Alberto Contador suspended until August 2012 (loses all results July 2010 - Jan 2012)

[Publicus]

I think this is the rub. CAS essentially admits that it was more than likely the result of ingesting a contaminated supplement [snip] .

(1) To the first highlighted - no, not really. CAS said that supplement contamination was "more likely" than the other scenarios presented, but they then clarified that they were not convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt". [from 487 of the decision - posted below]

To the Blue - if AC has argued that it was through supplements then he would have had the opportunity to show that he (& Astana) took precautions in what they used. Simply put, in comparison to all the other theories presented there was a lack of evidence to prove/disprove this theory.

Good - can you then show how what I said in the my earlier response to you is in some way incorrect - because your above response insinuates that I deliberately did not highlight something of relevance.


My earlier post:

In point (1) above you are challenging my statement "CAS essentially admits that it was more than likely the result of ingesting a contaminated supplement" as being false (your comment "no, not really"). You then proceed to establish your argument by noting that even though CAS says it was more than likely the case, they "clarified that they were not convinced 'beyond a reasonable doubt'" that ingestion of a contaminated substance ACTUALLY happen. But that is not ALL that CAS stated. They went on to state "This [BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT] is not required by the UCI ADR or WADA..." By partially highlighting the paragraph, you give the impression that CAS has to find beyond a reasonable doubt that CB entered his system by ingesting of a contaminated supplement. In fact, in the very next sentence they state that the beyond a reasonable standard is not applicable here, that it only has to be more than likely. Hence, my statement that "CAS essentially admits that [CB entered his system] more than likely [as a] result of ingesting a contaminated supplement..." is actually correct and support by the plain reading of paragraph 487.

So what you were insinuating was incorrect.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

In point (1) above you are challenging my statement "CAS essentially admits that it was more than likely the result of ingesting a contaminated supplement" as being false (your comment "no, not really"). You then proceed to establish your argument by noting that even though CAS says it was more than likely the case, they "clarified that they were not convinced 'beyond a reasonable doubt'" that ingestion of a contaminated substance ACTUALLY happen. But that is not ALL that CAS stated. They went on to state "This [BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT] is not required by the UCI ADR or WADA..." By partially highlighting the paragraph, you give the impression that CAS has to find beyond a reasonable doubt that CB entered his system by ingesting of a contaminated supplement. In fact, in the very next sentence they state that the beyond a reasonable standard is not applicable here, that it only has to be more than likely. Hence, my statement that "CAS essentially admits that [CB entered his system] more than likely [as a] result of ingesting a contaminated supplement..." is actually correct and support by the plain reading of paragraph 487.

So what you were insinuate was incorrect.

I did not "give an impression" - I highlighted the relevant part to my earlier opinion. Nothing more.

I made no comment, one way or the other on what was the burden of proof - I correctly quoted the full text of the relevant CAS decision.
As I did not insinuate anything it is not incorrect - but you insinuated that I did not highlight something relevant, which I did not.

 

[Merckx index]

So Contador's team presented evidence/testimony that (A) he didn't take supplements on those days, (B) list of all supplements provide by team, (C) testified that he only took supplements provided by the team to avoid ingesting contaminated supplements, and (D) that manufacturers were taking reasonable precautions to ensure that there were no prohibited substances in any of the substances. As such I don't think it is accurate to say that he didn't present any evidence to establish that the contaminated supplement was not likely. All that is presented on the other side is conjecture (not even circumstantial evidence): (1) Hardy's supplement had CB, so there it is possible that supplements are contaminated and (2) despite testimony to the contrary, it is possible that AC took some unknown supplement that was contaminated. How CAS reaches this conclusion based on the evidence presented is beyond me (there is NO evidence that WADA impeached AC or any of the other teammates direct testimony on what supplements they used during the TdF). I think it is particularly galling that the impose the 2 year sanction without reduction because (1) "the exact contaminated supplement is unknown" and (2) the "circumstances of its ingestion are equally unknown". Simply unbelievable.

This is an excellent post. It's hard to look at that evidence and conclude that a contaminated supplement is the most likely possibility. I think the panel concluded this because:
a) they had to come up with some scenario, and contaminated supplement has a precedent, whereas transfusion really doesn't and contamination, in Europe, doesn't, either; b) if they had concluded transfusion, they would have had a hard time explaining why he wasn't sanctioned for two offenses, not one; c) contamination of meat was always off the table, the panel said they frankly thought the possibility was close to zero.

I also agree that he should have been given one year. I can only speculate that if he had put forth the supplement explanation at the outset, assuming it really was the case and he had in fact taken some supplement on his own, that he would have gotten one year. I think they are giving him two because the implication is he must have taken it on his own and lied about it.

But I think Bert is telling the truth here. Why take a supplement not approved by the team in the middle of the Tour? It's not going to have that much effect on performance, and doesn't seem worth the risk.

What does this leave? Maybe the approved supplements are contaminated, and just haven't been tested at a low enough level? I appreciate they don't use CB in the process, but CB has now been found in river water, not drinking water, but maybe water used in manufacturing? Just a wild-*** idea.

 

[Publicus]

I did not "give an impression" - I highlighted the relevant part to my earlier opinion. Nothing more.

I made no comment, one way or the other on what was the burden of proof - I correctly quoted the full text of the relevant CAS decision.
As I did not insinuate anything it is not incorrect - but you insinuated that I did not highlight something relevant, which I did not.

LOL. Okay Doctor.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

LOL. Okay Doctor.

With respect - I think you missed the relevant part of my earlier post in the opening paragraph when I stated "more likely of the scenarios presented" and instead assumed my position (to something irrelevant)

Because like yourself I am not entirely satisfied with the CAS supplement theory.

 

[Publicus]

With respect - I think you missed the relevant part of my earlier post in the opening paragraph when I stated "more likely of the scenarios presented" and instead assumed my position (to something irrelevant)

Because like yourself I am not entirely satisfied with the CAS supplement theory.

I understood your post. I didnt think your correction was warranted. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

The chickern chirping
http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/article1704176.ece

Chicken on Contador judgment: Embarrassing
google translator ftw.

basically it just says that "The chicken", Michael Rasmussen, is puzzled that it has taken 1,5 years to convict Contador because the rules are clear..Then he says that Riis should focus on stage hunting in TDF and the GC in the Vuelta, and that he thinks we could already now crown the winner of the 2012 Vuelta... (Thanks Hugo Koblet)

 

[sniper]

AC hasn't lost his sense of humor:

http://media.zenfs.com/de-DE/blogs/tourdefrance-de/AC.jpg

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I understood your post. I didnt think your correction was warranted. Let's agree to disagree.

Well, if you understood my post - then why did you bring up that I did not highlight something, which was irrelevant?

You're a lawyer, right?
You stated that "CAS essentially admits that it was more than likely..." - I merely brought notice to the relevant point that CAS ruled it was the "most likely" of the "scenarios presented" - as a lawyer I thought you'd appreciate the distinction between CAS giving an answer that is legally sound yet logically questionable.

 

[LaFlorecita]

AC hasn't lost his sense of humor:

http://media.zenfs.com/de-DE/blogs/tourdefrance-de/AC.jpg

I can't see what's so humorous about it.

 

[Pandora]

In hindsight he should have taken his one year slap on the wrist and been back to last year Vuelta. I'm a lot less sure the UCI would have apealed that decision.

But accepting that slap on the wrist would've been admission of the guilt in his eyes. It was inacceptable, he said as much. At least he doesn't speak in riddles.

So wether we think Cantador should be suspended or not, I think we all agree that the way this case have been handled and allowed to drag on is a complete travesty.

I completely agree.
And in the end of the day such a pythian verdict...

Cantador? Why is that?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Try working with Facts and not plain emotion. He was banned becasue he cheated. If the Spanish Federation had done their job properly and the Spanish President hadn't politicized things further, then it would not have dragged on for so long, but he would still have been banned.

But he cheated, he was caught and now he pays the penalty.

You piti him, but what about felling sorry for the guys who would have legitimately won the races he cheated in. The other guys may well be cheating too but they haven't been caught. Whereas Contador was caught with CB in his system and has paid the penalty.

Sigh...

This is the last time I'm going to explain this,

HE ISN'T BANNED BECAUSE HE CHEATED.

HE IS BANNED, BECAUSE HE COULDN'T PROVE CONTAMINATED MEAT WAS THE MOST LIKELY SOURCE.

ACCORDING TO CAS, THE CONTAMINATED MEAT THEORY AND THE BLOOD TRANSFUSION THEORY ARE BOTH HIGHLY UNLIKELY,

AND THEY THINK THAT THE MOST LIKELY CAUSE IS A CONTAMINATED FOOD SUPPLEMENT.

SO, BASICALLY, HE HASN'T PROVEN CONTAMINATED MEAT WAS THE MOST LIKELY THEORY, BECAUSE A CONTAMINATED SUPPLEMENT IS THE MOST LIKELY THEORY, ACCORING TO CAS.

SO, HE HASN'T DONE WHAT HE HAD TO DO TO BE CLEARED, SO HE'S BANNED.

ALSO, CAS ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGES IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY ALBERTO DID DOPE.

Understand it now? Any questions?

 

[Jeanne]

AC hasn't lost his sense of humor:

http://media.zenfs.com/de-DE/blogs/tourdefrance-de/AC.jpg

the first part of the quote is one thing...but saying he's and was surrounded by people who categorically reject doping really takes the cake

from when is that quote, btw?

 

[Fidolix]

AC hasn't lost his sense of humor:

http://media.zenfs.com/de-DE/blogs/tourdefrance-de/AC.jpg

And you obvious lost your sense of reality!

 

[Winternet_]

the first part of the quote is one thing...but saying he's and was surrounded by people who categorically reject doping really takes the cake

from when is that quote, btw?

Duders, everyone says that. And everyone is surrounded by people who rejects doping. And everyone is surrounded by people who have doped.

Guess CAPS are in town.

 

[Fidolix]

Sigh...

This is the last time I'm going to explain this,

HE ISN'T BANNED BECAUSE HE CHEATED.

HE IS BANNED, BECAUSE HE COULDN'T PROVE CONTAMINATED MEAT WAS THE MOST LIKELY SOURCE.

ACCORDING TO CAS, THE CONTAMINATED MEAT THEORY AND THE BLOOD TRANSFUSION THEORY ARE BOTH HIGHLY UNLIKELY,

AND THEY THINK THAT THE MOST LIKELY CAUSE IS A CONTAMINATED FOOD SUPPLEMENT.

SO, BASICALLY, HE HASN'T PROVEN CONTAMINATED MEAT WAS THE MOST LIKELY THEORY, BECAUSE A CONTAMINATED SUPPLEMENT IS THE MOST LIKELY THEORY, ACCORING TO CAS.

SO, HE HASN'T DONE WHAT HE HAD TO DO TO BE CLEARED, SO HE'S BANNED.

ALSO, CAS ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGES IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY ALBERTO DID DOPE.

Understand it now? Any questions?

Forget it Flo, it´s like talking to a monkey using sign language!

 

[sniper]

the first part of the quote is one thing...but saying he's and was surrounded by people who categorically reject doping really takes the cake

from when is that quote, btw?

the quote must be from sometime between August 2010 and present.
It was quoted in today's eurosport column on the case:
http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs...hläge-härtesten-rennen-003149936.html#more-id

 

[sniper]

Sigh...

This is the last time I'm going to explain this,

HE ISN'T BANNED BECAUSE HE CHEATED.

HE IS BANNED, BECAUSE HE COULDN'T PROVE CONTAMINATED MEAT WAS THE MOST LIKELY SOURCE.

ACCORDING TO CAS, THE CONTAMINATED MEAT THEORY AND THE BLOOD TRANSFUSION THEORY ARE BOTH HIGHLY UNLIKELY,

AND THEY THINK THAT THE MOST LIKELY CAUSE IS A CONTAMINATED FOOD SUPPLEMENT.

SO, BASICALLY, HE HASN'T PROVEN CONTAMINATED MEAT WAS THE MOST LIKELY THEORY, BECAUSE A CONTAMINATED SUPPLEMENT IS THE MOST LIKELY THEORY, ACCORING TO CAS.

SO, HE HASN'T DONE WHAT HE HAD TO DO TO BE CLEARED, SO HE'S BANNED.

ALSO, CAS ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGES IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY ALBERTO DID DOPE.

Understand it now? Any questions?

Well, yes I have one. If it is as you say it is, why has AC been banned?


the poor b@st@rd.
All he had to do was to choose the right escape-route (contaminated food supplement), but unfortunately, he himself denied that as a possibility..
the irony of the case is montypythonesque..

 

[Fidolix]

Try working with Facts and not plain emotion. He was banned becasue he cheated. If the Spanish Federation had done their job properly and the Spanish President hadn't politicized things further, then it would not have dragged on for so long, but he would still have been banned.

But he cheated, he was caught and now he pays the penalty.

You piti him, but what about felling sorry for the guys who would have legitimately won the races he cheated in. The other guys may well be cheating too but they haven't been caught. Whereas Contador was caught with CB in his system and has paid the penalty.

Maybe you should get your facts straight buddy, especially when using words like cheat, caught and penalty.
Hes NOT a cheat, he got CAS words saying he isn´t, live with it!

 

[Fidolix]

Well, yes I have one. If it is as you say it is, why has AC been banned?


the poor b@st@rd.
All he had to do was to choose the right escape-route (contaminated food supplement), but unfortunately, he himself denied that as a possibility..
the irony of the case is montypythonesque..

Because of strict liability, got it now?

 

[LaFlorecita]

and you obvious lost your sense of reality!

+100000000000 lol!!

 

[LaFlorecita]

Well, yes I have one. If it is as you say it is, why has AC been banned?


the poor b@st@rd.
All he had to do was to choose the right escape-route (contaminated food supplement), but unfortunately, he himself denied that as a possibility..
the irony of the case is montypythonesque..

*facepalm* I hope you're not serious. I really hope. Or you must be blind because I actually stated the answer to your question in the post you replied to.

 

[LaFlorecita]

the quote must be from sometime between August 2010 and present.
It was quoted in today's eurosport column on the case:
http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs...hläge-härtesten-rennen-003149936.html#more-id

Why are you constantly checking the German media? Because that makes you feel good because they agree with you? Jesus Christ, for fvck's sake. Those Germans are only constantly accusing riders of doping, they don't care for anything other than doping in this sport. Generally, Germans are nice people, but this makes me hate the country like I've never done before.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Forget it Flo, it´s like talking to a monkey using sign language!

I know. I feel like I'm working in a kindergarten or something like that.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Evans: Ban for Contador victory in fight against doping.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if he actually thinks Alberto is a doper. And to think I actually started to like him...

Vamos Samu! Forza Vincenzo! Win the Tour!