Amateurs racers vs professional cheats

[crazykarl]

This is a question that goes out to any amateur level racers who compete against professional riders.

This past weekend at the Steamboat Springs stage race in northern Colorado, I saw a rider with a Garmin kit drafting behind a motor vehicle during the circuit race stage.

Being first among people who ride clean or first among those who do not take motorized assistance does not have quite the same appeal as being first over the line at the finish. As a Cat-3 racer who is near a Cat-2 upgrade, seeing a Garmin rider cheating in competition makes me much less excited about moving up to race against the pros.

As an amateur rider who races for the thrill of competition, how does one get motivated to go out and compete against professionals who are willing to cheat?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I am going to request a few more details from you - if that is ok?

Was this rider behind the race?
Had they suffered a mechanical or crash?

Also were they drafting continuously behind one particular car?
Or were they simply drafting from any and every car?

The reason I ask is there are different levels of what is 'acceptable' - if a rider suffers from a mechanical and gets a draft from their teamcar that can result in a punishment - however if the rider uses many different cars in the cavalcade to get back up to bunch it is usually ignored by the Commissaires.

 

[crazykarl]

The Pro/1/2 field had been broken up by the climbs. There was one person riding solo off the front of the race. The rider drafting a vehicle was in between the 1st and 2nd chase groups.

I did not see any mechanical or crash, and it was not obvious looking at the rider as they passed by if there had been any incident.

The draft vehicle was the one and only vehicle following the first chase group. The section of road where I saw the drafting was well over two car widths wide. It was clearly not inadvertent drafting resulting from insufficient room for a rider to pass the race caravan. It was one rider, a few seconds behind the chase group, tucked in behind one car on a two lane road where racers were allowed to use the whole road.

 

[131313]

The Pro/1/2 field had been broken up by the climbs. There was one person riding solo off the front of the race. The rider drafting a vehicle was in between the 1st and 2nd chase groups.

I did not see any mechanical or crash, and it was not obvious looking at the rider as they passed by if there had been any incident.

The draft vehicle was the one and only vehicle following the first chase group. The section of road where I saw the drafting was well over two car widths wide. It was clearly not inadvertent drafting resulting from insufficient room for a rider to pass the race caravan. It was one rider, a few seconds behind the chase group, tucked in behind one car on a two lane road where racers were allowed to use the whole road.

IMO, it's the car's responsibility to get out of they way in that situation. He should speed up to the back of the group, or if the rider is close, he needs to pull over and force the rider to close the gap.

I really don't know of a single rider who wouldn't try to draft in that situation, well, besides yourself, and probably me. I don't really see what 'amateur or professional' has to do with it.

Personally, I stay as far away from cars as possible since I've been hit twice by cars in the caravan, but I'm pretty unusual in that regard.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I agree that it is the car's responsibility to get out of the way, pull over, or wave the rider past.

If you were on this guy's wheel would you have sat up after realizing the both of you were effectively drafting the car?

 

[egtalbot]

Worry about the things you can control, not the things you can't. If noticing questionable moves from some pros is gonna make the difference between you wanting to stick with the sport and not, then you probably shouldn't stick with the sport. i don't say that to be a jerk, just that seriously this is not the type of thing that you should be worrying about at all. If you're asking if it's common, well that's one thing, but the tone of your email suggested you were losing motivation because of one example of cheating.

As a side note, I did my first triathlon last week. A very small race, and yet at least 5 of the top 20 that I saw drafted on the bike. One guy lost 4:00 due to penalties for it (he practically pitched a tent on some guy's wheel), others got away with it. It's kind of ridiculous. Now, I will say that it was tough not to draft - people were constantly speeding up to pass and then slowing down. But some guys weren't even trying to avoid it.

Every sport has people at all levels that stray over the line (ok, MAYBE professional golfers don't have many). And many people disagree about where the "line" is. As I said, focus on the things you can control.

 

[fatandfast]

Dear Cat3(nearing Cat 2) Colorado has a rep for having really hard races and competition. Once somebody is off the back he or she may grab a car or truck for a pull. One thing is for sure, If the Garmin guy was going slow enough for you to observe all you did, he was dropped and had no barring on the outcome of the race. Lots of well organized events have a closed or semi closed race route allowing you to go ever slower but still plod to the finish. Most rolling enclosures have an Official at the back, once you are so **** out they DQ you and if the pace is fast you end up riding alone back to your van or car without much fanfare. Any guy who can win a Cat3 or better race with hills in Colorado is hard,meaning he really knows how to suffer. In the amazing case of somebody motorpacing themselves into contention or god forbid a win if they are found out they get a suspension and possible fine and that is very,very rare. A word of advice about upgrading in a big district, if having fun is your goal don't become a 2, there are no "fun" Cat2 races in Colorado.

 

[BikeCentric]

A word of advice about upgrading in a big district, if having fun is your goal don't become a 2, there are no "fun" Cat2 races in Colorado.

I couldn't agree more with this. Unless you have high aspirations of going pro and/or are extremely genetically talented AND have tons of time to train outside of your day job, don't upgrade to 2. It's not a lot of fun as you are racing against guys for whom it is a job but for you it is a hobby, you have to train a bare miniumum of 15 hours/week just to not get completely destroyed, it is unlikey you will ever be anything but pack fodder unless you quit your day job to train more and again, unless you're supremely talented there is no way you can make a living being a pro or even make more than you'd make in most "civilian" jobs.

All that being said, if you place top-5 regularly in the 3's then go for it.

P.S. all that I just said is from the perspective of a career pack-fodder Cat 3 so take it for what it's worth.

 

[riobonito92]

I think a rider who has crashed or had a puncture or a mechanical should always be allowed to pace back behind their team car and, if the team car is not around, the neutral service vehicle should be allowed to do it. It happens all the time anyway.

A rider who is dropped and uses a car to pace back, as has already been said, will probably get dropped again soon anyway. A rider who spends a long time in the caravan and then pops up in the final sprint is not welcome - but I think that happens more in amateur races than professional ones.

The higher you go, the more cycling becomes a contact sport. Don't upgrade if you're not prepared to jostle hard for position - including nudging someone off the road if necessary (and be prepared take the consequences afterwards).

I would never, and have never, deliberately made someone crash, though.

 

[logical cranium]

This is a question that goes out to any amateur level racers who compete against professional riders.

This past weekend at the Steamboat Springs stage race in northern Colorado, I saw a rider with a Garmin kit drafting behind a motor vehicle during the circuit race stage.

Being first among people who ride clean or first among those who do not take motorized assistance does not have quite the same appeal as being first over the line at the finish. As a Cat-3 racer who is near a Cat-2 upgrade, seeing a Garmin rider cheating in competition makes me much less excited about moving up to race against the pros.

As an amateur rider who races for the thrill of competition, how does one get motivated to go out and compete against professionals who are willing to cheat?

Hay, give me a brake lol.

Whaaaah! if your not cheating your not tryijng. take your moralism and go work for the peice corp.

 

[riobonito92]

Hay, give me a brake lol.

Whaaaah! if your not cheating your not tryijng. take your moralism and go work for the peice corp.

That's too strong. Holding on to a car for more than about thirty seconds is cheating and is a bad thing to do. What I really hate is when team drivers deliberately use their vehicles to interfere with the riders - another amateur trick.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

IMO, it's the car's responsibility to get out of they way in that situation. He should speed up to the back of the group, or if the rider is close, he needs to pull over and force the rider to close the gap.

I really don't know of a single rider who wouldn't try to draft in that situation, well, besides yourself, and probably me. I don't really see what 'amateur or professional' has to do with it.

Personally, I stay as far away from cars as possible since I've been hit twice by cars in the caravan, but I'm pretty unusual in that regard.

Great points here - the driver of the vehicle has as much responsibility as the rider.

The reason i asked the OP for more info - was because I am sure I have come across a similar situation before as I have driven team cars, Commissaires and lead cars at various points and races.
I have seen this happen in both Pro and Amateur races.

There was one race where the scenario described sounds familiar - I was driving the Chief Comm behind a break of 6 or 7 with about 30k left- the race was going to be between them as the peloton had stopped chasing.

There was one poor guy who was dying and as soon as the road went up got gapped - he would lose 50m -100m and the Comm would tell me to overtake. So, I would accelerate quickly so as not to offer an opportunity to get on. He would eventually get back on to the group.

After this happened a couple of times the Comm quietly said "Its ok, let him use the car - he will be gone shortly"... Sure enough a few kms later he was gone again but this time for good.

Now the Comm I was driving with is very experienced and well respected - earlier in the same race we encountered a guy way behind the bunch being paced at 80kmh (50mph) by his teamcar- the same Comm let rip firstly to the rider and then the manager got an awful earful. The Comm radioed the other 3 Comms covering the race. There was no penalty given to the rider or the team manager - probably as it was a one day race- however I do know the manager was 'spoken to' again after the race and apologized.

It should also be pointed out that the fines or punishment for drafting are paltry.

 

[logical cranium]

Who is this doctor maserati? Theres not room enouph in her for me, you , and RH itallian.

What are you're credentials? I predict future gt placing due to DVR and youtove VAM claculation, adn experiment with bourbon mist in tents on top of buldings, drunk rats, and cowblood in pudding.

Top that. now.

 

[beroepsrenner]

If you are so idealistic that you will not take advantage of any "opportunity" that comes your way then forget about moving up to a higher catagory. First of all its the car drivers responsibility to ensure that he is out of the riders way. At pro level in Europe it is normal for domestiques to draft through the convoy in the course of doing their job. It is also normal for DSs to play the game as well, whether its their own team rider or not. I once had a situation where I had gotten my leader back to the tail of the convoy whereupon he left me to move foward to the peloton leaving me to grovel alone in the cars and without any prompting on my part the DS for Gewiss Bianchi signalled to me to drop in behind and he then moved foward to the front of the convoy after which it was relatively easy for me to sling off his car across to the peloton. If you think this is cheating then you will always be an amateur.
If you are not in contention for the GC then what difference does it make? If you are competing for 50th place as opposed to 51st then again you are an amateur so maybe you are better to stay where you are and enjoy your sport.

 

[beroepsrenner]

Who is this doctor maserati? Theres not room enouph in her for me, you , and RH itallian.

What are you're credentials? I predict future gt placing due to DVR and youtove VAM claculation, adn experiment with bourbon mist in tents on top of buldings, drunk rats, and cowblood in pudding.

Top that. now.

Seems to me you are on the wrong forum. you need to go to the one that teaches literacy. This ones for people who discuss cycling

 

[logical cranium]

Seems to me you are on the wrong forum. you need to go to the one that teaches literacy. This ones for people who discuss cycling

Hay! why do you atack me when I cum here to give free advice from yers of study? I am signtist to utmost quality and this is thanx I get.

also, you cant spell you're username. did you just use random letter generador for that? I am a passive person and dont wish too atack you but give me brake!

I came to america 5 years ago with grate knowledge but no english. I trade my VAM TV knowledge for a chance to learn better english in cycling forums around the internets.

 

[fatandfast]

I found it funny that Cadel took a Madison sling while getting a water bottle from his team car going uphill after he got toasted on the climb. When the official blew his whistle they TV announcer said that it would probably cost him 50 Swiss francs and Cadel would gladly pay that fine again and again up the grade. Cheating had a price and nobody got all worked up.

 

[badboyberty]

I found it funny that Cadel took a Madison sling while getting a water bottle from his team car going uphill after he got toasted on the climb. When the official blew his whistle they TV announcer said that it would probably cost him 50 Swiss francs and Cadel would gladly pay that fine again and again up the grade. Cheating had a price and nobody got all worked up.

He copped a ten second penalty for it too. He's blaming the Shimano neutral service for his problems, I say it teaches him right for using those funny Italian components.

 

[flicker]

Excuse me

If you think drafting off car is cheating after mechanical, being dropped, crash, ,etc. please; take up another sport. That is racing my friend you need not be caught at it that is the rule.
That goes not for cycling only but in auto racing.
It is the nature of the beast, sorry.
For instance Cavendish and Cipppolini crashed within the last 3K Tour of California San Luis Obisbo. Cavendish won Cioppolini was 3rd being interviewed stated NO PROBLEMO. Cavendish was DQd for being towed back to front of peleton which was travelling 30+ MPH. Reports are that Cavendish tow was traveling 50MPH+. Next day Cavs back in the race no problem. Taint tiddliewinks laddie.

 

[riobonito92]

Evans should not have been given a ten second (or any penalty) for that. A ridiculous decision.

The rules should allow you to draft back to the group you were in after a mechanical or puncture or crash so long as (a) you do not pass another group of riders and (b) you draft for five minutes or less.

Then Evans could have been towed back to the Cunego group (the one which passed him as he waited for the wheel change). Having the bad luck to puncture at a point when your team car is unable to reach you quickly should not decide who wins any race, let alone a GT.

 

[fatandfast]

Watch the video, he doesn't draft he takes a hand sling from his team care while getting a bottle. He never would have got pinched but he continued to pedal and I guess the sudden increase or 10k per hour and his crank rpm going up by 20 revs while going uphill was even too much for that official to ignore, confirmed cheating not drafting.

 

[Ripper]

Watch the video, he doesn't draft he takes a hand sling from his team care while getting a bottle. He never would have got pinched but he continued to pedal and I guess the sudden increase or 10k per hour and his crank rpm going up by 20 revs while going uphill was even too much for that official to ignore, confirmed cheating not drafting.

Oh FFS it might be worth a penalty (I may not agree with it, but it obviously can be a penalty), but let's not throw the "cheating" BS around in this situation. I would think in the bigger realm, a short sling is nothing compared to being cheated by some pretty lame "neutral service" and even lamer TV crews getting in the way of the race. I am not really a huge fan of Evans ... he's a little too high strung and touchy! But this is no way to lose a race and it looks crazy bad to penalize hime when he just got hugely penalized for no good reason. Has anyone fined the neutral service folks or the race organizer? GFG!!

 

[pataphysician]

I am a big cycling fan, and at a local race the famous Italian team came and i rode with them, even trying out my Italian on them. it was great until they didn't accept me, and one of them stuck a pump in my wheel. I was super disillusioned because my heroes were a disappointment, and they were mean. Now i just sell used cars with my dad. my friends want me to do a local cycling relay so that i feel better, should I do it?

you should do it, perhaps you will find your place in the world and your father will be proud of you.