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Allowing the Vuelta it's proper place as a Grand Tour
- Thread starter racerralph
- Start date
I didn't think this years or last years fields were bad. The season will be far too cluttered if the vuelta is moved. You would have the ardenne classics, tour of romandie, castiila y leon and the giro all cluttered in with the vuelta. Their would also be a big gap of where the vuelta would of been.racerralph said:
The Worlds only take away Vuelta riders who weren't in contention.
They go to the Vuelta, ride like they want to win it until they know if they have a chance, then decide whether to take a shot at being a Grand Tour Champion or rest up to start from scratch at the World Championships.
It's about working within your placement in the field. Strolling over the line at the back of the peloton vs. sprinting over it at the front is a similar effect. I bet Valverde would've bailed if he wasn't leading.
The Vuelta could move to the Spring, but they just got finished moving it from the Spring.
It's obvious it will always be the 3rd-most important of the Grand Tours...unless it messes up and becomes the 4th.
One of its bigger mistakes this year was not attracting the top-most Americans: Zabriskie, Leipheimer, Hincapie--or even that old guy who claimed he was riding this season to get publicity for his pledge drive. I know USPRO, rides in the park, and wine tastings got more press in my house than the Tour of Spain did.
They go to the Vuelta, ride like they want to win it until they know if they have a chance, then decide whether to take a shot at being a Grand Tour Champion or rest up to start from scratch at the World Championships.
It's about working within your placement in the field. Strolling over the line at the back of the peloton vs. sprinting over it at the front is a similar effect. I bet Valverde would've bailed if he wasn't leading.
The Vuelta could move to the Spring, but they just got finished moving it from the Spring.
It's obvious it will always be the 3rd-most important of the Grand Tours...unless it messes up and becomes the 4th.
One of its bigger mistakes this year was not attracting the top-most Americans: Zabriskie, Leipheimer, Hincapie--or even that old guy who claimed he was riding this season to get publicity for his pledge drive. I know USPRO, rides in the park, and wine tastings got more press in my house than the Tour of Spain did.
errr I don't think it matters what so ever that the "top-most Americans" were there or not. 
What good what they have done? Obviously LA would have added attention, but personally I was happy to have an LA free GT.
I like the idea of moving it back to it's old time slot. A lot of the riders who ride the giro, do not ride the vuelta, so it's no biggie. Means riders can ride the vuelta and be fresh for the tour still. It worked before, would still work now.
would hurt the TOC even more though
What good what they have done? Obviously LA would have added attention, but personally I was happy to have an LA free GT.
I like the idea of moving it back to it's old time slot. A lot of the riders who ride the giro, do not ride the vuelta, so it's no biggie. Means riders can ride the vuelta and be fresh for the tour still. It worked before, would still work now.
would hurt the TOC even more though
It doesn't matter when the Vuelta is.
If it is in the fall, then the World's will be more important.
If it is in the Spring, then the classics and Giro will be more important.
The Vuelta, sad to say, is the junior-varsity grand tour.
Valverde's win is a great thing for him and his country. But, the aura around the Vuelta is that it is a good place for young riders to cut their teeth in a three week race or for world championship contenders to work on some race fitness prior to the big show for the rainbows.
It can be argued that there just isn't comfortable room for three grand tours which would draw top-level fields in the schedule. There are too many other events that have either local or world appeal.
I think the Vuelta is fine just where it is. The fact that racers use it to prep for the worlds prior to abandoning has become a part of the tradition of the race. That's OK. Young racers who don't ride the Tour or Giro can ride the Vuelta as their first grand tour after using the summer months for preperation. That's OK, too.
It is not possible to have all three grand tours have equal (or even similar) recognition.
If it is in the fall, then the World's will be more important.
If it is in the Spring, then the classics and Giro will be more important.
The Vuelta, sad to say, is the junior-varsity grand tour.
Valverde's win is a great thing for him and his country. But, the aura around the Vuelta is that it is a good place for young riders to cut their teeth in a three week race or for world championship contenders to work on some race fitness prior to the big show for the rainbows.
It can be argued that there just isn't comfortable room for three grand tours which would draw top-level fields in the schedule. There are too many other events that have either local or world appeal.
I think the Vuelta is fine just where it is. The fact that racers use it to prep for the worlds prior to abandoning has become a part of the tradition of the race. That's OK. Young racers who don't ride the Tour or Giro can ride the Vuelta as their first grand tour after using the summer months for preperation. That's OK, too.
It is not possible to have all three grand tours have equal (or even similar) recognition.
Timmy-loves-Rabo said:errr I don't think it matters what so ever that the "top-most Americans" were there or not.
What good what they have done? Obviously LA would have added attention, but personally I was happy to have an LA free GT.
I like the idea of moving it back to it's old time slot. A lot of the riders who ride the giro, do not ride the vuelta, so it's no biggie. Means riders can ride the vuelta and be fresh for the tour still. It worked before, would still work now.
would hurt the TOC even more though
how are you going to fit it in?
you'll have:
Paris Nice - 8th to 15th march
Tirreno Adriatico -11th to 17th March
Milano San Remo - 21st of march
vuelta a castilla y leon - 23rd to 27th march
Coppi e bartali - 24th to 28th of march
Criterium International - 28th & 29th of march
Tour of Flanders - 5th april
Vuelta a pais Vasco - 6th to 11th April
Gent Wevelgem - 8th April
Paris Roubaix -12th of april
Amstel Gold - 19th of april
Fleche wallonne - 22nd April
Liege-bastogne-Liege - 26th April
Tour de Romandie - 28th April to 3rd of may
Giro d italia - 9th to 31st of may
Volta a Catalunya - 18th to 24th of may
Tour of belgium - 27th to 31st of may
Dauphine Libere - 7th to 14th of june
Tour of luxembourg -3rd of june to 7th of June
Tour de Suisse - 13th to 21st of June
(Tour of Calafornia is some where during May)
Please tell me how you are going to fit in another Grand tour amongst all that racing. how are you are going to have the vuelta and have a quality field racing it. You will also have a big gap in september. leave it where it is.
One would probably increase the status of the Vuelta by moving the worlds forward, placing it between the Tour and the Vuelta. That way one would probably increase the status of the worlds as well, as it would happen before many of the big guns end their season.
David Suro said:
basso, gesink, evans, sanchez, valverde, mosqeura amongst others takng the race serious, and you think it is just a race for youth and world prep? The world prep.. riders liek gilbert and cunego only bring more flair to the race, they till have quality riders going for the win. The vuelta is a great race, it is just some people don't give it the repect it deserves.
Basso took 4th at the giro and vuelta, some would argue his 2nd GT after his return should be his strongest... Me using him as a benchmark, would suggest, the vuelta is no push over.
Back in the day when the Vuelta was in spring, it didnt clash with the classics. It started right at the end of April whilst the Giro was later. There used to be only a handful of weeks before Giro finish & Tour. There wasnt much time between the last Classic which was Amstel then and the start of the Vuelta either.
Hers is an example from the 1990 calendar.
Last Classic:
Amstel Gold, April 21st
Vuelta A Espana, 24th April-15th May
Giro d'Italia, 18th May-June 6
Dauphine Libere, 28th May-4th June
Tour of Switzerland, 13th-22nd June.
The noticeable difference was the Vuelta didnt start on a weekend and there were only 3 days between the finish of the Vuelta and start of the Giro leaving very little recovery time for riders doing both. The difference then was there were very few teams who done both races(4 in 1990) whilst nowadays due to the ProTour, most teams are required to do both.
For those who are wondering about the Tour of California in such a calendar, the old Tour de Trump/Pont was May 3-13 meaning it was clashing with Vuelta/4 Days of Dunkirk and Romandy. It was actually a pro-am event and had fields similar in quality to this years Tour of Missouri, a handful of top teams, all the US teams and a few amateur teams. Perhaps not what the Tour of Cali is aiming for.
The Tour of Catalonia was always held in September and was the biggest post Tour stage race. I remember Indurain, Rominger & Zulle battling it out one season.
I think a lot of people including myself would like to see the Worlds moved forward again but if they were moved before the Vuelta, imagine how many people wouldnt even go to the Vuelta, they would be struggling to get a decent field. As it stands, the Vuelta is a semi warm-up race for the worlds, if the worlds moved to August, the Vuelta would become a post-worlds all Spanish race of the quality of Burgos or Murcia.
The return of the Vuelta to spring would make it difficult for the ProTour teams to compete in all 3 major Tours as they would be so close together. This could give more opportunites for local pro-continental teams but this defeats the purpose of the ProTour to have the best teams racing together. On the other side of the coin, when we look at some of the teams sent to the Giro or Vuelta by the likes of Boguyes Telecom, AG2R etc, they are hardly worth their place as partially recognised by the Giro this year.
In summary, it could be possible to return to the old calendar but this would surely be the end of the ProTour idea for good and would involve some serious re-jigging of the calendar again. Whether the Vuelta would be better of in spring I dont know, I think it could attract more big names who could ride a GT well before the Tour so I feel the field would definitely improve. I think it could be a question of what is best for the Vuelta as opposed to what is best for pro-cycling.
Hers is an example from the 1990 calendar.
Last Classic:
Amstel Gold, April 21st
Vuelta A Espana, 24th April-15th May
Giro d'Italia, 18th May-June 6
Dauphine Libere, 28th May-4th June
Tour of Switzerland, 13th-22nd June.
The noticeable difference was the Vuelta didnt start on a weekend and there were only 3 days between the finish of the Vuelta and start of the Giro leaving very little recovery time for riders doing both. The difference then was there were very few teams who done both races(4 in 1990) whilst nowadays due to the ProTour, most teams are required to do both.
For those who are wondering about the Tour of California in such a calendar, the old Tour de Trump/Pont was May 3-13 meaning it was clashing with Vuelta/4 Days of Dunkirk and Romandy. It was actually a pro-am event and had fields similar in quality to this years Tour of Missouri, a handful of top teams, all the US teams and a few amateur teams. Perhaps not what the Tour of Cali is aiming for.
The Tour of Catalonia was always held in September and was the biggest post Tour stage race. I remember Indurain, Rominger & Zulle battling it out one season.
I think a lot of people including myself would like to see the Worlds moved forward again but if they were moved before the Vuelta, imagine how many people wouldnt even go to the Vuelta, they would be struggling to get a decent field. As it stands, the Vuelta is a semi warm-up race for the worlds, if the worlds moved to August, the Vuelta would become a post-worlds all Spanish race of the quality of Burgos or Murcia.
The return of the Vuelta to spring would make it difficult for the ProTour teams to compete in all 3 major Tours as they would be so close together. This could give more opportunites for local pro-continental teams but this defeats the purpose of the ProTour to have the best teams racing together. On the other side of the coin, when we look at some of the teams sent to the Giro or Vuelta by the likes of Boguyes Telecom, AG2R etc, they are hardly worth their place as partially recognised by the Giro this year.
In summary, it could be possible to return to the old calendar but this would surely be the end of the ProTour idea for good and would involve some serious re-jigging of the calendar again. Whether the Vuelta would be better of in spring I dont know, I think it could attract more big names who could ride a GT well before the Tour so I feel the field would definitely improve. I think it could be a question of what is best for the Vuelta as opposed to what is best for pro-cycling.
auscyclefan94 said:
What about organizing the Vuelta at the beginning of august? You won't have a TDF contender at the start, but that's no different from the current situation. Keep the Worlds where it's situated right now and use the one week stage races like the Eneco tour, Tour of Poland, Deutschland Tour (RIP) together with the 250km semi classics (San Sebastian, Hamburg, Zurich (RIP)) as a "preparation" for the Vuelta. You'll have less withdrawals from these small stage race because they only take 1 week. And the 250km semi classics are ideal to get the distance in the legs. In this case the Vuelta would become a "standalone" race.
Personally, I think that the Vuelta would be better placed in the Spring for a number of reasons, not least the country looking less brown, and the heat being less intense, a factor not least for spectators. On top of this, it is in a location set to guarantee that it is seen as a consolation GT. And with the threat of a Tour of America GT on the way, a way has to be found to fit things together.
As regards the timing, there is really only space for one Grand Tour, and that is the TDF. The Giro has a couple of clashes, especially with the ToC moving to May. I think that the historical element needs to be brought to bear on the matter. Let us look at, for example obvious in my case, the 1988 Vuelta. April 25th to May 15. The Giro was held from May 23rd to June 12th, and the TDF started July 4th - a timetable that had been in place a while.
None of the races mentioned are really new so there must have been some clashes before. These days there is generally little overlap between Grand Tour contenders and the classics men, certainly not as much as back in the days of Merckx, or even Kelly. No-one ever really decides to attempt to win all three Grand Tours, even so a degree of focus and choice comes into play. Having all the best cyclists attempting to win every race is neither good for the sport or the riders - look at the effects of wall to wall TV football - better to have a reasonably well distributed peloton, and as someone in favour of teams no greater than 8 cyclists in GTs, this is good news for the other 17 or so in Protour teams.
I am intrigued to know why it changed though? Was it dropping crowds (understandable in a rather dull era for cycling)? Was it ue to the diminished sense of self with Indurain deciding to cycle the Giro and TDF rather than the Vuelta? Knowing the reasons for the change in the first place are vital to continuing this discussion beyond speculation, I feel.
As regards the timing, there is really only space for one Grand Tour, and that is the TDF. The Giro has a couple of clashes, especially with the ToC moving to May. I think that the historical element needs to be brought to bear on the matter. Let us look at, for example obvious in my case, the 1988 Vuelta. April 25th to May 15. The Giro was held from May 23rd to June 12th, and the TDF started July 4th - a timetable that had been in place a while.
None of the races mentioned are really new so there must have been some clashes before. These days there is generally little overlap between Grand Tour contenders and the classics men, certainly not as much as back in the days of Merckx, or even Kelly. No-one ever really decides to attempt to win all three Grand Tours, even so a degree of focus and choice comes into play. Having all the best cyclists attempting to win every race is neither good for the sport or the riders - look at the effects of wall to wall TV football - better to have a reasonably well distributed peloton, and as someone in favour of teams no greater than 8 cyclists in GTs, this is good news for the other 17 or so in Protour teams.
I am intrigued to know why it changed though? Was it dropping crowds (understandable in a rather dull era for cycling)? Was it ue to the diminished sense of self with Indurain deciding to cycle the Giro and TDF rather than the Vuelta? Knowing the reasons for the change in the first place are vital to continuing this discussion beyond speculation, I feel.
personally i would move the worlds.. just means one world champion gets a shorter reign..
if valverde wins the world championship then i propose moving the worlds to january,..
if valverde wins the world championship then i propose moving the worlds to january,..
Not only move the Worlds, but hold them only every four years (alternate with Olympics). As with ski racing, the worlds and the olympics are not the pininacle of road cycling, and by holiding them every year, it further dilutes their prestige.
don't know about WHEN to have them, but I think maybe every two years is something worth pursuing, in odd years just like track and field. So it's only every fourth year you don't have a global championships. Every four years seems too long - two seems like the sweet spot.
Why not just push Worlds back another week so there are 2 weeks in between the Vuelta and Worlds? You would still get a lot of riders there to prepare for worlds but at least they might be more inclined to actually finish the race. That way there is no dramatic shifting of race schedules. Is there anything important after Worlds currently that I'm missing?
I think the Vuelta is perfectly placed where it currently is. From a fans' POV I don't think you can beat the current setup of Giro in May/June, Tour in July and Vuelta in September since we have enough space between them so as not to get overwhelmed if we watch all three.
I know cycling isn't only the Grand Tours but that's all most of us get on TV so that's what the schedule should be set up around so I agree that if anything was to be moved it should be the Worlds.
Someone said that one of the reasons he would like to see the Vuelta go back to April is so the scenery isn't so brown. Uh... Really? I don't really think this is an issue for most viewers. We're watching the cyclists, not so much the scenery. What's most important is that the racing is good. Even so, let's brainstorm a little...
Wouldn't it be easier to simply have the Vuelta have a more or less fixed route around Northern Spain? TdF always touches the Alps and Pyrinees so why can't the Vuelta always go around Picos de Europa? In fact, scenerywise Lagos de Covadonga is my favorite stage of all.
I know cycling isn't only the Grand Tours but that's all most of us get on TV so that's what the schedule should be set up around so I agree that if anything was to be moved it should be the Worlds.
Someone said that one of the reasons he would like to see the Vuelta go back to April is so the scenery isn't so brown. Uh... Really? I don't really think this is an issue for most viewers. We're watching the cyclists, not so much the scenery. What's most important is that the racing is good. Even so, let's brainstorm a little...
Wouldn't it be easier to simply have the Vuelta have a more or less fixed route around Northern Spain? TdF always touches the Alps and Pyrinees so why can't the Vuelta always go around Picos de Europa? In fact, scenerywise Lagos de Covadonga is my favorite stage of all.
i actually wonder if you could rotate the worlds around the spring classics, one year PR is also the world championships, another year tour of flanders, although that does rather bias the one day classic riders, but then so does the worlds..
nah.. scrap that idea... but im sure there are options in the spring for the worlds to be moved to rather than post vuelta..
nah.. scrap that idea... but im sure there are options in the spring for the worlds to be moved to rather than post vuelta..
DonTickles said:
I agree with you. There's only Paris-Tours and the Giro di Lombardia, And then, that's all folks!
I also agree with some of the other suggestions about having it on alternating years, but I get a feeling that, that wouldn't go over to well with the power moguls in the UCI.
And moving it to mid August sounds great too. The World Championships is definitely the easier event to manipulate, for the better of the sport, and all parties involved.
I remember the Vuelta being run in April-May. It was no different from what it is now. There were almost no Italian riders. I saw Saronni or Moser using the Vuelta as a warm-up for the Giro. So no difference with the Vuelta in September as a warm-up for the Worlds. I can only remember Battaglin winning in a row Vuelta and Giro in 1981, and Giovanetti winning the Vuelta and getting 3rd at the Giro in 1990 as the only exception. Same happened with TdF contenders. I can only remember Zoetemelk's ride in 1979 and Hinault's ride in 1983 (one of the best GT I've ever seen) not using the Vuelta as a warm-up. For the rest, participants were mostly Spaniards and some good riders from other countries in Spanish teams (Zulle, Rominger, Jalabert) So I don't think going back to Spring will improve the list of participants or their interest in the race.
Regarding the impact of the season in the beauty of the landscape, what we've seen this year (mostly Southeastern Spain) is brown ugly all year round. And riding in Spring increases the chances of high mountain passes being closed due to snow (remember 1991 queen stage to Pla de Beret) and bad wheather (heavy rain and fog) preventing the hellicopter from flying and the stage from being broadcasted on TV. Can't remember how many climbs to Lagos de Covadonga could not be seen on TV.
Regarding the impact of the season in the beauty of the landscape, what we've seen this year (mostly Southeastern Spain) is brown ugly all year round. And riding in Spring increases the chances of high mountain passes being closed due to snow (remember 1991 queen stage to Pla de Beret) and bad wheather (heavy rain and fog) preventing the hellicopter from flying and the stage from being broadcasted on TV. Can't remember how many climbs to Lagos de Covadonga could not be seen on TV.
Henrik said:
Ummm..... I don't think the Worlds need it status raised. To me it's the most prestigious one day race of them all, and the 2nd most important race in the year's calender after the TdF.
Moondance said:
I'm not sure all the riders agree with you, too many of the big guns end their season before the worlds.
icefire said:I agree with this, but only if the World is not flat
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Why does it matter whether the race one year is more suited to Cunego, and more suited to Cavendish the next? It's the motherf@cking Worlds!
Moondance said:
i disagree.. i have several of the classics ahead of the worlds..
the world TT yes, because there isnt a comparible one off TT, but the road race, nah, i still rate flanders, PR, and possibly MSR over the worlds.. but thats just me.. i like my history.. i certainly have PR over the worlds..
Ask the riders what race they would love to win. I'm sure TdF, PR, LBL, and RvF would top the WC.dimspace said:
[my edit]After winning MSR, is Mark Cavendish racing in the Worlds?
[second edit]If one wants to make the Worlds important, make them rare - like every four years.
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