright spot, but the level of competition is not what it used to be twenty years ago. It is not even what it was ten years ago. Many weight divisions are a joke, most glaringly the heavyweight div, which was always boxing's premiere division. The number of fighers ranked in the top ten of their division who are out of shape and/or lacking in basic technical skills is really amazing.

I knew the sport was a goner when Chris Bird decided that there was not enough money at cruiser weight so he moved up to heavyweight by chowing junkfood. Even as a soft doughboy, he was still reasonably competitive. Heck, the reign of Lummox Lewis showed that the sport was in a tailspin.

 

[Merckx index]

I don't think so. Boxing today is a dying sport. Pacquiao is certainly a bright spot, but the level of competition is not what it used to be twenty years ago. It is not even what it was ten years ago. Many weight divisions are a joke, most glaringly the heavyweight div, which was always boxing's premiere division. The number of fighers ranked in the top ten of their division who are out of shape and/or lacking in basic technical skills is really amazing.

I knew the sport was a goner when Chris Bird decided that there was not enough money at cruiser weight so he moved up to heavyweight by chowing junkfood. Even as a soft doughboy, he was still reasonably competitive. Heck, the reign of Lummox Lewis showed that the sport was in a tailspin.

I’m not too familiar with the heavyweight division, but maybe you mean Chris Arreola? Or if not, he would be another example of what you’re saying. I agree that that division seems like a joke, except for the Klitschkos and maybe David Haye (who may appear better than they are because of the weakness of the opposition). But I don’t think this is true for all divisions. A major problem for the heavyweight division is that there are more attractive options. In America, a guy that size with exceptional athletic ability can make big bucks with maybe much less effort and certainly less risk in the NFL, NBA, or maybe MLB. In Europe you have their kind of football as well as basketball. This was not as true several decades ago as it is now, and I think this is a major reason why there are no Americans who are top heavyweight contenders.

I often wonder how good a boxer someone like Michael Jordan could have been, if that had been his main option. He was so quick it’s easy to forget he not only would have been a heavyweight, but taller and heavier than most in that division. I have to think that his combination of speed and size would have been lethal. In any case, if you consider all the exceptional athletes in football, baseball and boxing, I think there must be a few who could have become excellent boxers.

I think boxing still attracts top talent in the lower weight divisions. Again, not so much in America and the rest of the West, because most males in developed countries are too large to fight in those divisions (I think statistics show that the average male in the West is significantly larger than he was in the past, because of better nutrition). Someone like Floyd is relatively rare, an outstanding athlete who never could have made it as a football or basketball player because of his size, and even in baseball his options would have been severely limited. OTOH, the third world, particularly Mexico and some African countries, makes a larger contribution than it did in the past. And men in these countries tend to be smaller, so there is a larger pool out of the population at large that are candidates for these lower divisions. There are some very good fighters at 140 and 126, for example, and Donaire at 118 is talked about as the next Pacquiao.

I can't disagree with your point that there are highly ranked guys in many maybe most divisions who are not in that great shape. I'm just not so sure that that's a new phenomenon. Seems to me that in every sport now as in the past there are athletes who make it mostly on talent.