Armstrong & Unity

[Martin318is]

Martin318,

If we were dealing with a non-corrupt governing body, I'd agree with both of you... But we're not.

True - but there are a lot of other corrupt sporting bodies out there that still manage to get more positive press than negative (I am talking about topics OTHER than doping here).

 

[flicker]

from my understanding Sicialian mob bosses do alot of "good" for their communities too. They can be benevolent businessmen, as that is crucial to their support in the community. They tend to be among the largest supporters of charity and give away vast sums to good causes.
I think it is pretty commonplace, for example, to support those children orphaned by the actions of the mob controlled by the Godfather.
Of course if there was no mob those children would have their parents for support, which they might prefer.

A true "patron" does not call for silence
a Godfather does.
Why would a patron not want transparency? If you are proud of the Army you lead on the road you want their to be no question that it is beyond reproach and that you are a noble leader. What honour can come from repressing the masses my friend?

I have a lot of fun being a part of the kangaroo court on doping.

I do think that people sniping, myself including myself is harmful.

I also see the biased internet blogsites attacking individuals. That makes the sport look bad.

Cycling needs to govern itself. Anarchy is when Spain shoots at Italy, Italy attacks Spain. Specifically Valverde and Puerto. I am referring to doping in cycling. Contadors' public stance and Valverdes' public stance on doping I find distasteful.

I do also think when individuals who are retired cyclists attack current riders it makes the sport look bad.

If the organizations and riders, and the countries who have riders work together it is a good thing. The sport needs to stop, take a look at itself, admit there is a problem and move on.

If you want to look at what not to do, take a look at Germany, zero pro teams. Many fine riders and no native cycling sponsorship.

 

[Andynonomous]

No transparency for you !

So Lance doesn't want the public to know the real state of affairs inside cycling ("handle it internally" is clear code for "cover it up").

Is he so stupid as to not know what message this sends out about his own attitudes ?

 

[Merckx index]

He is talking about the other stuff that frankly hurts cycling too such as the race radio debates, whinging about stage routes, and the biggies such as the composition of the ProTour and who gets race invites etc.

Yeah, airing the dirty linen on those issues really hurts cycling's image with the 99.9999% of the population who know nothing about the sport beyond LA and the TDF. Yeah, things like race radios and stage routes are a huge issue compared to doping, just like Lindsay Lohan's latest encounter with the law really hurts America's image, right up there with some of the things revealed on Wiki. If we could just do something about LL, people all over the world would love America, just as if cycling could come to a decision about race radios, the sport would have so much more credibility with the general public. So let's keep hammering away on those huge issues, and once those are resolved, everything else will fall into place.

I give LA credit, though, the diversion does work. Just look at college football (American style). Some people are so traumatized over the current BCS system that it takes revelation of a Cam Newton or OSU 5 money scam to wake them up to the fact that there are larger issues. Then again, if you don't care that all those offensive linemen are doped to the gills, why should you care if some of their teammates are on salary?

 

[rhubroma]

True - but there are a lot of other corrupt sporting bodies out there that still manage to get more positive press than negative (I am talking about topics OTHER than doping here).

Yes, but you have to admit that if other sports don't have to talk about their doping issues it is precisely because they have been able to place the necessary pressure to bear and have the mass media stay much out of their "internal" affairs. And this boils down to how much money they generate and make circulate.

In other words they have enough support from enough private interests to render their omertà acceptably opaque before a largely unconcerned society.

Though this is decidedly not the case with cycling, which has rather found a disobliging mass media and public. Probably because it is economically weaker, is obviously a logical candidate for mass doping practices because of its gruelingness and so made into the scapegoat "story" for a moralistic and hypocritical society. Such has impelled the UCI to ever more corrupt praxis and led to the peurile sectarian divisions (also because taking place within an international context) that literally make cycling, in addition to being the athletic activity most scrutinized publicly, the laughing stock of professional sport. To many casual observers around the globe, therefore, cycling seems like some freakish Vaudeville circus act and not the most noble of outdoor activities we know it to be.

Lance is certainly addressing all these issues, however, the problem of finding an accepted omertà, the very notion of which is repugnant because it counts on (as in other sports) a moralistic public and not one with actual morals, is fundamental to resolving all the rest, which necessarily implicates doping.

The very notion that resolving cyclings many problems, for which doping is chief among them, shoud be exclusively done internally and independently withing the sport; is a sordid casuistry that arrogantly illustrates for all who are listening with any critical intelligence exactly what Lance stands, and has always stood, for: Godfather like omertà.

His is the problem, never the solution. And it is merely a shame that all his money and sway before a stupid fan base continues to make him a protagonist within the sport, even if his athletic worth has decidely exceeded its expiration date.

 

[Roland Rat]

Weird,
I came away from that article agreeing with him. Note that during the bit about keeping stuff out of the media he does NOT mention doping. He is talking about the other stuff that frankly hurts cycling too such as the race radio debates, whinging about stage routes, and the biggies such as the composition of the ProTour and who gets race invites etc.

I think he is right. In other sports these things are solved by people sitting in rooms and discussing it and not moving on until they then present a united front to the media. In cycling they agree something and then all get out there like snipers shooting each other down and blaming everybody else. The team managers are as much at fault for the state of the sport in some cases as the UCI and ASO etc.

The only sport I know of that is near as bad in that regard is Forumla One.

Clearly the guy promotes the idea of keeping drug conversations quiet, but that wasnt what he was talking about here.

Martin, in the last two years who have been the most publically-vocal dirty laundry washers when it comes to such administrative matters? The Hog and Armstrong. His is a typically self-serving response spun to look like a thoughtful and considered argument.

The whole article is spin to make him look like he is doing "too many good things for too many people" and it makes me sick.

 

[Martin318is]

Yeah, airing the dirty linen on those issues really hurts cycling's image with the 99.9999% of the population who know nothing about the sport beyond LA and the TDF. Yeah, things like race radios and stage routes are a huge issue compared to doping, just like Lindsay Lohan's latest encounter with the law really hurts America's image, right up there with some of the things revealed on Wiki. If we could just do something about LL, people all over the world would love America, just as if cycling could come to a decision about race radios, the sport would have so much more credibility with the general public. So let's keep hammering away on those huge issues, and once those are resolved, everything else will fall into place.

I give LA credit, though, the diversion does work. Just look at college football (American style). Some people are so traumatized over the current BCS system that it takes revelation of a Cam Newton or OSU 5 money scam to wake them up to the fact that there are larger issues. Then again, if you don't care that all those offensive linemen are doped to the gills, why should you care if some of their teammates are on salary?

Whose mouth are you attempting to put words into? Mine or Lance's? Either way, you are engaging in a classic case of applying your own bias to my comments. I was speaking of topics independant of doping that also hurt the sport. At no time did I evaluate them against the doping issue as being more or less important - they just exist too.

I was refering to things like teams not getting sponsors because the sponsor cannot be sure they will get an invite to X race. This occurs because the teams, organisers and UCI cannot reach agreement. And one reason that they can't is that they all whine about each other in public instead of working together and creating a cohesive dialogue.

I am sorry if the lack of the word dope in that paragraph has caused you personal injury.

 

[Martin318is]

Martin, in the last two years who have been the most publically-vocal dirty laundry washers when it comes to such administrative matters? The Hog and Armstrong. His is a typically self-serving response spun to look like a thoughtful and considered argument.

Yep - I will happily agree with that. I think we can all agree that the first step to a positive story for cycling is that if Lance and the Hog (and a few others, too) are nolonger in it.

My comments though were specific to the point raised. It seems I am pretty good at analysing comments without caring who actually says them.... sometimes....

Anyway, I just think it would be nice if - since Doping is the biggest issue cycling faces - it was the ONLY issue that cycling faces in public. In Melbourne, Australia, although we have a great criterium series that just finished a day or two ago, the majority of the public that have picked up anything about cycling are talking about Pegasus - not dope. The Pegasus issue is another example of the sport shooting itself in the foot and is an example of the type of thing that I think should have been better handled by more communication behind doors and less in public (that may even have resulted in the team getting a license).

 

[BikeCentric]

a stupid fan base

Great post all in all but I'm singling out the main true problem with cycling and why it's not getting better. I'm probably jaded since I live in America and Americans are very clueless about what is such a small sport here but even this discussion board encompasses English speakers from all over and the cluelessness about the sport is truly astounding.

In America you can go to any bar on any weekend during football season and talk to a random joe six-pack who's got very good football knowledge, from what every position on the field does on every play, to the danger of concussions, to steriods. There aren't many illusions among the fanbase of that sport to just name one.

Yet cycling for what ever reason seems to attract fans who want to believe in myths and want to put every rider on a pedestal for adulation. I just don't understand the mindset. Fans here of the big American sports, baseball and football, are very critical of the players on the teams they root for. They know they are getting paid well and they will turn on the players in a second if they start to underperform or bring disrepute upon their team. Yet in cycling the spandex-clad Gods can do no wrong. It's very, very strange.

 

[Nick777]

Yep - I will happily agree with that. I think we can all agree that the first step to a positive story for cycling is that if Lance and the Hog (and a few others, too) are nolonger in it.
.

Careful - for a second there you were beginning to sound like BPC...!

 

[Martin318is]

Careful - for a second there you were beginning to sound like BPC...!

Are you certain that I am not this BPC that you speak of?

 

[The Hitch]

Careful - for a second there you were beginning to sound like BPC...!

Careful? CNF has decided that BPC doesnt exist and never did. Oh and never will. All record of his existance including the "No BPC club", has been cut out of the history books.

For more info read "Animal Farm".

Now lets never speak of this again.

 

[rhubroma]

Great post all in all but I'm singling out the main true problem with cycling and why it's not getting better. I'm probably jaded since I live in America and Americans are very clueless about what is such a small sport here but even this discussion board encompasses English speakers from all over and the cluelessness about the sport is truly astounding.

In America you can go to any bar on any weekend during football season and talk to a random joe six-pack who's got very good football knowledge, from what every position on the field does on every play, to the danger of concussions, to steriods. There aren't many illusions among the fanbase of that sport to just name one.

Yet cycling for what ever reason seems to attract fans who want to believe in myths and want to put every rider on a pedestal for adulation. I just don't understand the mindset. Fans here of the big American sports, baseball and football, are very critical of the players on the teams they root for. They know they are getting paid well and they will turn on the players in a second if they start to underperform or bring disrepute upon their team. Yet in cycling the spandex-clad Gods can do no wrong. It's very, very strange.

Well when I started riding and racing a bike back in the 80's in America, there was this naive take for sure among the group that first brought me into the sport. Their innocence was I think partly based on so called American values, which they believed the natural order for an alternative activity in which they participated and hoped would not be corrupted, and the fact that they simply came by cyling late in a land where it wasn't much practiced nor taken very seriously (as say in Belgium). That view prevailed until, rather soon I might add, one guy told me that the pros in Europe were all doping. He had raced on the US junior national team back in the late 70's in Belgium, til a friend and team mate was killed on the road by a car when they were out training together, the trauma from which probably ended a burgeoning pro career. His opinion, therefore, perhaps had been based on some peripheral (if not only) experience.

That was the first time anyone had ever mentioned doping to me and bike racing. Naturally in my inexperienced and sheltered youth I wanted to, rather stupidly and naively, delude myself in believing that at least the Americans could not be involved with that sordid practice. Then I recalled how many of my high school class mates were on roids in the gyms to prepare for their football teams, in the hopes of scoring a big college scholarship (and were talking about the 80's). Still it was hard at the time to imagine what cyclists, in far away lands, could be up to.

Then I came to Europe to race in the 90's and it was like suddenly the blinders were removed.

In any case it has been my impression that cycling fans are pretty much broken down into to opposing camps: those who are just green wet-backs and so clueless (within which many a fan-boy back in the US pertains) and those who have some idea as to what's going on. Within the latter group you also have a large quantity of seasoned European veteran fans (who in many cases have been themselves ex-riders holding not insignificant attainments within the sport), who know full well how the game's been played for decades (also because they too had "played" the game), but couldn't care less for love and passion of the sport. In other words they watch under no illusions.

Whether or not cycling is beginning to change I don't know, but what I do know is that the likes of Mr. Armstrong certainly would hope, as his comments have indicated, that "change" only occurs in a way that is convenient to him. For those who may be persuaded to increase the sport's fan-base from today and in the future, people who economically increase cycling, it would seem from Armstrong's comments should not be informed about the sport's internal workings. Such would be the surest way for him to remain "mythical" and thus enjoy a continued degree of power within the cycling establishment, which is what he is probably counting in order to not be dropped by them in his quest to mount a convincing and well-backed defense.

This, of course, is meaningless to most European fans who already know, but those are not the people he is concerned about. He has always said he only rides for those who believe in him and they are by far to be found in his native US soil, as well as perhaps other "non-initiated" regions of innocence. Ironically, it is from his same homeland that the greatest threat to his persona has also come forth in the feds. Whereas, till now at least, the traditional cycling world has only ever made the most feeble attempts at bringing him to task, such as at the Tour because one doesn't shoot oneself in the foot. It's not really good business practice.

I think the media plays into this very strongly, because whereas it thrives on sports like soccer, football, baseball, basketball etc., and consequently trys not to spit too heavily on the plate from which it eats; in regards to cycling the journalism has perhaps profited even more form attacking the two-wheeled sport with sensational articles of doping scandals and all the rest than in leaving it unassailed. Armstrong probably knows this better than most. This was the message his "keep everything within/don't tell" rational at any rate communicated to me. He seems to be interested in having the sport perceived by the media first and foremost differently than it has been of late, ironically not least owing to his own problematical dilemma. Certainly having more myth believers and less informed fans is better, as it has always been, to sustaining his career.

The US media especially had always, till now, treated him with obsequious deference, but is even among the most loyal pundits beginning to loose faith. Perhaps I'm speaking utter nonsense, however, Lance seems quite worried about how the sport is generally looked upon as a reflection of his own declining public image.

 

[runninboy]

I disagree with the concept that cycling airs its dirty laundry in public whereas other sports get a pass.
The problem is perspective, here we read everything about cycling and digest & regurgitate it amongst our little circle. However generally i would believe that most of us do not do that with other sports.
NBA Memphis Grizzlies just had a fight on their charter plane over a card game. Then it was mentioned this is the same game that caused another fight on another team. Then multiple reports on how it all went down from people on the inside etc etc etc
Same day multiple reports on Coach vs Player shouting match on the current world champion. Then goes on to document the players previous troubles involving brandishing guns in the locker room etc etc.
Controversy as to why the marquee players do not participate in the Slam Dunk contest at the All Star game.
A team owner who is experiencing a rash of racial lawsuits
League contraction being discussed, Labor issues ETC ETC ETC
that is just a small slice of the NBA lately
Football has tons of controversy beyond drugs
Brett Favre sexual harrassment, actually many different sexual harrasment issues Erin Andrews, the Jets, God is everyone in the NFL a sexual deviant?. Coaches tripping opposing players, supposedly coaches ordering players to do the same on more than one team,
Reggie Bush losing a heisman trophy. first time the award was ever taken back. his school now being sanctioned. The current Heisman winner under a similar cloud.
Conference realignment, the BCS, an alternative to the BCS being proposed by an NBA owner,
are these not issues not unlike Pegasus racing & race radios?
I now know the intricacies of a baseball team owners finances, his charity, how he paid team executives through the charity and not their actual job. Who his wife was doing, how much she paid the guy, what his real job was supposed to be, the money that was supposed to be spent on player salary that was diverted to personal accounts of the owner while raising ticket prices. The name of the locker room attendant who used to take deliveries of the drugs for the players. The thank you notes from the players to the drug dealer. I know Roger Clemens got a big old boil on his backside cause he didnt know how to shoot up his illegal drugs that he never took. I know a guy on the hall of fame ballot no longer playing who couldnt hit a home run attributing his instantaneous transformation to a power hitter not to the prevalent drugs of the time but to eating"30 pounds of meat a day" WTF????

Why do i need to know that an NBA owner is being sued by tenants in his properties. Does that make him a slumlord or a racist? How does that affect him financially, how does he choose his coaches and does he really look at his players as slaves and his coaches as white slave drivers as has been alleged? Why does ancient Jerry Buss fill his owners suit with different busty 20 year old strippers every game?
The only thing missing from Pro Sports is the Kardashians, wait too late, one married a NBA player and both of them will have their own reality show. Should i care that Lamar Odom cant swim but he promised his grandmother he would learn?
Should i care how large his appendages are?
these are all things in the "news" that we complain puts cycling in a bad light.
Does Kim Kardashian only date black football players? Is she racist or just got a big booty? How long until she goes after ex Playmate Kendra's wide receiver husband or his he too white for her?

To Martin & others , you are most certainly wrong if you believe that cycling airs more non doping problems than other sports. I believe it is just your myopic perspective and your willingness to devour all of cycling's minutiae and your reluctance to do the same with other sports.

 

[Martin318is]

Sorry, you are on the wrong path there. I am not being Myopic at all (well I am but that is an eye condition I deal with).

I don't know any of those stories about US sport. The only scandal I know of in the last few weeks is the FIFA selection of locations for the world cup. I do however end up hearing stories about NBA teams helping local schools etc.

Its not that I know about all this stuff in cycling because I care, its that if you walk up to a non-cyclist in the street and ask them what they know about the sport they will only be able to come up with negative stories (once you ignore the Lance TdF stuff).

They don't ever hear anything positive about the sport in the regular news. The reason for this is that there are no positive stories to tell (I am ignoring great victories etc here - I am talking about stories other than race wins). The sport spends so much time shooting itself in the foot there ARE no positive stories. (sadly the last one was probably the mislabelled Lance miracle return from cancer)

 

[flicker]

Well when I started riding and racing a bike back in the 80's in America, there was this naive take for sure among the group that first brought me into the sport. Their innocence was I think partly based on so called American values, which they believed the natural order for an alternative activity in which they participated and hoped would not be corrupted, and the fact that they simply came by cyling late in a land where it wasn't much practiced nor taken very seriously (as say in Belgium). That view prevailed until, rather soon I might add, one guy told me that the pros in Europe were all doping. He had raced on the US junior national team back in the late 70's in Belgium, til a friend and team mate was killed on the road by a car when they were out training together, the trauma from which probably ended a burgeoning pro career. His opinion, therefore, perhaps had been based on some peripheral (if not only) experience.

That was the first time anyone had ever mentioned doping to me and bike racing. Naturally in my inexperienced and sheltered youth I wanted to, rather stupidly and naively, delude myself in believing that at least the Americans could not be involved with that sordid practice. Then I recalled how many of my high school class mates were on roids in the gyms to prepare for their football teams, in the hopes of scoring a big college scholarship (and were talking about the 80's). Still it was hard at the time to imagine what cyclists, in far away lands, could be up to.

Then I came to Europe to race in the 90's and it was like suddenly the blinders were removed.

In any case it has been my impression that cycling fans are pretty much broken down into to opposing camps: those who are just green wet-backs and so clueless (within which many a fan-boy back in the US pertains) and those who have some idea as to what's going on. Within the latter group you also have a large quantity of seasoned European veteran fans (who in many cases have been themselves ex-riders holding not insignificant attainments within the sport), who know full well how the game's been played for decades (also because they too had "played" the game), but couldn't care less for love and passion of the sport. In other words they watch under no illusions.

Whether or not cycling is beginning to change I don't know, but what I do know is that the likes of Mr. Armstrong certainly would hope, as his comments have indicated, that "change" only occurs in a way that is convenient to him. For those who may be persuaded to increase the sport's fan-base from today and in the future, people who economically increase cycling, it would seem from Armstrong's comments should not be informed about the sport's internal workings. Such would be the surest way for him to remain "mythical" and thus enjoy a continued degree of power within the cycling establishment, which is what he is probably counting in order to not be dropped by them in his quest to mount a convincing and well-backed defense.

This, of course, is meaningless to most European fans who already know, but those are not the people he is concerned about. He has always said he only rides for those who believe in him and they are by far to be found in his native US soil, as well as perhaps other "non-initiated" regions of innocence. Ironically, it is from his same homeland that the greatest threat to his persona has also come forth in the feds. Whereas, till now at least, the traditional cycling world has only ever made the most feeble attempts at bringing him to task, such as at the Tour because one doesn't shoot oneself in the foot. It's not really good business practice.

I think the media plays into this very strongly, because whereas it thrives on sports like soccer, football, baseball, basketball etc., and consequently trys not to spit too heavily on the plate from which it eats; in regards to cycling the journalism has perhaps profited even more form attacking the two-wheeled sport with sensational articles of doping scandals and all the rest than in leaving it unassailed. Armstrong probably knows this better than most. This was the message his "keep everything within/don't tell" rational at any rate communicated to me. He seems to be interested in having the sport perceived by the media first and foremost differently than it has been of late, ironically not least owing to his own problematical dilemma. Certainly having more myth believers and less informed fans is better, as it has always been, to sustaining his career.

The US media especially had always, till now, treated him with obsequious deference, but is even among the most loyal pundits beginning to loose faith. Perhaps I'm speaking utter nonsense, however, Lance seems quite worried about how the sport is generally looked upon as a reflection of his own declining public image.

I think Lance pulls the line of most Euro pros in every way. I am not the rider you are but I respect your point. Most savy ex-riders know the game and Lance knows the game. I tease the wonkey weeney fan-boys who do not understand cycling.

Cycling at top level is an excruciating excercise in a repetitve painful discipline. Great riders are born with talent. Something in their upbringing upwells a spring of power and motivation in them to excell at the highest level.

The doping is only a small part of their talent. If those fan-boys out there in the cyclingnews blogosphere do not understand what I say, hook an SRM powermeter on your bikes. Do the actual rides these pros do, check your times , power outages,VO2 whatever.

I am afraid you will sadly be lacking. How can you then talk knowingly about doping in cycling?

 

[D-Queued]

... If those fan-boys out there in the cyclingnews blogosphere do not understand what I say, hook an SRM powermeter on your bikes. Do the actual rides these pros do, check your times , power outages,VO2 whatever.

I am afraid you will sadly be lacking. How can you then talk knowingly about doping in cycling?

Sure, but can they do this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wME5NTriTco&feature=related

'cuz I can (and have the dings in the car to show for it).

Dave.

 

[runninboy]

Sorry, you are on the wrong path there.

I don't know any of those stories about US sport. The only scandal I know of in the last few weeks is the FIFA selection of locations for the world cup.


Its not that I know about all this stuff in cycling because I care, its that if you walk up to a non-cyclist in the street and ask them what they know about the sport they will only be able to come up with negative stories (once you ignore the Lance TdF stuff).

OK you have just proved my point, you dont know any of the scandals in US sport. But people who follow those sports do.

And then you try to tell me that you know all these things about cycling because you interview a non cyclist on the street and that is what they tell you. How do you have enough interest to be an administrator here?
that is a bit of a stretch
but then claiming the code of silence was really only referring to the "business" side of cycling and not drugs was also a stretch of logic. I mean no one ever under investigation would dare speak cryptically, it would not be possible for someone like a Patron or Godfather to make the point to people who might implicate them in said investigation that they should remain silent.
"Never go against the family"
those were not his words but that is the message i heard.
and remember in the heat of the moment that is the same message he sent through the press to Simeoni.
paraphrasing
"He craps on the sport that gave him a living"
Martin you really believe there was no underlying message in his silence advice? Is silence on race radios important? We explore topics like that every day in other sport here in the US.
If you were not myopic you would go beyond your immediate circle of experience to see the commonality in all sports. Negativity is rampant, it is not the exclusive domain of cycling. You think it is, go to yahoo, click on sports click on NBA and see the team that has to ban gambling on its team flights because sometimes grown men threaten and assault each other. Some pull guns too. As an administrator i would expect you to have broader perspective when you comment.

 

[Martin318is]

OK you have just proved my point, you dont know any of the scandals in US sport. But people who follow those sports do.

actually, that proves MY point. If it were like cycling, in a foreign country I would know about the Superbowl and every bad story in NFL.

And then you try to tell me that you know all these things about cycling because you interview a non cyclist on the street and that is what they tell you. How do you have enough interest to be an administrator here?
that is a bit of a stretch

and now you have convinced me that you are just trolling. I didn't say that at all and you know that. I said that the problem with cycling is that the average non-cyclist in the street knows these stories about cycling because that is about all that is published. there is a key logical difference between that and the absurd words you are attempting to put in my mouth.

but then claiming the code of silence was really only referring to the "business" side of cycling and not drugs was also a stretch of logic. I mean no one ever under investigation would dare speak cryptically, it would not be possible for someone like a Patron or Godfather to make the point to people who might implicate them in said investigation that they should remain silent.

the stretch is being made by you - which is easier to accept? that he was talking about two topics seperately, or that there was an underlying motive in what he said like some sort of gansta movie? Yes we all know that he has made such comments in the past, but I ask you this - when has Lance ever been cryptic in his stupid comments in the press? He is too arrogant to bother doing so. You even went to the extent of bringing Simeoni into this - classic example of Lance deomnstrating the kind of restraint you are awarding him with here. Dont make me laugh.

If you were not myopic you would go beyond your immediate circle of experience to see the commonality in all sports. Negativity is rampant, it is not the exclusive domain of cycling. You think it is, go to yahoo, click on sports click on NBA and see the team that has to ban gambling on its team flights because sometimes grown men threaten and assault each other. Some pull guns too. As an administrator i would expect you to have broader perspective when you comment.

and see my earlier comment about you just trying to troll me. I have clearly answered your attempts at points quite simply twice now. Including your weird attempts to treat me as though I am a pro Lance fanboy. The fact you call me an Administrator like it means something, makes it clear that you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Velocentric]

The doping is only a small part of their talent. If those fan-boys out there in the cyclingnews blogosphere do not understand what I say, hook an SRM powermeter on your bikes. Do the actual rides these pros do, check your times , power outages,VO2 whatever.

I am afraid you will sadly be lacking. How can you then talk knowingly about doping in cycling?

Hang on, is the point you're trying to make here that unless we can ride like the Pros we can't understand the reasons behind doping?

 

[rhubroma]

The doping is only a small part of their talent. If those fan-boys out there in the cyclingnews blogosphere do not understand what I say, hook an SRM powermeter on your bikes. Do the actual rides these pros do, check your times , power outages,VO2 whatever.

I am afraid you will sadly be lacking. How can you then talk knowingly about doping in cycling?

This last bit is incoherent to me.

Surly the ones that make the pro ranks could not have relied exclusively upon doping to get there. Without raw talent, no amount of doping can transform a donkey into a race horse as the Italians say (un asino non si diventa mai un cavalo da corsa).

Though this isn't the issue. The issue has to do with how many riders of talent didn't have sucessful careers, because (partly or totally) they were not so unscrupulous as to dope. And it is therefore one of transparency.

It is wishfull thinking, I know, to expect that pro-sport will one day become totally transparent. However between this extream and that of unwaiveringly supporting the omertà, I would hope that a middle ground can publicly be achieved, which automatically eliminates anyone from in our case cycling who even remotely toes the line Armstrong is fabricating. Or what his career has represented.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Meanwhile, back to the race...

Since I have not looked much into the route does it have some of the Coors Classic routes involved? That would be great.

My understanding is that they are definitely going to try to bring back some of the stages used in the Coors' Classic. The Tour of the Moon won't be easy, as even back 20+ years ago the USFS and NPS were complaining about logistics. And Morgul-Bismarck has been named as well, even though a good half of the course is developed well beyond what it was like all those years ago.

Let's just hope organizers are wise enough to cut the chain to the anchor that may soon be Armstrong and let the race sail on it's own into the future, unlike that silly organization down under that continues to pay him an absurd amount of money to just show up. If I were an organizer of this new Quiznos race I would consider coughing up the money to fly LeMond, plus as many members of the old 7-11 team in as possible for the honorary send-off.

 

[rhubroma]

I disagree with the concept that cycling airs its dirty laundry in public whereas other sports get a pass.
The problem is perspective, here we read everything about cycling and digest & regurgitate it amongst our little circle. However generally i would believe that most of us do not do that with other sports.
NBA Memphis Grizzlies just had a fight on their charter plane over a card game. Then it was mentioned this is the same game that caused another fight on another team. Then multiple reports on how it all went down from people on the inside etc etc etc
Same day multiple reports on Coach vs Player shouting match on the current world champion. Then goes on to document the players previous troubles involving brandishing guns in the locker room etc etc.
Controversy as to why the marquee players do not participate in the Slam Dunk contest at the All Star game.
A team owner who is experiencing a rash of racial lawsuits
League contraction being discussed, Labor issues ETC ETC ETC
that is just a small slice of the NBA lately
Football has tons of controversy beyond drugs
Brett Favre sexual harrassment, actually many different sexual harrasment issues Erin Andrews, the Jets, God is everyone in the NFL a sexual deviant?. Coaches tripping opposing players, supposedly coaches ordering players to do the same on more than one team,
Reggie Bush losing a heisman trophy. first time the award was ever taken back. his school now being sanctioned. The current Heisman winner under a similar cloud.
Conference realignment, the BCS, an alternative to the BCS being proposed by an NBA owner,
are these not issues not unlike Pegasus racing & race radios?
I now know the intricacies of a baseball team owners finances, his charity, how he paid team executives through the charity and not their actual job. Who his wife was doing, how much she paid the guy, what his real job was supposed to be, the money that was supposed to be spent on player salary that was diverted to personal accounts of the owner while raising ticket prices. The name of the locker room attendant who used to take deliveries of the drugs for the players. The thank you notes from the players to the drug dealer. I know Roger Clemens got a big old boil on his backside cause he didnt know how to shoot up his illegal drugs that he never took. I know a guy on the hall of fame ballot no longer playing who couldnt hit a home run attributing his instantaneous transformation to a power hitter not to the prevalent drugs of the time but to eating"30 pounds of meat a day" WTF????

Why do i need to know that an NBA owner is being sued by tenants in his properties. Does that make him a slumlord or a racist? How does that affect him financially, how does he choose his coaches and does he really look at his players as slaves and his coaches as white slave drivers as has been alleged? Why does ancient Jerry Buss fill his owners suit with different busty 20 year old strippers every game?
The only thing missing from Pro Sports is the Kardashians, wait too late, one married a NBA player and both of them will have their own reality show. Should i care that Lamar Odom cant swim but he promised his grandmother he would learn?
Should i care how large his appendages are?
these are all things in the "news" that we complain puts cycling in a bad light.
Does Kim Kardashian only date black football players? Is she racist or just got a big booty? How long until she goes after ex Playmate Kendra's wide receiver husband or his he too white for her?

To Martin & others , you are most certainly wrong if you believe that cycling airs more non doping problems than other sports. I believe it is just your myopic perspective and your willingness to devour all of cycling's minutiae and your reluctance to do the same with other sports.

Yes, but surly runninboy, the bill or indictment against cycling is far more threatening and grave than against the other sports you mentioned.

You seem to be confusing the type of sensational scandal reports of these sports' "bad apples" and embarrassing episodes a là tabloid journalism, with a coordinated effort in the mass media to brand cycling a "dopers" sport as a kind of class action suit against it.

I don't see this coming out of the journalistic plaudits of say NFL football to nearly such a degree. And while this may indeed be the fault of cycling, it can not be said that this is to the credit of the other sports for apparently holding a "clean(ish) bill." Obviously this is utter nonsense. The only thing cyclists are right about in their often pathetic claims of self-defense, is in asking the question as to why the other sports don't have drug testing programs of nearly the severity as theirs. For example soccer (or football, however you wish to call it) does not even have blood testing.

In other words all the issues you present are merely tangential or institutional (in the structural sense), whereas with cycling it would seem to be condemnation of a praxis and way tout court. Plus all the media attention sells. Nothing better than a controversy sells, or just cause a scandal and you will surly become famous.

PS. And I'll wager that money plays a big part in this.

 

[The Hitch]

Sorry, you are on the wrong path there. I am not being Myopic at all (well I am but that is an eye condition I deal with).

I don't know any of those stories about US sport. The only scandal I know of in the last few weeks is the FIFA selection of locations for the world cup. I do however end up hearing stories about NBA teams helping local schools etc.

One point that should be made is that these other sports often hide behind the other problems to defend from doping.

How many times have i heard, even on this forum, "there is no doping in football because the big problem in football is match fixing".

Said with a straight face and without realising what a stupid point one is making.

 

[flicker]

Hang on, is the point you're trying to make here that unless we can ride like the Pros we can't understand the reasons behind doping?

I get my info straight from the Coni/Campagnolo book. Also from the book Eddy Merckx by Rik Vanwalleghem.

In the Merckx book Eddy himself says you cannot turn a donkey into a racehorse wjth dope.

I do believe natural talent trumps dope any day.

I admit I do not understand why anyone would want to taint their organisim with steroids. Steroids are how cyclists gain unnatural power?

So I cut some slack for the pros using PEDs. That is just my understanding of pro racing. Not that I think it is right but as others have written it is a long hard road.

I would like to know how these guys can train without burning out or getting sick. Is it because they have an inherant understanding of their own phisiology?

I am looking forward to the Colorado Classic Mountain stage race sponsored by Quizanos. A good exprience for the US pros.