Alexandre Vinokourov

[biker77]

Firstly, thanks.

Secondly, re. Rumsas - what I respected was not his character, but rather, his God-given natural talent as an athlete. I raced against him many times that year, and I was obviously doped, and he may or may not have been doped, but he possessed abilities on a bike that came from his DNA - and I respected that talent. Granted, it took training to realize the full potential of his ability, and he apparently used medicine at various times to supersede his natural limits, but what limits they were! He was like a moto! Beautiful to watch, even as he left you behind, writhing and thrashing about in O2 debt.

As for the wife-rotting-in-jail-thing...yeah, ouch. Not very chivalrous. Of course, maybe SHE told HIM to leave her, and save himself!

Thanks for posting on the forum Joe. You have more knowledge of things cycling than most of us, so it is interesting to read your posts. How can you have respect for Rumsas? Every time the guy rode away from you he probably left a cloud of PED fumes behind him.

 

[Franklin]

This is a photo that I would REALLY like to see be reprised in the modern-day:

I miss Jan, he was the last one I really was a big fan of. I hope he gets some peace and quiet now, but I fear the German judicial will cut him and dry him.

And the crying about Vino... at leas it's interesting and fun. To me it seems tongue in cheek.. love he gesture. And about him dissinf JB... well, who knows what happened? What we do know is that the team was made for Vino... he got the sponsors and the cash. Would we agree if a team we buld up kept us out after we did the time?

Joe is bang on the money. MR, RR, AV.... they did their time and deserve their spot in the fold.

 

[joe_papp]

Thanks for posting on the forum Joe. You have more knowledge of things cycling than most of us, so it is interesting to read your posts. How can you have respect for Rumsas? Every time the guy rode away from you he probably left a cloud of PED fumes behind him.

I can respect him because we were effectively equals. I lacked for no doping product when we raced against each other, and IF he was doping I can't IMAGINE (speculating) that he did, either (lack for a particular product). Ergo, we were on a level playing field and he crushed me. Repeatedly. Just as I imagine that if I was clean and he was clean and we lined up next to each other at the bottom of some 10km climb, he would CRUSH me. Repeatedly.

I don't know enough about him to (dis)respect Rumsas the man. But with regards to the Rumsas that refers to this mass of cells that could pedal a bike - THAT thing I respect.

I guess it's sometimes forgotten in the doping debate that even though EPO and transfusions really make for staggering performance gains, they won't take a D3-level rider and give him the capacity to finish on the podium of the Tour. You've got to have a high level of natural talent and a willingness to train and apply yourself before you can even hope to benefit from dope (as far as getting into the upper echelons of the pro peloton goes).

NOTE: I HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF R. RUMSAS EVER HAVING DOPED AT ANY TIME, AND IN NO WAY INTEND TO IMPLY THAT I POSSES SUCH KNOWLEDGE. (but who's kidding who? didn't he test + 2x?)

Whoa, sorry, I just looked up and saw that this is in a non-clinic forum. I'm going to leave my post here though, and if the mods want to move it they can.

Sorry to Vino for hijacking his thread. Vino 4-Ever! (I'm going to change my FB status to that right now I think).

PS. I enjoy posting here, as you all are interested in debate and most contribute constructively to it. I appreciate having the chance to simply discuss pro cycling nowadays, since in most corners of the sport there is a frostiness that puts me off.

 

[180mmCrank]

This is a continuation of a thread that started in the racing forum...

 

[Carl0880]

I can respect him because we were effectively equals. I lacked for no doping product when we raced against each other, and IF he was doping I can't IMAGINE (speculating) that he did, either (lack for a particular product). Ergo, we were on a level playing field and he crushed me. Repeatedly. Just as I imagine that if I was clean and he was clean and we lined up next to each other at the bottom of some 10km climb, he would CRUSH me. Repeatedly.

I don't know enough about him to (dis)respect Rumsas the man. But with regards to the Rumsas that refers to this mass of cells that could pedal a bike - THAT thing I respect.

I guess it's sometimes forgotten in the doping debate that even though EPO and transfusions really make for staggering performance gains, they won't take a D3-level rider and give him the capacity to finish on the podium of the Tour. You've got to have a high level of natural talent and a willingness to train and apply yourself before you can even hope to benefit from dope (as far as getting into the upper echelons of the pro peloton goes).

NOTE: I HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF R. RUMSAS EVER HAVING DOPED AT ANY TIME, AND IN NO WAY INTEND TO IMPLY THAT I POSSES SUCH KNOWLEDGE. (but who's kidding who? didn't he test + 2x?)

Whoa, sorry, I just looked up and saw that this is in a non-clinic forum. I'm going to leave my post here though, and if the mods want to move it they can.

Sorry to Vino for hijacking his thread. Vino 4-Ever! (I'm going to change my FB status to that right now I think).

PS. I enjoy posting here, as you all are interested in debate and most contribute constructively to it. I appreciate having the chance to simply discuss pro cycling nowadays, since in most corners of the sport there is a frostiness that puts me off.

I can't speak for others, but as far as myself is concern you are an expert in the field of cycling because you have been there. Have you made a mistake? Yes. Have you paid the price? Yes. Like you have mentioned, all an individual can do is serve the banned they are giving. Its not up to us to decide if the ban was right, or long enough, or too short. I think that is a problem I find with many people.

Too many people want these guys to have life time bans or longer ones then the 2 year bans currently. You cant, these are the rules and as long as the athlete has served them, then in my opinion they should receive a second chance. Heck, I have seen murderers paroled and allowed a second chance in life, I sure don't see how a cyclist found to dope could be asked to be not allowed back.

I look forward to hear more imput from you, andhave respect for your opinion. You are honest, and forthright. That is all I want to see from someone.

 

[blackcat]

I can respect him because we were effectively equals. I lacked for no doping product when we raced against each other, and IF he was doping I can't IMAGINE (speculating) that he did, either (lack for a particular product). Ergo, we were on a level playing field and he crushed me. Repeatedly. Just as I imagine that if I was clean and he was clean and we lined up next to each other at the bottom of some 10km climb, he would CRUSH me. Repeatedly.

I don't know enough about him to (dis)respect Rumsas the man. But with regards to the Rumsas that refers to this mass of cells that could pedal a bike - THAT thing I respect.

I guess it's sometimes forgotten in the doping debate that even though EPO and transfusions really make for staggering performance gains, they won't take a D3-level rider and give him the capacity to finish on the podium of the Tour. You've got to have a high level of natural talent and a willingness to train and apply yourself before you can even hope to benefit from dope (as far as getting into the upper echelons of the pro peloton goes).

NOTE: I HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF R. RUMSAS EVER HAVING DOPED AT ANY TIME, AND IN NO WAY INTEND TO IMPLY THAT I POSSES SUCH KNOWLEDGE. (but who's kidding who? didn't he test + 2x?)

Whoa, sorry, I just looked up and saw that this is in a non-clinic forum. I'm going to leave my post here though, and if the mods want to move it they can.

Sorry to Vino for hijacking his thread. Vino 4-Ever! (I'm going to change my FB status to that right now I think).

PS. I enjoy posting here, as you all are interested in debate and most contribute constructively to it. I appreciate having the chance to simply discuss pro cycling nowadays, since in most corners of the sport there is a frostiness that puts me off.

dont know about that Joe.

Frank Schleck had no results as an espoir. He was decidedly mediocre. Not animating Worlds, or big races in the u23 or d3.

Some guys have a limited in one or two parameters of their physiology, puts a natural ceiling on their potential as d3. But if it is O2 delivery, and they can get on a program, suddenly they resolve that deficiency. Boom, major Protour big hitter.

What about if you have naturally high O2 delivery, and you cannot exhaust the aerobic system, it is local muscular failure. So your O2 is so high, it is not limiting.

That is a talent. It is a talent, albeit unseen, and indirect. It is also a talent, easily neutralised by the doctors, for the athletes who exhaust their O2 and it is a limiting factor which puts a ceiling on their talent like d3.

 

[biker77]

I have no personal knowledge of doping at all, but I think the PEDs create two playing fields. Both may be level, but ceratinly not equal.

Sorry to other posters for getting the thread bumped. I am trying to stay out of the clinic, but always seem to end back here.

Typo was originally a mistake, but I figured it is appropriate.

 

[180mmCrank]

I have no personal knowledge of doping at all, but I think the PEDs create two playing fields. Both may be level, but ceratinly not equal.

Sorry to other posters for getting the thread bumped. I am trying to stay out of the clinic, but always seem to end back here.

Typo was originally a mistake, but I figured it is appropriate.

No need to stay out of the clinic - some of the best discussions have been in there recently AND it's good to get some dicussion about racing that isn't just about doping.