Another silly pedaling musing from me

[FrankDay]

This is another thing that has bothered me about how we all interface with the bicycle. That is CLEAT POSITION. What is the benefit to having it under the ball of the foot? I simply have trouble explaining why this position is optimal. I can see why it evolved but now that we all use clipless pedals, the cleats could go anywhere, including under the heal.

The stimulus for this post came from my friend who is currently experimenting with very short cranks and has for now decided that 115 is his favorite length. He wrote: "I may revisit arch cleats with the 115s and see how it goes. I have 2 sets of arch cleat shoes that i could try out." Now, I didn't even know they made "arch cleat" shoes. Clearly someone has thought about this before.

Anyhow, the further from the ankle the cleat is the more drawbacks I see from a power/efficiency point of view. This is a special problem for the triathlete as I see it.

Anyhow, thought this might generate an interesting discussion.

 

[Boeing]

Good topic but you might get the proverbial (been posted do a search) or ( i am more qualified that you to say so) replies like we do these days on CN but ignore them. (if a topic bears repeating and requires a search lets assume the replies were not consistently strong)

I think any answer is that it depends on the rider preference more than hat we can gauge in a power meter etc...

I made some adjustments to my cleat position recently.

I moved them back a few mm behind the so called ball of my foot. That is the ball is forward of the spindle. but not huge, just different than I was using before

This isnt a sample survey of anyone other than me btw

I noticed some time ago back when I used to pedal my long travel bikes up a hill with platform pedals.....that by default my feet ended up more centered on the pedal or forward of my cleat positioning. Last winter I put platforms on my SS for giggles and found the same development. thinking about it and having buddies watch me climb in both positions one said they thought I tended to pronate more when over the ball. I believe now that that pronation of ankle and calf flexing might be wasted movement is some respects.

I threw on a set of clip-less and the shoes and went about riding in traditional position (ball over spindle) and then moved cleats back. I was climbing with better power in and out of the saddle with the cleats adjusted back

I am a tall rider as some of you know. I have a big foot. So the long legs and foot add up to what I assume is more movement and flexion/extension in the lower leg (calf and ankle) In addition I have always used a cant under foot between cleat and shoe and I lack the capacity to add that into the equation. It works out better about 5mm back of the ball for me on a mountain bike

I have played with the same principal on my roadie and track. but my positioning on the bike is far more critical and one mm fore or aft throws off the lot. for example I had overlap issues I could not deal with moving foot fwd/cleat back on one bike. (enter your get shorter cranks comment here Frank )

I found it quite difficult to fine tune all adjustments. Moving saddle back and saddle height became a question. A real pain.

but in the end what I have tried to achieve is more power (by feel not meter) I like the positioning back of the standard but just how much is difficult to gauge



before I go any further I ask some of you experts: I am finding I do not need the ankle and calf work as much as I thought in my pedal stroke. The only way to describe it is as calf extension. How significant is the lower leg in the pedal stroke and I will assume pedaling in the saddle for now????

 

[lostintime]

I switched to a mid foot position this summer and love it. The most noticeable aspects of doing so are more efficient use of what power I do have ...LoL ..... and a whole lot less leg fatigue when I get off the bike. I could see where triathletes would benefit from this because my legs feel more relaxed getting off the bike .... so I would say transitioning to running would be easier than before. But ... I won't be trying it anytime soon because I don't run. It's entirely subjective of course ..... but worth trying. You don't even need cycling shoes to try it out .... try it out on a bike with flat pedals and use some flat bottomed shoes or even sandals. My favorite are bmx pedals and Birkenstocks!

 

[blutto]

...Steve Hogg has long been a proponent of this placement....his writings, on CN and his blog do a nice job of explaining how this placement can be a benefit...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Martin318is]

yep, although I think there may be a limit to its utility. Mid foot is something that 'feels' like a good position for many people but while there may be a physiological argument to go for a heel position to cut the calf out completely, I can't help feeling that would be a strange pedalling actino when trying to corner in crits or sprint etc. It removes an axis of movement for body positioning and I would feel like my feet are randomly flapping out in front of me. (but thats just me)


It is certainly interesting that whenever you see a 'non' rider on the road, they have their foot placed squarely on the pedal such that the axle is mid foot....

 

[CoachFergie]

Van Sickle etal (2007) measured cycling economy and found no difference between a anterior and posterior positioned cleat. Paton (2009) tested performance and found no difference between the two positions.

Anecdotally Susanne Ljungskog won the World Road Championships in 2002 and 2003 both times in the sprint (I think one field sprint and one from a small group) using an arch mounted cleat.

 

[oldborn]

I guess it could not get any way back further, there is some place but not for that Look cleats. I made this adjustment when playing with traditional beleive of "knee cap-pedal axle" rule, which I found not as confort as this. I am kind of toe droper not heel droper which is funny coz cleat position. I guess it have some things with seat height, and my riding style mostly aero.



P.S. This study was conducted while my cat was eating, and dog watching her, so maybe there is some errors.

 

[FrankDay]

It is certainly interesting that whenever you see a 'non' rider on the road, they have their foot placed squarely on the pedal such that the axle is mid foot....

or, even, under the heel - saw that yesterday. There certainly seems to be nothing "natural" about a more forward cleat position.

 

[marathon marke]

Some RAAM (Race Across America) riders use a mid-foor cleat position, as it minimizes stress on the calf/achilles tendon area. I have my own cleats set back as far as they will go, and will be experimenting with a mid-foot position this winter.

Here's a question to ask yourself: When you cramp, what muscles cramps first or more often? For me, and many other cyclists I have talked to, it is the calf muscle. If the calf muscle gets over-worked while the rest of the more powerful leg muscles remain fresh, doesn't a mid-foot cleat position make sense? Granted, I can believe it might not be the best for certain types of cycling/racing (track?, sprints?, etc.), but for endurance events, this might be a more logical choice.

 

[FrankDay]

Some RAAM (Race Across America) riders use a mid-foor cleat position, as it minimizes stress on the calf/achilles tendon area. I have my own cleats set back as far as they will go, and will be experimenting with a mid-foot position this winter.

Here's a question to ask yourself: When you cramp, what muscles cramps first or more often? For me, and many other cyclists I have talked to, it is the calf muscle. If the calf muscle gets over-worked while the rest of the more powerful leg muscles remain fresh, doesn't a mid-foot cleat position make sense? Granted, I can believe it might not be the best for certain types of cycling/racing (track?, sprints?, etc.), but for endurance events, this might be a more logical choice.

This would be especially true for the triathlete who is going to need that calf muscle to be fully functioning for the upcoming run segment of the race. The other issue for endurance riders is simply energy utilization. Usually we can't take in as many calories as we are burning. Why burn unnecessary calories in the calf muscle, doing essentially nothing beneficial to the task, making it more difficult to keep the useful muscles fueled?

 

[Martin318is]

or, even, under the heel - saw that yesterday. There certainly seems to be nothing "natural" about a more forward cleat position.

yes, I have seen that once or twice but it has generally been a bmx rider slouching on his bike riding along a street (makes sense given that they pedal standing up and when sitting down their knees hit their chins)

But when looking at someone properly suffering - like into a headwind or up a slope of more than 2% they seem to default to mid foot. Do see a few move their foot to the 'ball' position but they seem to be more experienced riders.

Would be interesting to do an observation study through a city over several days and then again on a local hill frequented by riders. Would also be interesting to track the same rider through both environments...

 

[FrankDay]

Would be interesting to do an observation study

It would be cool if someone could do a study looking at why we do what we do. My guess is that the prime determinant comes when we are young and learning and someone in authority says "this is what you do" and that is what we do, once we learn how, pretty much for the rest of our lives.

 

[Martin318is]

For me it seems to be around stiffness of sole and/or dimensions of pedal platform.

If the shoe is really stiff then midsole seems fine
if the shoe is flexible but the platform is large then midfoot seems fine.

If however I am in runners on my road bike (flexible show and small platform) then I immediately shuffle my feet to put the ball of foot over the axle.

No idea why, just naturally have always done that. If I pedal mid-foot with flexible soles on a small platform I feel like I dont have proper connection with the bike. This seems linked to my earlier comment about steering with all contact patches and needing to have my ankle more involved for weight shifting etc...

 

[twothirds]

The other thing to consider with most people that pedal with a midfoot position is that their cadence is usually slower. John Q Public usually has a cadence of around 50-70 rpm. Triathletes usually pedal around 70-80 rpm (at least the what I have seen). Top level BMXers pedal with some pretty high cadences, so may be an exception to the rule (goes back to the doing it because you learned that way aspect of the argument). I know that when I'm in regular street shoes and pedalling along, then midfoot is okay until I really start to get my cadence over 80 rpm.

I usually pedal between 100-110 and used to race track when I was younger. I couldn't imagine doing sprints with a midfoot cleat position. I think that the ball of the foot is the optimal transfer location for explosive leg extension. It's where we push from when we sprint and jump. At high cadences, having the cleat under the ball of the foot would also allow the ankle to absorb as well as give power back to the pedalling motion. It seems that the smoothing out of power delivery makes higher cadence pedalling possible.

 

[FrankDay]

I couldn't imagine doing sprints with a midfoot cleat position. I think that the ball of the foot is the optimal transfer location for explosive leg extension. It's where we push from when we sprint and jump.

But, it is not where weight/power lifters push from. I would submit this position is just what you/we are used to which is why it is hard to imagine anything else. It may be optimum for that kind of riding but I don't see any evidence to support that conclusion scientifically.

It is possible this foot position "evolved" during the penny farthing racing days because it allowed a rider (though ankling) to "extend" their leg to fit over a larger wheel, allowing greater top end speeds. I think this evolution is also responsible for the current crank length that most people ride also, a longer crank length allowing faster acceleration when the gear was fixed. Because this evolved as "best" for this kind of riding and soon felt "normal" no one asked the question as to whether these choices were still best once bicycle design allowed for something different. At least that is a possibility, I propose.

 

[marathon marke]

I think twothirds makes a very valid point here. The comment about allowing "the ankle to absorb as well as give power back" is something I had never considered and seems to make a lot of sense to me.

I couldn't imagine doing sprints with a midfoot cleat position. I think that the ball of the foot is the optimal transfer location for explosive leg extension. It's where we push from when we sprint and jump. At high cadences, having the cleat under the ball of the foot would also allow the ankle to absorb as well as give power back to the pedalling motion. It seems that the smoothing out of power delivery makes higher cadence pedalling possible.

As Franks point out, powerlifters might not use the ball of the foot, but there are different types of cycling, which probably best utilize different types of positions on the foot-pedal interface. Ultra-cyclists (or possibly most time-trialists) have very little use for sprinting, so they might be best with mid-foot. Where as a track cyclist might be best with ball-of-foot positioning.

After all, we don't position a time-trialist the same way over the bike as a trackie, so why might there not be a better way to position his foot over the pedal for different cycling disciplines?

 

[twothirds]

But, it is not where weight/power lifters push from. I would submit this position is just what you/we are used to which is why it is hard to imagine anything else. It may be optimum for that kind of riding but I don't see any evidence to support that conclusion scientifically.

This is true, but weightlifters and powerlifters are producing huge loads at a much slower rate of speed. The velocity of the force production is what I was alluding to. Squatting a heavy weight is a poor example to compare to pedalling when you are talking biomechanics. Vertical leaps with a shoulder width stance are much closer to the load, velocity, and direction of force production seen in pedalling a bicycle. Try to jump as high as you can as you naturally would. Then try to jump as high as you can without extending your ankle. See which one works better.

Stairclimbing is a good example of what I was talking about. Climb stairs at a walking pace and you plant your foot flat on each stair tread. Climb the stairs at a jog or faster and you no longer land flat footed but on your toes.

This would be especially true for the triathlete who is going to need that calf muscle to be fully functioning for the upcoming run segment of the race. The other issue for endurance riders is simply energy utilization. Usually we can't take in as many calories as we are burning. Why burn unnecessary calories in the calf muscle, doing essentially nothing beneficial to the task, making it more difficult to keep the useful muscles fueled?

You change your gait as the velocities within your legs changes. Certain gaits are more efficient for certain speeds. The triathlete/trackie thing comes to mind. What's good for one may be horrible for the other. I would think that the midfoot cleat makes sense for a tri-guy. A track sprinter won't care about being as efficient as possible because he needs to be as explosive as possible and be able to maximize their power output. Taking a muscle out of the equation that could potentially contribute to their power output would be stupid. Roadies would be a compromise somewhere in the middle. They need the efficiency for the long haul, but if someone attacks, or they're in the final sprint, they need to be able to not only maximize that power output, but be able to modulate (the take/give aspect) that power.

And Olympic lifters actually utilize their calves quite a bit in the explosive lifts. Watch them perform a clean or a snatch and you'll see them get up on their toes.

 

[FrankDay]

This is true, but weightlifters and powerlifters are producing huge loads at a much slower rate of speed. The velocity of the force production is what I was alluding to. Squatting a heavy weight is a poor example to compare to pedalling when you are talking biomechanics. Vertical leaps with a shoulder width stance are much closer to the load, velocity, and direction of force production seen in pedalling a bicycle. Try to jump as high as you can as you naturally would. Then try to jump as high as you can without extending your ankle. See which one works better.

Extending the ankle works in jumping, not because one can apply more force but because one extends the amount of time force is applied. Further, jumping high usually involves storing energy in the tendons which is recovered. Neither of these really applies to cycling. I accept that sprinters may require completely different placement for optimization compared to endurance riders. The other issue, of course, is one of fatigue. cyclists are doing 4-6000 reps per hour or so. We cannot be stronger than the weakest muscle in the chain so it seems counter productive to engage more muscles in an action which means, if the muscle we add has less capability than the ones already being used, all we are doing is reaching that endurance limit sooner.

Stairclimbing is a good example of what I was talking about. Climb stairs at a walking pace and you plant your foot flat on each stair tread. Climb the stairs at a jog or faster and you no longer land flat footed but on your toes.

Most people climb stairs on their toes. but, the reason for this, I think, has to do with a couple of things. Most stairs are not wide enough to allow adults to land on their heals and raising up on the toes means one doesn't have to lift the heavy knee as high to get the other foot up on the next stair. Since most don't climb more than 10-20 steps at any one time even untrained people don't exceed these muscles energy system capabilities. Stair climbing, again, is not a good analogy to cycling, IMO.

You change your gait as the velocities within your legs changes. Certain gaits are more efficient for certain speeds. The triathlete/trackie thing comes to mind. What's good for one may be horrible for the other. I would think that the midfoot cleat makes sense for a tri-guy. A track sprinter won't care about being as efficient as possible because he needs to be as explosive as possible and be able to maximize their power output.

I pretty much agree with this

Taking a muscle out of the equation that could potentially contribute to their power output would be stupid.

Unless adding that extra muscle didn't actually contribute to extra power but did contribute to the fatigue factor. It just seems this is something worth experimenting with.

Roadies would be a compromise somewhere in the middle. They need the efficiency for the long haul, but if someone attacks, or they're in the final sprint, they need to be able to not only maximize that power output, but be able to modulate (the take/give aspect) that power.

Your analysis makes sense and I tend to agre. It just is unproven.

And Olympic lifters actually utilize their calves quite a bit in the explosive lifts. Watch them perform a clean or a snatch and you'll see them get up on their toes.

Well, I did a little search, and they do seem to get up on their toes but very briefly and not while under high power or force.
Clean and jerk, toes don't seem to have much role here
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring09/gilliam_d/technique.html
snatch, Here extending the ankle seems to be used to try to maintain the upward momentum of the bar, to allow it to get as high as possible to give the athlete enough time to do the quick movement to get the body under it. Seems more akin to jumping than cycling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYa0LsCBwPo

anyhow, thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Martin318is]

I would have thought that stair climbinng is a much closer analogy to cycling than weightlifting/powerlifting...

The first is a one leg at a time repetetive effort where the foot is lifted into a position and then applies force across several planes before being relieved and lifted back into that position. Looking at position of hips relative to the path of the feet is reminicient of riding a bike out of the saddle also..

Weight lifting is one or more explosive efforts of both legs simulaneously to get from a crouch to standing position - once. Then the weight is dropped and the athlete walks off to recover.

 

[FrankDay]

I would have thought that stair climbinng is a much closer analogy to cycling than weightlifting/powerlifting...

I would agree if the width of the stair didn't restrict the foot placement. One thing in your favor is how most people climb the stair master, using the ball of their foot on the "stair".

The first is a one leg at a time repetetive effort where the foot is lifted into a position and then applies force across several planes before being relieved and lifted back into that position. Looking at position of hips relative to the path of the feet is reminicient of riding a bike out of the saddle also..

Weight lifting is one or more explosive efforts of both legs simulaneously to get from a crouch to standing position - once. Then the weight is dropped and the athlete walks off to recover.

Well, the issue is one of what is the best position and arrangement of being able to apply power. John Cobb is currently advocating lower seat position to maximize power, something more similar to a power lifting position. Just because we are used to something doesn't mean it is optimal. I don't know the answer but I think it worthy to consider what we have always done may not be the best way.

 

[CoachFergie]

I would say that nothing comes close to the kinematics of cycling and the forces required to sustain it. Hence the reason that cyclist with an interest in performance spend so much time repeating the same movement patterns. Very small changes to the movement pattern (crank length, cleat position, seat height, cadence) have very little effect on actual performance while specific training can lead to some very significant gains in very short periods of time. When you scratch the surface behind the preparation of any top cyclist you will find it is a long background in, conditioning, specific training and racing that underpins their performance.

 

[FrankDay]

I would say that nothing comes close to the kinematics of cycling and the forces required to sustain it. Hence the reason that cyclist with an interest in performance spend so much time repeating the same movement patterns. Very small changes to the movement pattern (crank length, cleat position, seat height, cadence) have very little effect on actual performance while specific training can lead to some very significant gains in very short periods of time. When you scratch the surface behind the preparation of any top cyclist you will find it is a long background in, conditioning, specific training and racing that underpins their performance.

Fergie, most of the people here understand that training makes you better. This thread is about little nuances that might make another difference.

 

[CoachFergie]

It's been researched and there was no difference.

 

[Martin318is]

well to be fair, whilst I am sure that dropping or raising a pro's saddle by a few mm makes little difference to them in shortish efforts (as evidenced by people performing reasaonably well when handed a teammates bike etc) there has to be a point where more major impacts are observed.

For some reason I would think it is a bit of a catastrophy curve where smal changes make little difference but once you get to a certain point subsequent changes have a big impact. Obviously this is observed if you move a saddle UPwards because there is a physical limit where you cannot go any higher and there is a limit just below that where physical pedalling it utterly inefficient. Logically there is a similar lower limit.

That said, if a study has shown that lower than expected saddle positions result in a drop in power and/or efficiency then I would believe that.

 

[CoachFergie]

There is always going to be a point where performance diminishes. Stupid long cranks, stupid short, stupid high seat, stupid low seat, stupid high cadence, stupid low cadence etc. But no where within those ranges is a magical point where performance will dramatically improve.