Are tall riders at a disadvantage for GC wins?

[Nick2413]

As others have said, height hasn’t really been going down, but weight and BMI have.

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Due to allometric scaling taller guys will generally be better at TT because they have a bigger power increase than frontal area increase. Aka body weight and muscle mass increase exponentially per linear increase in frontal area, but drag only increases linearly to frontal area (despite increasing exponentially to speed). So a 10% weight increase might mean 8% more power and ~6% more frontal area, a benefit for TT but not necessarily climbing. The weight of the bike is a bigger percentage of total weight being moved for really tiny guys though which probably makes a small difference when 2 climbers of different size are at a similar level.

TT rules have benefited shorter riders because of the way they have to set up their bikes, so that is actually a rule worth changing to even the playing field, which they did this year, aka tall people now reap the benefits that were artificially taken from them.

Remco looks freakishly aero, but small guys like him have to be in order to approach the same power to CdA of the top big guys. There will probably be a top big guy built with godlike proportions like Remco some day and you’d expect him to be even better than we’ve ever seen.


Then there’s all the stuff like lung capacity and cardiac output, heat dissipation, which aren’t necessarily only important in relative terms..

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Disagree. Aerodynamic drag is a function of drag coefficient (incl aero position) and frontal area.

Short riders like Remco (171cm) also have lower frontal area which negates any disadvantage of a less aero TT position. Another example was Domenico Pozzovivo who was only 165cm but could do a good TT when on form e.g. 2013 Vuelta. Also, in sprinting Cavendish was relatively short compared to other sprinters.

What exactly are you disagreeing with? Taller riders are less aero, but they are allowed to put their arms in a more angled position than smaller riders. There is nothing here to disagree with, this is how it is. Having their arms at a more angled position, improves their aerodynamics.

 

[Cookster15]

What exactly are you disagreeing with? Taller riders are less aero, but they are allowed to put their arms in a more angled position than smaller riders. There is nothing here to disagree with, this is how it is. Having their arms at a more angled position, improves their aerodynamics.

I am disagreeing with your understanding of “aerodynamics”.

Aerodynamics is also about frontal area and not simply position on the bike or drag coefficient. Here is the formula. You can apply this to riders.

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[nightowl]

Personally, I’m quite happy with what they did to change the TT position rules for taller riders. It makes raw power output more important again, which is what makes TTing interesting in the context of Grand Tour GC battle.

 

[dominikk85]

Regarding average male height you have to consider age and to some extent race.

If you look at US average for example white and Black men are taller than Asien and Latino men.

Also age plays a role, the younger Generation is significantly taller

For example in the netherlands the average man born in 1930 was 175cm tall and the average man born in 2001 was 183cm. Interestingly the average man born in 1980 was even taller, not sure why it became a little shorter (maybe immigration?)

How tall are Dutch people?

In 2020, the average 19-year-old male born in the Netherlands was 182.9 cm tall; females of this age were 169.3 cm on average.

longreads.cbs.nl

 

[Volderke]

Height of TDF winners over time does not support the thesis that shorter riders are gaining advantage relative to taller riders.

And it's not really that "short" riders have an advantage anyway, or we'd see Pozzovivo winning more. It's that average height riders have an advantage.

Top marathon runners are all in the range of 5'5" - 5'9". Kipchoge is 5'7" and I don't think you can get much more perfect than him. Top road cycling GC riders are slightly taller than that, probably due to aerodynamics playing a larger role and/or a result of the equipment weight handicap smaller riders face.

Aside from physiology, a small part of the clustering around the same height is likely due to equipment. I argue that bicycles are designed to work well in the 52-54cm range and very small or very large bikes are just less efficient. (It seems obvious that the optimal wheel size, for example, would not be the same for all humans, but all competitors are using 700c wheels.) Obviously if we used HPVs instead of upright bicycles for racing TTs, the winners would skew taller. Likewise if the weight limit for bikes were 50lbs then smaller riders would have a harder time up climbs. So there is a large degree to which this is all arbitrary and not just physics.

Please make the same graph for rider's weight.
I got an unpleasant feeling that fat guys like me are less likely to win the Tour. I want to see data so I can make my case that it's unfair.

 

[topcat]

I’m 5’7” (170 cm to Europeans), 54 years old and have a resting heart rate of 37 bpm. Can I win the tour?
Should Pog and Vingo be shitting themselves?

 

[dominikk85]

Please make the same graph for rider's weight.
I got an unpleasant feeling that fat guys like me are less likely to win the Tour. I want to see data so I can make my case that it's unfair.

I would say GC winners never have been really heavy, most probably were below 160.

However I do feel that recently the weight did get even lower, many of the current young GC contender generation are around 140-145, it feels like the older generation of GC riders that dominated the 2010s like Thomas, froome where more like 150-155.

Of course that all might be a total coincidence that those current stars are just build like that and soon we will see another 6 ft 155 pound star winning.

sometimes trends do get overinterpreted because of the way the current stars happen to be like (like mashing vs spinning discussion when everyone said you need to be strong and mash when Ulrich won and then when Armstrong won it was "no, you need to spin fast") but in reality that might just have been the way that rider was gifted the best and not a general advantage.

 

[Anderis]

Taller guys aren't at a disadvantage. They are physically less suited to compete for GC. There's a subtle but important difference there.

What's the difference because to me those two sentences mean pretty much the same thing.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I’m 5’7” (170 cm to Europeans), 54 years old and have a resting heart rate of 37 bpm. Can I win the tour?
Should Pog and Vingo be shitting themselves?

Well you already won Lombardia last year, but you're a marked man now and that is the weakest of the monuments. Also I'm not sure if you can transfer that form into three weeks.

 

[dominikk85]

I’m 5’7” (170 cm to Europeans), 54 years old and have a resting heart rate of 37 bpm. Can I win the tour?
Should Pog and Vingo be shitting themselves?

Are you alejandro Valverde ?

 

[gregrowlerson]

Are you alejandro Valverde ?

Valverde never won Lombardia.

 

[Mayomaniac]

a lot of those disadvantages only really became a thing in the last few years with the improvements in aerodynamics. The higher the average speed in an ITT, the more important aerodynamics become. It would be interesting to see the difference between the really big engines like Ganna and Wout vs Remco in an ITT that is constantly 2-3% uphill. My guess is that the lower average speed would make it a lot more about raw power, but I'd have to look at the result.

Back in the day TTs were more about raw power, so I guess that's why it seems that the bigger guys had an advantage there that they no longer have. I guess it's just a side effect of aerodynamics becoming more and more important.

 

[topcat]

Well you already won Lombardia last year, but you're a marked man now and that is the weakest of the monuments. Also I'm not sure if you can transfer that form into three weeks.

Of course. I peaked for the Giro this year but I had to pull out because the forum turned into Shaun of the Dead. I’m lying low, going for a week long fishing camp and I’m going to be a surprise late entry to the tour.

 

[bNator]

There are no "rules" that put larger guys at a disadvantage. It's all physics. And if ever there were honest, unbiased and universal rules, it's the laws of physics.

And I feel like I'm repeating myself (or @Vesica to be precise): Tom Dumoulin. Geraint Thomas. Vincenzo Nibali.

It's not all physics. Some of it is arbitrary. For instance:
1. Minimum wight of the bike. Why is it set at 6.8 kg? If it was set lower, the rules would prefer smaller/lighter riders and if it was set higher, the rules would prefer taller/heavier/stronger riders.
2. Aero specifics of the bike (as already mentioned). Similar story, the more aero the bike is, the more it favours smaller riders.
3. That is not a rule but a trend. Why do we have 40.000 vertical meters of climbing and only 20-ish km of TTs in recent GTs? This is completely arbitrary and it favours smaller rider heavily (Remco obviously being an exception here).

There are many rules that currently favour smaller riders that are completely artificial and have nothing to do with being unbiased universal rules of the sport...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I am disagreeing with your understanding of “aerodynamics”.

Aerodynamics is also about frontal area and not simply position on the bike or drag coefficient. Here is the formula. You can apply this to riders.

It seems like you are reading things in my post i did not say or claim. Where on earth did i exclude or include things or set a definition of what entails aerodynamics? I said that they are less aerodynamic, and are allowed to put their arms in a way that short riders aren't, which improves their aerodynamics.

What's the difference because to me those two sentences mean pretty much the same thing.

My heart and long capacity have decided for me that i will never win a GT. Clearly i am at a disadvantage, so i eagerly await UCI rulechanges so that chumps like me can win TDF.

 

[theyoungest]

3. That is not a rule but a trend. Why do we have 40.000 vertical meters of climbing and only 20-ish km of TTs in recent GTs? This is completely arbitrary and it favours smaller rider heavily (Remco obviously being an exception here).

This is not really true. In 2018 you had quite a climbing heavy Tour, yet the podium was Thomas-Dumoulin-Froome. I think it's more just a coincidence that the current crop of GT riders is slightly smaller. There's no reason why there couldn't be a Dumoulin again (and Thomas is still there). Evenepoel, as you say, leans probably more toward these bigger guys, in terms of characteristics.

 

[bNator]

This is not really true. In 2018 you had quite a climbing heavy Tour, yet the podium was Thomas-Dumoulin-Froome. I think it's more just a coincidence that the current crop of GT riders is slightly smaller. There's no reason why there couldn't be a Dumoulin again (and Thomas is still there). Evenepoel, as you say, leans probably more toward these bigger guys, in terms of characteristics.

A route with more climbing and less TT favours smaller guys when compared to a route with less climbing and more TT. Whether it does affect the outcome is another question...

 

[Anderis]

My heart and long capacity have decided for me that i will never win a GT. Clearly i am at a disadvantage, so i eagerly await UCI rulechanges so that chumps like me can win TDF.

I sense some sarcasm but I fail to see how's that relevant to the post that you have quoted.

 

[theyoungest]

A route with more climbing and less TT favours smaller guys when compared to a route with less climbing and more TT. Whether it does affect the outcome is another question...

Is there a better indicator than the result to say a parcours favours one rider over the other? If a climby race results in three tall guys on the podium, apparently they weren't that much at a disadvantage...

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Regarding average male height you have to consider age and to some extent race.

If you look at US average for example white and Black men are taller than Asien and Latino men.

Also age plays a role, the younger Generation is significantly taller

For example in the netherlands the average man born in 1930 was 175cm tall and the average man born in 2001 was 183cm. Interestingly the average man born in 1980 was even taller, not sure why it became a little shorter (maybe immigration?)

How tall are Dutch people?

In 2020, the average 19-year-old male born in the Netherlands was 182.9 cm tall; females of this age were 169.3 cm on average.

longreads.cbs.nl

mainly migration and their offsprings yeah. Northern african migrants mostly and they are simply a lot shorter

 

[bNator]

Is there a better indicator than the result to say a parcours favours one rider over the other? If a climby race results in three tall guys on the podium, apparently they weren't that much at a disadvantage...

You know what, I really don't have to do this. Go ahead and think that more climbs favours taller/heavier guys and more TT favours small/lighter guys. I don't care...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I sense some sarcasm but I fail to see how's that relevant to the post that you have quoted.

Ok, didn't expect it not to be clear, so i'll try the long way. You are born in the body you have to live with. Tall or short, athletic or not. You may be less suited for certain physical efforts, but you still have the same opportunities. Nobody is keeping tall riders from trying to go for GC, many have and successfully so. The context of the post you were originally referring to or at least implied, was one in line with the discussion at hand, where being at a disadvantage means that it needs to be rectified. If artificial changes have to be applied in order to level the playing field, then what even is the use in having a contest at all? If tall riders need to be helped in an artificial way, then why do short riders not get artificial help when they are at a disadvantage?

 

[Anderis]

Ok, didn't expect it not to be clear, so i'll try the long way. You are born in the body you have to live with. Tall or short, athletic or not. You may be less suited for certain physical efforts, but you still have the same opportunities. Nobody is keeping tall riders from trying to go for GC, many have and successfully so. The context of the post you were originally referring to or at least implied, was one in line with the discussion at hand, where being at a disadvantage means that it needs to be rectified. If artificial changes have to be applied in order to level the playing field, then what even is the use in having a contest at all? If tall riders need to be helped in an artificial way, then why do short riders not get artificial help when they are at a disadvantage?

Your interpretation of my post is way off the mark.

I just wanted to point out that being physically less suited for something is a disadvantage. The dictionary definition of a disadvantage:

an unfavourable circumstance or condition that reduces the chances of success or effectiveness.

Being physically less suited to be successful at something perfectly fits the definition of a disadvantage, so saying that being physically less suited to something and being at a disadvantage are two different things seems logically wrong to me.

In no way did I try to suggest there's any viable way to rectify someone being at a disadvantage in that aspect.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

a lot of those disadvantages only really became a thing in the last few years with the improvements in aerodynamics. The higher the average speed in an ITT, the more important aerodynamics become. It would be interesting to see the difference between the really big engines like Ganna and Wout vs Remco in an ITT that is constantly 2-3% uphill. My guess is that the lower average speed would make it a lot more about raw power, but I'd have to look at the result.

Back in the day TTs were more about raw power, so I guess that's why it seems that the bigger guys had an advantage there that they no longer have. I guess it's just a side effect of aerodynamics becoming more and more important.

I generally agree that aerodynamics has become more important in the last years, however i don't necessarily think it favors the small guys, who can get pretty aero even on their normal road bike. There have been a lot of, relatively, short guys that were amazing TTers in the past, from Hinault and Saronni in the late '70 and '80, to Berzin and Rominger in the '90, and even further back in time, Anquetil was no giant. I think using the aerobars is massive advantage for the tall guy cause it helps them reduce their frontal aera, something that is much harder with a road bike for them.