Are tall riders at a disadvantage for GC wins?

[Berflamand]

I generally agree that aerodynamics has become more important in the last years, however i don't necessarily think it favors the small guys, who can get pretty aero even on their normal road bike. There have been a lot of, relatively, short guys that were amazing TTers in the past, from Hinault and Saronni in the late '70 and '80, to Berzin and Rominger in the '90, and even further back in time, Anquetil was no giant. I think using the aerobars is massive advantage for the tall guy cause it helps them reduce their frontal aera, something that is much harder with a road bike for them.

Without knowing much about the subject, I think this makes sense.

For example, I think Remco's aerodynamic advantage compared to the likes of Ganna or WvA would be even bigger when every TT had to be ridden on a road bike without aerobars.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Your interpretation of my post is way off the mark.

I just wanted to point out that being physically less suited for something is a disadvantage. The dictionary definition of a disadvantage:

Being physically less suited to be successful at something perfectly fits the definition of a disadvantage, so saying that being physically less suited to something and being at a disadvantage are two different things seems logically wrong to me.

In no way did I try to suggest there's any viable way to rectify someone being at a disadvantage in that aspect.

I did not say you suggested this. I am giving you the context in which the post you were responding to was posted in my opinion. Given the fact that the poster gave my post a thumbs up, i think this is how he meant it. The entire topic and discussion is about levelling the playing field with artificial interventions. My initial response to you wasn't really sarcastic, but rather an absurd example to illustrate what the poster meant.

 

[proffate]

Please make the same graph for rider's weight.
I got an unpleasant feeling that fat guys like me are less likely to win the Tour. I want to see data so I can make my case that it's unfair.

Honestly I think that is probably more informative. I bet all data points are within 60-75kg except big mig. When you have a taller GC guy like Froome winning, he's still (freakishly) lightweight. According to google, just 2 kg more than Pog, and the same as the Schlecks. But I didn't make that graph nor do I plan to dig up the data for weight.

So height is probably a bit of a red herring. You can't be tall and of a "normal" build, but you can be tall(ish) and super slight. Note that this is not about dieting; most tall people would start to lose power long before they were as skinny as Froome. You can also be average height or a little short and have a more proportional build (like Pog). Taylor Phinney could not be a GC rider, but a shorter rider with a similarly muscular build such as Brandon McNulty could be a GC rider. On the other end, too lightweight and the bike is an anchor.

So while controlling for weight, height matters less. It just so happens that height is strongly correlated with minimum functional bodyweight.

 

[proffate]

I generally agree that aerodynamics has become more important in the last years, however i don't necessarily think it favors the small guys, who can get pretty aero even on their normal road bike. There have been a lot of, relatively, short guys that were amazing TTers in the past, from Hinault and Saronni in the late '70 and '80, to Berzin and Rominger in the '90, and even further back in time, Anquetil was no giant. I think using the aerobars is massive advantage for the tall guy cause it helps them reduce their frontal aera, something that is much harder with a road bike for them.

I don't follow this logic. Why is it hard for a big guy to get aero on a road bike? It's more about proportions. Boonen had notably short legs and the nature of his results suggest he was pretty aero on a road bike.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

I don't follow this logic. Why is it hard for a big guy to get aero on a road bike? It's more about proportions. Boonen had notably short legs and the nature of his results suggest he was pretty aero on a road bike.

Surely proportion play a role, but someone like Ganna will always have longer torso and arms than Evenepoel, unless of a comically proportioned individual, and given that the amount of space between the saddle and the handlebar is limited, the former will always find it easier than the latter to fit in that space. Look at a picture of these two and you would see that Remco looks pretty natural in is aero position, while Ganna looks more crouched, and is arms are flailing outwards, which surely does not reduce drag. Also, taller guys have broader shoulder, so they have a bigger benefit from the possibility of using the aero bar to bring their arms in and making their frontal profile smaller

 

[Cookster15]

What exactly are you disagreeing with? Taller riders are less aero, but they are allowed to put their arms in a more angled position than smaller riders. There is nothing here to disagree with, this is how it is. Having their arms at a more angled position, improves their aerodynamics.

Don't worry. I suppose it was the bold sentence, to me this is contradictory, but I guess its just me.

Nick2413 gives the best explanation here ....

Page 2 - Are tall riders at a disadvantage for GC wins?

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

forum.cyclingnews.com

​

 

[Red Rick]

a lot of those disadvantages only really became a thing in the last few years with the improvements in aerodynamics. The higher the average speed in an ITT, the more important aerodynamics become. It would be interesting to see the difference between the really big engines like Ganna and Wout vs Remco in an ITT that is constantly 2-3% uphill. My guess is that the lower average speed would make it a lot more about raw power, but I'd have to look at the result.

Back in the day TTs were more about raw power, so I guess that's why it seems that the bigger guys had an advantage there that they no longer have. I guess it's just a side effect of aerodynamics becoming more and more important.

You're replacing a resistance that is squared with height by a resistance that is the cube of height, while also reducing the one variable that should be the same for both big and small guys by reducing rolling resistance.

It should favor the lighter rider unless they sacrifice a lot more W for aero than the bigger guys, or if their ability to churn out watts just changes when going against gravity

 

[Red Rick]

I don't follow this logic. Why is it hard for a big guy to get aero on a road bike? It's more about proportions. Boonen had notably short legs and the nature of his results suggest he was pretty aero on a road bike.

In terms of body proportions, short legs are associated with sprinters while long legs are associated with climbers and TTers.

 

[dominikk85]

Honestly I think that is probably more informative. I bet all data points are within 60-75kg except big mig. When you have a taller GC guy like Froome winning, he's still (freakishly) lightweight. According to google, just 2 kg more than Pog, and the same as the Schlecks. But I didn't make that graph nor do I plan to dig up the data for weight.

So height is probably a bit of a red herring. You can't be tall and of a "normal" build, but you can be tall(ish) and super slight. Note that this is not about dieting; most tall people would start to lose power long before they were as skinny as Froome. You can also be average height or a little short and have a more proportional build (like Pog). Taylor Phinney could not be a GC rider, but a shorter rider with a similarly muscular build such as Brandon McNulty could be a GC rider. On the other end, too lightweight and the bike is an anchor.

So while controlling for weight, height matters less. It just so happens that height is strongly correlated with minimum functional bodyweight.

Who is the heaviest tdf winner in the last 50 years? Indurain? I think he was like 175 or so.

 

[Mayomaniac]

You're replacing a resistance that is squared with height by a resistance that is the cube of height, while also reducing the one variable that should be the same for both big and small guys by reducing rolling resistance.

It should favor the lighter rider unless they sacrifice a lot more W for aero than the bigger guys, or if their ability to churn out watts just changes when going against gravity

Yeah, the big question is how much you sacrifice on a 2-3% gradient because gravity compared to how much the other guy gains out of aerodynamics vs raw wattage output at really high speeds. I'm not an expert, but I think I'd like to see a tt like that once of twice.

 

[Mayomaniac]

It is an interesting topic, in sports like Ski Mountaineering the guys who dominate the uphill races are all super skinny, but still around 180cm tall, because long leverages and stride length matters a lot. Same in classic technique xc skiing where very few of the top male skiers (if any) are under 180cm tall.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah, the big question is how much you sacrifice on a 2-3% gradient because gravity compared to how much the other guy gains out of aerodynamics vs raw wattage output at really high speeds. I'm not an expert, but I think I'd like to see a tt like that once of twice.

There was a TT like that in Poland last year, but it wasn't very long and the field was lol.

 

[Mayomaniac]

There was a TT like that in Poland last year, but it wasn't very long and the field was lol.

Yeah, but that one still had over 2kms at 6%. But yeah, Gall was in the stage top 25, so you're not wrong about the TT field...

 

[proffate]

Surely proportion play a role, but someone like Ganna will always have longer torso and arms than Evenepoel, unless of a comically proportioned individual, and given that the amount of space between the saddle and the handlebar is limited, the former will always find it easier than the latter to fit in that space. Look at a picture of these two and you would see that Remco looks pretty natural in is aero position, while Ganna looks more crouched, and is arms are flailing outwards, which surely does not reduce drag. Also, taller guys have broader shoulder, so they have a bigger benefit from the possibility of using the aero bar to bring their arms in and making their frontal profile smaller

None of this makes any sense nor is there a different between road and TT.

Why would a long torso matter? It's horizontal.

Why would long arms matter? You just adjust your touch points.

The space from saddle to handlebar is adjustable based on frame size and stem length.

If Ganna hasn't bothered to optimize his position on a road bike and Evenepoel has, that has nothing to do with their heights.

 

[proffate]

You're replacing a resistance that is squared with height by a resistance that is the cube of height, while also reducing the one variable that should be the same for both big and small guys by reducing rolling resistance.

Rolling resistance is proportional to speed and weight, so advantage small riders.

 

[Red Rick]

None of this makes any sense nor is there a different between road and TT.

Why would a long torso matter? It's horizontal.

Why would long arms matter? You just adjust your touch points.

The space from saddle to handlebar is adjustable based on frame size and stem length.

If Ganna hasn't bothered to optimize his position on a road bike and Evenepoel has, that has nothing to do with their heights.

Leg length matters a metric *** ton though.

Put them next to each other and Gannas bum just about reaches Remcos shoulders.

 

[proffate]

In terms of body proportions, short legs are associated with sprinters while long legs are associated with climbers and TTers.

Maybe in your head, but is there any kind of data to back this up?

Short leg/long torso is more aerodynamic --- imagine an alligator on a bike. That thing would be a rocket. It also helps to be knock-kneed.

Long legs are not an advantage to climbing, but they don't hurt either.

 

[carton]

So going over this again, given a standard deviation of 6cm and an average height of 1.75cm, you should find that 95% of riders should be between 1.63m and 1.87m. Given that there are at least over a dozen current WT riders over 1.87 and none that I can think of under 1.63cm, what you really find is that cycling's current rule structure is clearly biased towards taller-than-average riders, that is, taller riders are at an advantage.

Again, I think it's more of a floor dictated by the 6.8kg weight limit and the bike weight not being perfectly correlated to rider weight than anything else. But I think the conclusion that shorter than average riders are overrepresented and taller than average riders are not is almost unassailable. Maybe the fact that they are not quite as advantaged as compared to other sports like basketball or tennis or Nordic skiing or whatever is what is salient to some here.

 

[Cookster15]

Who is the heaviest tdf winner in the last 50 years? Indurain? I think he was like 175 or so.

I think so? I think 175 for Indurain was about right (79Kg). But Big Mig was rumoured to be able to generate a sustained 500 watts which at this weight works out to 6.3W/Kg. But we all know what was happening in cycling back then so maybe we leave that in this forum 😉

 

[QueenStagiaire]

So going over this again, given a standard deviation of 6cm and an average height of 1.75cm, you should find that 95% of riders should be between 1.63m and 1.87m. Given that there are at least over a dozen current WT riders over 1.87 and none that I can think of under 1.63cm, what you really find is that cycling's current rule structure is clearly biased towards taller-than-average riders, that is, taller riders are at an advantage.

Again, I think it's more of a floor dictated by the 6.8kg weight limit and the bike weight not being perfectly correlated to rider weight than anything else. But I think the conclusion that shorter than average riders are overrepresented and taller than average riders are not is almost unassailable. Maybe the fact that they are not quite as advantaged as compared to other sports like basketball or tennis or Nordic skiing or whatever is what is salient to some here.

I think it also shows that most cycling powerhouses are European countries which have taller average heights. Very short riders are probably still at a disadvantage, but if you adjust for where pro cyclists come from with an average of 1.80, the results won‘t be quite as extreme, partly because in many European countries, the average man is even taller.

 

[RedheadDane]

Given that there are at least over a dozen current WT riders over 1.87 and none that I can think of under 1.63cm,

Laurens Huys. Just!
And I suppose that still doesn't change the fact that you didn't think about him.

 

[carton]

I think it also shows that most cycling powerhouses are European countries which have taller average heights. Very short riders are probably still at a disadvantage, but if you adjust for where pro cyclists come from with an average of 1.80, the results won‘t be quite as extreme, partly because in many European countries, the average man is even taller.

So national average height differences bar for the Netherlands aren't that big. Looking at the top 10 cycling countries only the Netherlands (1.84) has an average measured height of over 1.80m, and in the flip side Colombia has an average height of 1.71. So no way is the average of the pool of riders 1.80, and even if you want to bump the average up a couple of cm to 1.77m the point would still stand.

Also you would have a bit of a causation problem, having less men shorter than the hypothetical floor (again, there is now -only thanks to the ginger one- one current WT rider that I know of 1.63m or under) might be a reason why those countries have more WT riders compared say Colombia or Ethiopia.

And finally I would venture that particularly the GC talent pool is a bit more of a worldwide one than the WT one. A prodigious stage race prospect from a non-tradional country like Costa Rica or Ecuador or Kenya or Slovenia has a greater chance of getting through to the World Tour than would say a Morrocan Tim Declercq. So I 1.75 might be the right average after all.

 

[dominikk85]

So going over this again, given a standard deviation of 6cm and an average height of 1.75cm, you should find that 95% of riders should be between 1.63m and 1.87m. Given that there are at least over a dozen current WT riders over 1.87 and none that I can think of under 1.63cm, what you really find is that cycling's current rule structure is clearly biased towards taller-than-average riders, that is, taller riders are at an advantage.

Again, I think it's more of a floor dictated by the 6.8kg weight limit and the bike weight not being perfectly correlated to rider weight than anything else. But I think the conclusion that shorter than average riders are overrepresented and taller than average riders are not is almost unassailable. Maybe the fact that they are not quite as advantaged as compared to other sports like basketball or tennis or Nordic skiing or whatever is what is salient to some here.

White Europeans under 40 are more like 180cm on average though. Nordic Europeans like belgium, norway, denmark, Germany or Holland which make up a large chunk of the professional field are even taller and more like over 180 on average in that age group and Demographic (posted a link of young dutch men being 183 on average and probably even a bit taller for white dutch).

According to that link only 12% of dutch men born in 2001 are under 175cm and the cohort of 190+ is actually larger than under 175.

How tall are Dutch people?

In 2020, the average 19-year-old male born in the Netherlands was 182.9 cm tall; females of this age were 169.3 cm on average.

longreads.cbs.nl

Southern European and South American riders might be shorter on average than Danish, Belgian or Dutch riders, but not sure.

 

[dominikk85]

obviously overall weight is much more important than height. There are some tall guys that are very skinny like frank schleck who was like 6'1 145 but of course that could lead to have less strength in the legs than a guy who is the same weight but 3 inches shorter because the shorter guy can be more "compact" and still have the same weight.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

None of this makes any sense nor is there a different between road and TT.

Why would a long torso matter? It's horizontal.

Why would long arms matter? You just adjust your touch points.

The space from saddle to handlebar is adjustable based on frame size and stem length.

If Ganna hasn't bothered to optimize his position on a road bike and Evenepoel has, that has nothing to do with their heights.

So you gonna tell me that Ganna, while targeting some of the fastest race in the calendar like San Remo and Roubaix, decided to not optimize is aero position and waste precious watts?

And to the bolded, yes you can, but there are rules that limit how far back and forward you can push the saddle and the handlebar respectively.