At what point does placing in a GT become irrelevant?

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Jul 19, 2009
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Ryo Hazuki said:
no I wouldn't. when have you heard me about henao's 9th place last year, only about him doing well in a first gt. but result wise anything but podium is not worth mentioning. if a rider is young or a first gt then it's great indication and only idiot riders care who lack any mentality to win races.
Again, the question isn't about what we the spectators feel is irrelevant because our particular sentiment about it is something that most definitely IS irrelevant. Pro teams do not sit around and say "oh lets not contest 4th place, because Contador fans don't care about it".

The term relevance here refers to whether it is relevant to the riders and teams, NOT the spectators.

At some point though, even young riders in their first GT stop actively contesting GC position. Where do you think that generally occurs? It sure as heck isn't around 10th. Different classes of rider obviously stop contesting at different stages. Contador continued to contest his position in 2011 even when he was in 5th and had absolutely no hope of winning, but in 2010 once Cadel dropped to about 8th or 9th he clearly eased off and ended up 34th or whatever. It actually would have more to do with the time gap however, than the actual GC placing. If only 20 sec separated the top 40, I reckon you can bet your life that the top 40 will all contest GC place.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Ryo Hazuki said:
it's always been that way. I hate it when people have no clue about history. back with worldcups and trade teams and old uci rankings you got even less points for stage wins in gt's and nobody complained :rolleyes:

you are correct though, a stage win in a gt is more important than anything but top 3
How often do you see riders capable of making the top 10 but NOT the podium, whom eventually work hard and get themselves into the top 10, suddenly stop defending their position, drop back by 25mins across a stage or two, then jump into breakaways thereafter? Pretty much never.

Caruut's answer is a good one. It depends also on the stage of the race. If you get yourself into the top 10 late in the race, you sure as heck are not going to sacrifice that to see if you can grab a stage win. So in that case top 10 is more prestigious than a stage win.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Krebs cycle said:
How often do you see riders capable of making the top 10 but NOT the podium, whom eventually work hard and get themselves into the top 10, suddenly stop defending their position, drop back by 15mins on a single stage, then jump into breakaways thereafter? Pretty much never.

Caruut's answer is a good one. It depends also on the stage of the race. If you get yourself into the top 10 late in the race, you sure as heck are not going to sacrifice that to see if you can grab a stage win. So in that case top 10 is more prestigious than a stage win.
yes and that's why they are idiots who nobody remembers in 10 years time. does anyone still remember someone like valjavec? voeckler will be remembered for decades
 
Nov 29, 2010
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Ryo Hazuki said:
yes and that's why they are idiots who nobody remembers in 10 years time. does anyone still remember someone like valjavec? voeckler will be remembered for decades
I expect Voeckler will be remembered for his incredible defense of the yellow jersey in 2004 holding on to it for 10 days thanks to some courageous riding. He'll also be remembered for his even more impressive riding in 2011 matching the top climbers in the pyrenees and a substantial amount of the alpes that saw him hold yellow for another 10 days. Then there's the riding that got him the mountains jersey in 2012.

I'll remember him for those things and not because he won a stage into Perpignan or wherever they were ...

Voeckler doesn't prove your point.

And why say Valjavec when you can say Gesink, VDB2, Mancebo ?
 
Mar 31, 2010
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deValtos said:
I expect Voeckler will be remembered for his incredible defense of the yellow jersey in 2004 holding on to it for 10 days thanks to some courageous riding. He'll also be remembered for his even more impressive riding in 2011 matching the top climbers in the pyrenees and a substantial amount of the alpes that saw him hold yellow for another 10 days. Then there's the riding that got him the mountains jersey in 2012.

I'll remember him for those things and not because he won a stage into Perpignan or wherever they were ...

Voeckler doesn't prove your point.

And why say Valjavec when you can say Gesink, VDB2, Mancebo ?
my whole point is that defending a stupid gc place is ridiculous when you can write history in the attack like many have done before and voeckler prooves that apart from winning stages heroic attacks or defenses(yellow jersey is of course also similar to a stage win, counts just as much) can make you a legend
 
hfer07 said:
After thinking a bit about this topic last night, Its irrelevant too for a GC rider to seek a top 10 spot & get unnoticed for the entire race, rather than having a rider like Voeckler winning two stages & the KOM jersey making top 30.

LuLu is another good example of that approach-he well knows he has to struggle throughout the entire race to attempt a meanless top 10 & be a ghost-not worthed at all-so he prefers to hunt for stage wins & get the reward of doing it.
At the same time, JVdB has set himself up quite well with his perennial just-off-the-podium placings and/or top 10's in grand tours without a stage win. His presence in among the elite in the mountains in the largely watched mountain stages of the grand tours and the Tour especially has made him a celebrity. If he had a stage win in each Tour as opposed to his top ten gc placings and his being seen by cycling fans climbing with the likes of Contador, Andy and Evans I don't believe he would have the same level of notoriety or prosperity.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Angliru said:
At the same time, JVdB has set himself up quite well with his perenial just-off-the-podium placings and/or top 10's in grand tours without a stage win. His presence in among the elite in the mountains in the largely watched mountain stages of the grand tours and the Tour especially has made him a celebrity. If he had a stage win in each Tour as opposed to his top ten gc placings and his being seen by cycling fans climbing with the likes of Contador, Andy and Evans I don't believe he would have the same level of notoriety or prosperity.
a celebrity?? lol maybe in belgium, but you think he comes anywhere close to boonen? besides all those things you described are meaningless. nobody remembers that in 10 years time
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
my whole point is that defending a stupid gc place is ridiculous when you can write history in the attack like many have done before and voeckler prooves that apart from winning stages heroic attacks or defenses(yellow jersey is of course also similar to a stage win, counts just as much) can make you a legend
Riders like LLS, Voeckler and Soler are exceptions. For every one these 3 there are 15 who inspite of their stage win are still fairly anonymous.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Ryo Hazuki said:
yes and that's why they are idiots who nobody remembers in 10 years time. does anyone still remember someone like valjavec? voeckler will be remembered for decades
Again, you are taking an egocentric view of the question.... ie: what the spectator thinks. In the present moment of a race, I doubt pro riders would spare a nanosecond of thought to who remembers them after they retire. They care more about their pro contracts, prize money, doing a job for their team. If the team thinks that fighting for 10th place is worth it, then that is what any given rider will do. That doesn't make them an idiot though.


Team tactics are not decided on whether or not it will "make them a legend in 10yrs time".
 
Jun 2, 2010
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As I understand the question, it is something you remember when rider's career is over.

For a World tour pro, top ten placings are worth mention. Anything below is not.
Well, unless it was special in some way - it was his first season or something like that.

Stage win is better then top ten except being on podium.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Angliru said:
Riders like LLS, Voeckler and Soler are exceptions. For every one these 3 there are 15 who inspite of their stage win are still fairly anonymous.
winning a mountainstage is almost never anonymous
 
Oct 30, 2011
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In terms of prestige, I agree with that. However, it's about targeting what you can realistically achieve. Like I said earlier, when you have a very good chance of doing one, but a relatively low chance of doing the other, you have to weigh up the expected prestige of what you're going to do.

Many cycling fans would think that winning the Tour de France > winning Paris - Roubaix. That does not mean Tom Boonen should build his season around trying to win a TdF GC. He should still target Paris - Roubaix, because he is comparatively likely to win that, and hence the expected prestige is higher. Riders should attempt to maximise their expected prestige.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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Krebs cycle said:
I realize there is no black and white answer because it depends on team strategy, but I'm interested to know people's thoughts on using placing in a GT as a measure of overall cycling performance
Normally I would say only 1st matters, but in cycling at least by making the podium you have the chance of picking up the win in a couple of months or years.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Ryo Hazuki said:
it's always been that way. I hate it when people have no clue about history. back with worldcups and trade teams and old uci rankings you got even less points for stage wins in gt's and nobody complained :rolleyes:

you are correct though, a stage win in a gt is more important than anything but top 3
yeah but then someone like cav would get an insane amount of points, even with comparison to the winner. Pretty much impossible not to find flaws with a point system no matter what approach you take.
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
winning a mountainstage is almost never anonymous
Agreed. In the 07 Tour I can't remember where Soler finished on GC (15th?) but I sure do remember how he won his MTF and the KOM classification - by riding like a man possessed. That was a great tour from a relatively unknown rider from a smaller team.
 
Not sure how a stage win can generally rate higher than 4th or 5th overall in a GT. Sure it's prestigious, but why rate a rider so highly because he was allowed to ride away with two others due to the fact that he'd already lost over half an hour? He might end up outsprinting or outsmarting his break away 'mates', but how does that rate higher than someone who has to ride hard every day of the three weeks to maintain a relatively high overall placing?
 
I agree with gregrowlerson. A 4th, 5th and thereabout is more admireable than winning a stage; mostly because of the amount of work being put in over a couple of weeks rather than a single day. A great stage win or two can easily top being 8th or 9th of course.

But, though depending on rider and so, I would put the line at top-10... I think.
 
The Blues said:
I agree with gregrowlerson. A 4th, 5th and thereabout is more admireable than winning a stage; mostly because of the amount of work being put in over a couple of weeks rather than a single day. A great stage win or two can easily top being 8th or 9th of course.

But, though depending on rider and so, I would put the line at top-10... I think.
I always look at time, not placing.

Final GC 2012 Vuelta
1 CONTADOR VELASCO, Alberto (SAXO BANK-TINKOFF BANK) 84:59:49
2 VALVERDE BELMONTE, Alejandro (MOVISTAR) + 1:16
3 RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Joaquin (KATUSHA) + 1:37
4 FROOME, Christopher (SKY PROCYCLING) + 10:16
5 MORENO FERNANDEZ, Daniel (KATUSHA) + 11:29
6 GESINK, Robert (RABOBANK) + 12:23
 
cineteq said:
I always look at time, not placing.

Final GC 2012 Vuelta
1 CONTADOR VELASCO, Alberto (SAXO BANK-TINKOFF BANK) 84:59:49
2 VALVERDE BELMONTE, Alejandro (MOVISTAR) + 1:16
3 RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Joaquin (KATUSHA) + 1:37
4 FROOME, Christopher (SKY PROCYCLING) + 10:16
5 MORENO FERNANDEZ, Daniel (KATUSHA) + 11:29
6 GESINK, Robert (RABOBANK) + 12:23
+1

Nobody will remember Moreno from the Vuelta.
Many will remember Menchov winning on Bola del Mondo.
 

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