Anybody here a pro on headsets?

[Guttercat]

Short of it is...can't seem to figure out why my headset keeps loosening/"popping out". Thought we had the problem solved. Apparently we don't.

Took it apart again today (campagnolo record headset) and I swear...I seriously swear... the expander plug is being pulled up in the steer tube, bit by miserable bit.

IF, this is the issue, I really do not want to ship the forks to De Rosa in Italy as everything I've read says...good luck in seeing your bike again for several months and seriously good luck on them honoring any warranty.

So, that said, anyone know ANYONE in the states that is qualified to:

A.) remove an expander plug in a carbon steer tube,

and perhaps more importantly

B.) put a new one in

Can this even be done without exploding the carbon steer tube? I'm at a loss here on what to do. Suck it up and buy a new fork/headset?

 

[Hairy Wheels]

Short of it is...can't seem to figure out why my headset keeps loosening/"popping out". Thought we had the problem solved. Apparently we don't.

Took it apart again today (campagnolo record headset) and I swear...I seriously swear... the expander plug is being pulled up in the steer tube, bit by miserable bit.

IF, this is the issue, I really do not want to ship the forks to De Rosa in Italy as everything I've read says...good luck in seeing your bike again for several months and seriously good luck on them honoring any warranty.

So, that said, anyone know ANYONE in the states that is qualified to:

A.) remove an expander plug in a carbon steer tube,

and perhaps more importantly

B.) put a new one in

Can this even be done without exploding the carbon steer tube? I'm at a loss here on what to do. Suck it up and buy a new fork/headset?

DON'T take it out...the more you score the steerer tube, the worse it is for you. Solution? Push it down as far as it can go and get a decent expander plug (the self-expanding ones, you have an expander wedge...different). There are some real garbage ones out there, so be careful.

Now, you need to ask a few questions. What kind of stem are you using? I've seen 3 Thomsons slip on carbon steerer tubes. They just don't seem to grip the carbon as well (I use one on a steel steerer tubed Alpha Q). Have you tightened the stem to factory specs with a torque wrench? If you haven't it may just be slipping...remember, you can take a top-cap off after it has been used to adjust headset tension...it's the stem that is the most important component here.

Oh, make sure you have about 5mm of stem or spacer ABOVE the steerer tube...you might be bottoming things out. It's always better to have a bit of spacer above, the stem can crush the top of the steerer if tightened to much with overlap.

 

[Guttercat]

Thanks Hairy, and by god, one of these days you'll have to explain your username.

Spacer placement is fine as far as not risking the integrity of the steer tube, I'm pretty careful with that.

Although it's a Bontrager stem (gasp...on a De Rosa???) it never had any issues on the other bike with slipping).

After an inquiry from my LBS, De Rosa said they had the occasional issue with the top cap being too flexy causing an issue. This doesn't seem to be the issue here: if my eyes and measurements are not deceiving me.... I swear it's the expander plug.

But as you've suggested, perhaps I'll try another stem to be sure. It's when I'm really applying torque during a ride that the damned thing "pops". When I open it up, the plastic washer is totally unseated.

On the plus side, I've been commended for my extreme speed in dismounting the bike, then dismantling and reassembling a Campag headset. Practice makes perfect.

What happened to the 80's? All I had to do was mount up and ride. This newfangled cr@p is way too high maintenance.

And P.S. I'll have to google the difference between a self-expanding plug, and an "expander wedge". New to me.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Short of it is...can't seem to figure out why my headset keeps loosening/"popping out". Thought we had the problem solved. Apparently we don't.

Took it apart again today (campagnolo record headset) and I swear...I seriously swear... the expander plug is being pulled up in the steer tube, bit by miserable bit.

IF, this is the issue, I really do not want to ship the forks to De Rosa in Italy as everything I've read says...good luck in seeing your bike again for several months and seriously good luck on them honoring any warranty.

So, that said, anyone know ANYONE in the states that is qualified to:

A.) remove an expander plug in a carbon steer tube,

and perhaps more importantly

B.) put a new one in

Can this even be done without exploding the carbon steer tube? I'm at a loss here on what to do. Suck it up and buy a new fork/headset?

Is it a star fangled nut? The type that comes with the headset? If it is, a bad idea as it scores the inside of the steerer and can lead to a fork steerer breakage. If it's an expanding type insert, take it out and use a Ritchey one...

 

[dsut4392]

Thanks Hairy, and by god, one of these days you'll have to explain your username.

Spacer placement is fine as far as not risking the integrity of the steer tube, I'm pretty careful with that.

Although it's a Bontrager stem (gasp...on a De Rosa???) it never had any issues on the other bike with slipping).

After an inquiry from my LBS, De Rosa said they had the occasional issue with the top cap being too flexy causing an issue. This doesn't seem to be the issue here: if my eyes and measurements are not deceiving me.... I swear it's the expander plug.

But as you've suggested, perhaps I'll try another stem to be sure. It's when I'm really applying torque during a ride that the damned thing "pops". When I open it up, the plastic washer is totally unseated.

On the plus side, I've been commended for my extreme speed in dismounting the bike, then dismantling and reassembling a Campag headset. Practice makes perfect.

What happened to the 80's? All I had to do was mount up and ride. This newfangled cr@p is way too high maintenance.

And P.S. I'll have to google the difference between a self-expanding plug, and an "expander wedge". New to me.

I could be wrong, but think that what is being referred to as a "self expanding plug" is more commonly known as a star fangled nut (truly). These in my experience never slip, but they're also something you don't want to have in a carbon steerer tube!

I have the same problem on my bike. You're right that the stem expander is moving, it has to for the headset to be able to loosen. However others are also right to pinpoint the stem/steerer interface as the root of the problem, rather than the expander.
The stem should be able to grip the steerer securely enough that the top cap and expander can be removed entirely without the headset loosening.
Unfortunately it isn't always the case that this works, which probably depends both on the steerer and stem in question (deda quattro stem and blackfin full carbon fork, stronglight headset).
I haven't solved the issue entirely on my bike, but have found that using some assembly paste between the stem and steerer helps, and it's now a few hundred km since the last time I felt that annoying 'click' when first pulling up on the bars after a long descent on bad roads.
If anyone has recommendations on a good expander I would also be keen to know, as it can't but help keep things tight if the stem alone isn't up to it. Perhaps the extra long ITM one?

 

[Guttercat]

Your input is much appreciated everybody. Thank you.

It is definitely not a star fangled nut. But...nor does it look like a compression plug from what images I've been able to google.

It's just a simple "ring" wedged in the inside of the steerer that looks more like a washer than anything else. I may be mistaken in calling it a compression/expander plug.

 

[Guttercat]

And P.S. dsut4392

That's exactly what happens to me...I'll have spent a nice descent la-la-la-ing along down a hill, and go to cranking up the next when...boing...cr@p.

 

[erader]

Thanks Hairy, and by god, one of these days you'll have to explain your username.

Spacer placement is fine as far as not risking the integrity of the steer tube, I'm pretty careful with that.

Although it's a Bontrager stem (gasp...on a De Rosa???) it never had any issues on the other bike with slipping).

After an inquiry from my LBS, De Rosa said they had the occasional issue with the top cap being too flexy causing an issue. This doesn't seem to be the issue here: if my eyes and measurements are not deceiving me.... I swear it's the expander plug.

But as you've suggested, perhaps I'll try another stem to be sure. It's when I'm really applying torque during a ride that the damned thing "pops". When I open it up, the plastic washer is totally unseated.

On the plus side, I've been commended for my extreme speed in dismounting the bike, then dismantling and reassembling a Campag headset. Practice makes perfect.

What happened to the 80's? All I had to do was mount up and ride. This newfangled cr@p is way too high maintenance.

And P.S. I'll have to google the difference between a self-expanding plug, and an "expander wedge". New to me.

i prefer the new system much better. i'd be very leery of a carbon steerer tho.

erader

 

[egtalbot]

hmm

maybe I'm missing something, but as a couple other posters have mentioned, the top cap and expander/whatever should be irrelevant once you get the stem tightened. And since you're describing problems encountered while riding, I'm assuming you are able to get to the point where the stem and headset are sufficiently tight.

I do understand that occasionally it doesn't work this way, but it mostly should. When things "pop" does the headset get looser or is it just a case of the top cap and expander moving?

 

[oldborn]

Short of it is...can't seem to figure out why my headset keeps loosening/"popping out". Thought we had the problem solved. Apparently we don't.

Took it apart again today (campagnolo record headset) and I swear...I seriously swear... the expander plug is being pulled up in the steer tube, bit by miserable bit.

IF, this is the issue, I really do not want to ship the forks to De Rosa in Italy as everything I've read says...good luck in seeing your bike again for several months and seriously good luck on them honoring any warranty.

So, that said, anyone know ANYONE in the states that is qualified to:

A.) remove an expander plug in a carbon steer tube,

and perhaps more importantly

B.) put a new one in

Can this even be done without exploding the carbon steer tube? I'm at a loss here on what to do. Suck it up and buy a new fork/headset?

Post a picture (of stem, steer, and expander/star plug or something, cap, screw, spacers) and i am sure that someone have a solution, it is difficult to give advice on something we guess.

 

[boris&co]

OK, I've recently worked through these problems, and my experience is the expander plugs are always a bit loosey-goosey. This used to cause me problems at first as my technique for preloading the head bearings was to overtighten slightly and then back it off a little. I soon discovered with my first carbon steerer that this just pulls the bung out, and I now adjust for zero rattle.

Another bit of excitement caused by all this was when I discovered that the idiot who had previously owned my first carbon steerer forks had tried to get around this problem by tightening the expander so hard he expanded the steerer tube. So excited was I by this discovery that I never again felt safe on the bike, and bought a brand new frame and forks.

Bottom line, the bung does nothing at all once the stem is tightened. If it's coming out when riding it's being pulled up by the cap as the stem rides up. I have had this problem also. A tube of Finish Line Fibre Grip and a BBB Torque wrench, tighten the stem bolts in stages to 9N, and my problems melted away (this is the correct torque for my stem - yours may vary).

Good luck with your bike, and in future, if anyone tries to tighten your stem bolts without a torque wrench offer to strike them on the noggin with a track pump.

boris

 

[Guttercat]

Thanks you Boris (and all).

I really appreciate all the ideas being thrown around. Major help in troubleshooting.

And yeah Boris, a torque wrench is on the horizon for me. But much more of this cr@p and I'll be hitting my own self over the head with it.

I do NOT do well with unsolved problems!

 

[Guttercat]

When things "pop" does the headset get looser or is it just a case of the top cap and expander moving?

I cannot verify with certainty that the expander is moving. But I'm taking measurements now, so I can rule it out. It sure looks that way by eyeballing it, though.

 

[Guttercat]

Post a picture (of stem, steer, and expander/star plug or something, cap, screw, spacers) and i am sure that someone have a solution, it is difficult to give advice on something we guess.

Thank you Oldborn. I tried to post pics, but the site won't allow me to. I emailed Susan about this and she does not know why.

I opened up the whole fork/headset assembly today. When I pulled out the bottom bearing, one ball bearing came flying out of it and went bouncing across the room. As it did, I thought to myself, 'Oh, Eff. I don't think that was supposed to happen'.

Looks like the bearings are pitted (I'm not surprised since the headset has popped out so many times), so I ordered new races/bearings/cups today.

Am taking all I've gleaned from here and elsewhere and will hopefully solve this issue once and for all.

 

[Anonymous]

Take the Bontrager stem off and throw it in the garbage.

Buy a good quality stem that will sit flush to the bearings and not allow for play in the steer tube.

Your stem is probably not perfectly flat / flush on the bottom surface.

 

[dsut4392]

I opened up the whole fork/headset assembly today. When I pulled out the bottom bearing, one ball bearing came flying out of it and went bouncing across the room. As it did, I thought to myself, 'Oh, Eff. I don't think that was supposed to happen'.

Yuk, I didn't realise loose ball bearing headsets still existed. This is one application where a sealed bearing unit has real advantages and virtually nil disadvantage (maybe a 10g weight penalty?). At least when my headset goes loose the balls all stay where they are supposed to and I don't end up with pitted races, and I don't end up with greasy balls on the floor if I pull the fork out.

 

[dsut4392]

Take the Bontrager stem off and throw it in the garbage.

Buy a good quality stem that will sit flush to the bearings and not allow for play in the steer tube.

Your stem is probably not perfectly flat / flush on the bottom surface.

Simply calling any Bontrager stem "garbage" is a bit of a stretch. TBH I don't have a single piece of bonty kit, but some of it seems pretty nice, and I doubt simply changing to a different brand name will automatically buy "good quality".

I agree that if you start off with any play in the steerer then it's likely to magnify itself pretty quickly into an annoying rattle.

Being pedantic, the stem doesn't sit directly on top of the bearings, there is a small wedge ring first, then the headset top cap, some headset spacers (usually), then the stem. The way this wedge works, I wouldn't have thought a minor irregularity in the base of the stem (or spacer) should matter much.

If I wasn't already cursed with a headset that sometimes comes loose, I would be tempted to see if a minor irregularity in loading the headset top cap (e.g. by placing a couple of sheets of paper below one side of the stem) caused a problem...

 

[dsut4392]

I cannot verify with certainty that the expander is moving. But I'm taking measurements now, so I can rule it out. It sure looks that way by eyeballing it, though.

Yes, it moves.

When first I started getting problems (after moving back to rough Aussie roads from the smooth English roads where I bought the bike and rode it for 8 months) I kept tightening the stem cap bolt every time I got a rattle. I eventually found the cap was bottoming against the expander, which was all the way at the top of the steerer.

Short of the bolt unscrewing itself, there really isn't any other plausible scenario than the expander moving inside the steerer that results in a loose headset.

 

[dsut4392]

Another bit of excitement caused by all this was when I discovered that the idiot who had previously owned my first carbon steerer forks had tried to get around this problem by tightening the expander so hard he expanded the steerer tube. So excited was I by this discovery that I never again felt safe on the bike, and bought a brand new frame and forks.

Bottom line, the bung does nothing at all once the stem is tightened. If it's coming out when riding it's being pulled up by the cap as the stem rides up. I have had this problem also. A tube of Finish Line Fibre Grip and a BBB Torque wrench, tighten the stem bolts in stages to 9N, and my problems melted away (this is the correct torque for my stem - yours may vary).

Good luck with your bike, and in future, if anyone tries to tighten your stem bolts without a torque wrench offer to strike them on the noggin with a track pump.

boris

Yikes, I don't think I would have even ridden the bike once after finding that sort of damage of the steerer!

In an ideal world, every home mechanic should have a torque wrench, but if the expander and stem are properly placed in relation to each other (and the expander is as long as the clamping area of the stem), the stem should prevent the expander from 'expanding' the steerer by supporting it from the outside, and the expander should prevent the stem from crushing the steerer by supporting it from the inside.

I still wouldn't go overboard with tightening the stem bolts/expander, but I think this arrangement significantly reduces the chance of damage to the steerer.

 

[dsut4392]

i prefer the new system much better. i'd be very leery of a carbon steerer tho.

erader

I'm always intrigued when people riding a bike with a carbon fork (just about everybody riding a road bike less than 10 years old) say things like "I'd be very leery of a carbon steerer/handlebar".
Even the cycling websites get on the bandwagon around cobbled classics season telling us how some pros (or at least Big George) are riding alloy steerers.

Why are carbon forks OK, but carbon steerers and handlebars SCARY?

With a broken bar or even steerer at least you have a small chance of riding it out, but with a broken fork you are OTB for sure...

 

[Guttercat]

Yuk, I didn't realise loose ball bearing headsets still existed. This is one application where a sealed bearing unit has real advantages and virtually nil disadvantage (maybe a 10g weight penalty?). At least when my headset goes loose the balls all stay where they are supposed to and I don't end up with pitted races, and I don't end up with greasy balls on the floor if I pull the fork out.

They're not "loose" they're in a retainer ring. It was explained to me that the bearing/races all come in separate pieces so if something needs to be replaced or serviced, it can be done so easily. No disadvantage I can see...assuming your headset stays tightened. The damage to the bearings happened from everything coming unseated a few times too much.

Total bummer.

 

[Guttercat]

Yes, it moves.

When first I started getting problems (after moving back to rough Aussie roads from the smooth English roads where I bought the bike and rode it for 8 months) I kept tightening the stem cap bolt every time I got a rattle. I eventually found the cap was bottoming against the expander, which was all the way at the top of the steerer.
.

This is my worst fear. And this is what "looks" like is happening. But I'll have to measure to be sure. I understand it is not a common thing. My fear is there's a flaw in the steer tube allowing this to happen. I see no cracks in it, at least.

What a pain!

Thasnks for your help.

 

[luckylegs]

This is what I'm using. Initially had slippage problems, but like someone posted earlier, carbon friction paste and torquing to specs fixed it.

 

[Guttercat]

Thanks for the input.

And many thanks again to all who offered advice and experience.

 

[dsut4392]

This is what I'm using. Initially had slippage problems, but like someone posted earlier, carbon friction paste and torquing to specs fixed it.

Apart from the brand name mine looks identical.

Where are you applying the carbon friction paste? On the outside of the steerer I assume?

If trying it inside the steerer (to stop this bung slipping), be very careful you don't get it inside the bung on the surfaces that wedge against each other. Can make the thing stick together rock solid so it is very hard to remove (don't ask me how I know).