Sadly people sports isn't simply a black vs white thing any more. It's not all just about the competition. There are often other factors involved.
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The "Astana's tactics" thing in the title sure fooled me.whittashau said:We're not talking tactics.
whittashau said:hrotha said:You don't see- How about the part where they could have won the Giro if they had actually raced for that goal?Billie said:They got the stage win and 2 and 3 in GC so I don't see what was wrong with their tactics.
We're not talking tactics. We're talking about a choice between them backing their "future" in his home tour, or backing a guy who is leaving.
If winning the Giro at all costs was their priority I'm sure they would have switched tactics, but I really think their main priority was simply was for them to get Aru as much limelight as possible
I agree partially with you. But I cannot blame Astana 100%, similar to Sky in Vuelta 2011, when you have a new comer out of nowhere climbing like a goat. You just don't know if that rider will have the consistency and capacity to hold it for 3 weeks. So usually teams hesitate a little and screw up and go or put all the eggs in the known commodity. In this case for Aru, who was Italian, so it made the decision easier.hrotha said:You don't see- How about the part where they could have won the Giro if they had actually raced for that goal?Billie said:They got the stage win and 2 and 3 in GC so I don't see what was wrong with their tactics.
You are right. We know that after the fact. I would have pulled Landa before. Surely they both would have taken more time on Contador (just because of the nature of the last climb) than Landa pulling alone and Aru pulling alone as well. They tried to get Kangert to help Aru but he couldn't bridge the gap. It would have been funny to see the two Astanas pulling separately and failing both. Not sure that would have been the right move. Again, Astana was not expecting Contador to crack and caught them off guard a little bit.Mr.White said:Today was not Ok! You don't pull the strongest rider in the race, who is in the lead 40 seconds and 1.30 on the race leader, BACK. And for the rider who is weaker than him, just to secure 2nd overall for him cause he is Italian for god's sake! Yeah, they got the stage win, but they would got it with Landa also. Injustice of the highest caliber to Landa. He should leave the team as soon as he can
staubsauger said:Maybe it has pretty much to do with the loyalty Aru showed by prolonging his contract at Astana? Now Martinelli rewards his loyalty.
That would actual make sense and be legitimate!
The Hitch said:Didn't see the stage, but from what I have read they decided to bring back Landa so that Aru could win the stage? Bet rigging maybe.
Escarabajo said:I agree partially with you. But I cannot blame Astana 100%, similar to Sky in Vuelta 2011, when you have a new comer out of nowhere climbing like a goat. You just don't know if that rider will have the consistency and capacity to hold it for 3 weeks. So usually teams hesitate a little and screw up and go or put all the eggs in the known commodity. In this case for Aru, who was Italian, so it made the decision easier.hrotha said:You don't see- How about the part where they could have won the Giro if they had actually raced for that goal?Billie said:They got the stage win and 2 and 3 in GC so I don't see what was wrong with their tactics.
As for today I don't think they believed that Contador was going to crack so it kind of surprised them a little. Besides the time gap between Contador and the 2 Astanas was too much and they didn't believe that they were going to cut it. So today was actually Ok. The main mistake was not changing the leader of the team earlier in the race.
Even if they had done that, there was no warranty that they were going to win. Mechanics of the race would have changed for sure.
hrotha said:You don't see- How about the part where they could have won the Giro if they had actually raced for that goal?Billie said:They got the stage win and 2 and 3 in GC so I don't see what was wrong with their tactics.
Landa had over 50' on Aru group and 1,41' on Contador and Landa didn't even ride full gass on the flat before Sestriere. If Landa had ridden full gas all the way he might have won the Giro.Billie said:hrotha said:You don't see- How about the part where they could have won the Giro if they had actually raced for that goal?Billie said:They got the stage win and 2 and 3 in GC so I don't see what was wrong with their tactics.
They actually tried. Aru group was 40 seconds behind Landa so they were at about the same time in front of Contador in provisional GC. Was always smarter to work together like they did today then have both try for it apart.
Was impossible to take back those 5 minutes on contador on sestriere anyway.
Basically this. Though I suspect that Martinelli concluded after 10 racing days that they were racing for podium as Berti seemed untouchable, so his tactics kinda made sense. They got 2/3 and team classification on top of their stage wins.hrotha said:Escarabajo, I don't have a problem with Astana backing Aru ahead of Landa. I'd have done the same.
What I'm saying is they should have used Landa, as their 2nd card, to put pressure on Contador and tire him out for Aru to take advantage of. Like the day of Madonna di Campiglio, when they managed to isolate Contador and they decided to just domestique for him instead of sending Landa up the road. They didn't try to get people in the breaks to act as bridges either.
Simply put, they didn't try team tactics despite having the strongest team and despite their rival being mostly on his own.
Roude Leiw said:Basically this. Though I suspect that Martinelli concluded after 10 racing days that they were racing for podium as Berti seemed untouchable, so his tactics kinda made sense. They got 2/3 and team classification on top of their stage wins.hrotha said:Escarabajo, I don't have a problem with Astana backing Aru ahead of Landa. I'd have done the same.
What I'm saying is they should have used Landa, as their 2nd card, to put pressure on Contador and tire him out for Aru to take advantage of. Like the day of Madonna di Campiglio, when they managed to isolate Contador and they decided to just domestique for him instead of sending Landa up the road. They didn't try to get people in the breaks to act as bridges either.
Simply put, they didn't try team tactics despite having the strongest team and despite their rival being mostly on his own.