astarloza-blames-positive-on-training-session

[DonTickles]

Current EPOs are not synthetic in the chemical sense, they are recombinant and purified from cultures of cells overproducing the protein. The basic protein structure is easy to control in this system and essentially all of the EPOs are identical in this sense. It is just that the cells also modify the protein by adding various sugar structures to it, this process is very difficult to control as we don't really understand it yet. Depending on the cell type (not just species bu tissue too) used to produce the EPO this will affect the sugar structures.

Even producing EPO using human cells (DynEPO, or others) versus the hamster origin cells (CHO) used for other EPOs still doesn't give you and endogenous like protein from a detection point of view although they all work biologically OK.

I guess that answers my question asking if it would be easy or not. Talking about attached sugars determining the acidity of the EPO and the test looking at the acidity of the EPO in the urine made me think it might be fairly easy. Like adding different sugar sources to brew different types of alcoholic beverages (ie mead vs beer). But I guess not.

I performed a patent search and found several patents from the 80's and 90's describing processes of purifying EPO out of human urine, especially out of anemic people where the concentration of EPO in the urine is greater. Seems like that might look like your own EPO on a test (unless the purifying process changes the pH) and someone may be able to reproduce this manner of EPO production on a small scale specifically for athletes.

So count me in for the earlier plan of setting up shop in Girona. I'm not a chemist, or a doctor, or experienced setting up shady businesses, or have any connections in pro cycling, or speak the language, or... but damnit I can collect lots of human urine!

 

[Cobblestones]

I guess that answers my question asking if it would be easy or not. Talking about attached sugars determining the acidity of the EPO and the test looking at the acidity of the EPO in the urine made me think it might be fairly easy. Like adding different sugar sources to brew different types of alcoholic beverages (ie mead vs beer). But I guess not.

I performed a patent search and found several patents from the 80's and 90's describing processes of purifying EPO out of human urine, especially out of anemic people where the concentration of EPO in the urine is greater. Seems like that might look like your own EPO on a test (unless the purifying process changes the pH) and someone may be able to reproduce this manner of EPO production on a small scale specifically for athletes.

So count me in for the earlier plan of setting up shop in Girona. I'm not a chemist, or a doctor, or experienced setting up shady businesses, or have any connections in pro cycling, or speak the language, or... but damnit I can collect lots of human urine!

Ok, looks like we have a business model. Who's doing the market research? Then we need someone to get a credit from a bank (should be easy, maybe we can get stimulus money) and we're in busine$$.

 

[dopingectomy]

What international standard for testing are you referring to? Testing of what exactly? I don't see how would it differ from testing standards related to regular biochemical assay techniques such as ELISA or HPLC.

thus how do you set up internal and external quality control systems with the CO rebreathing method?

Also, its hard to compare the exposure level to those recommendations in the OSHA document because they refer to 8hr averages, whereas the CO rebreathing method only lasts for 2mins.

wrong. The ceiling limit is 200ppm. Although this limit is broken a few seconds only, it is broken.

At this dose, the HbCO does not go above 6-7%

the NIOSH limit is 5% HbCO.

so the dose is roughly equivalent to smoking approx. 1-2 cigarettes.

smoking kills:
http://velibahceci.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/smoking-kills.jpg

don't get me wrong, I really think that the mass of hemoglobin is an excellent parameter, we simply do not have the technology today to measure it safely.

 

[Cobblestones]

The CO dose is 1 ml/kg BW.

I just noticed that. So, just for cross-referencing with the other thread, let me calculate the amount of CO in g per kg body weight.

I assume that the 1 ml is at standard temperature and pressure, so I apply the law for ideal gases p*V=n*R*T, and I use
p=1.01325E5 Pa,
V=1 ml/kg BW=1E-6 m^3/kg BW,
R=8.314510 J/(K*mol)
T=273.15 K
so I get
n=4.46E-5 mol/kg BW
Now I multiply with the molar volume of CO, which is 28 g/mol, and I get the required amount of CO per kg body weight as:
1.25 mg/kg BW

Now, a typical rider of maybe 70 kg weight, the amount of CO is about 87 mg, which would correspond to the amount of CO contained in the smoke of ~5 cigarettes. It's not small, but hardly near any dangerous conditions. Still, beyond several occupational hazard limits. Now, one should remember that OSHA limits are so low, because they are for repeated exposure, year after year after year. Not for a 2 min test which might be applied, say, 5-10 times per year. (I know, I know, they also have ceiling limits, but again, you have to remember that it's basically for workers who might work for years on end in the same job and get many repeated exposures to that stuff.) Anyway, another thing which should be clear is that this amount of CO, dissolved in water (or maybe saline) and given by IV, would require the injection of about 4-5 liter of water!! So, not possible. It has to be given by breathing in, I guess.

 

[Cobber]

thus how do you set up internal and external quality control systems with the CO rebreathing method?



wrong. The ceiling limit is 200ppm. Although this limit is broken a few seconds only, it is broken.



the NIOSH limit is 5% HbCO.



smoking kills:
http://velibahceci.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/smoking-kills.jpg

don't get me wrong, I really think that the mass of hemoglobin is an excellent parameter, we simply do not have the technology today to measure it safely.

Yes, but not because of CO poisoning. Otherwise, anyone who smokes a couple of cigarettes in quick succession would be dead!

 

[Sheltowee]

Astraloza should admit to doping, serve his ban and try to return in two years. This is a silly defense he's attempting, and he's going to appear as stupid as Hamilton and Landis if he continues with thsi crap.

 

[DAOTEC]

Monday, May 17, 2010

Euskatel-Euskadi support Astarloza following UCI sanction

"Following confirmation by the Spanish Cycling Federation of the positive control of the rider Mikel Astarloza, the team wants to specify that it will comply with UCI regulations that have been determined for these cases to incur the penalty," the team told Biciciclismo.

"This decision is not final, the rider has a long defense ahead of him, and we hope that his lawyer can prove his innocence," they continued.

Regardless of whether Astarloza can prove his innocence, the team said they will welcome him back with open arms:

VN: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4203/Euskatel-Euskadi-support-Astarloza-following-UCI-sanction.aspx

More and More legal procedings ... mounting $$$ trouble for the UCI ?

 

[poupou]

More and More legal procedings ... mounting $$$ trouble for the UCI ?

UCI should have congratulated Patrice CLERC for banning suspicious teams by not inviting them... no need of an expensive procedure to push dopers at home.

 

[luckyboy]

What defense is there for synthetic EPO?

 

[DAOTEC]

What defense is there for synthetic ... ?

ask Flandis