Basso embarrasses Armstrong

[Race Radio]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...port-numbers-from-Giro-dItalia-published.aspx

La Gazzetta dello Sport published yesterday the results of three controls used for Basso's biological passport.

The first control was in Amsterdam, two days before the race started (43% hematocrit, 13.9g/dl haemoglobin), the second control was on the second rest day, between the stage to Monte Zoncolan and Plan de Coronas (40.9, 13.3) and the final control was in Verona on the morning of the last stage (38.7, 12.9).

Basso shows a 10% decrease in the last week while Armstrong shows a 10% increase. Rest day blood bags do wonders for old dudes.

 

[Publicus]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...port-numbers-from-Giro-dItalia-published.aspx

La Gazzetta dello Sport published yesterday the results of three controls used for Basso's biological passport.



Basso shows a 10% decrease in the last week while Armstrong shows a 10% increase. Rest day blood bags do wonders for old dudes.

If this has become accepted reality, then I suspect they will be all over Lance at the Tour looking for his re-up. And I only mention Lance because we know that his numbers went up last year versus going down. To the extent that this occurred with anyone else, then I expect they will get similar treatment.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

You have to admire the salad tossing speed BPC displays.

Basso is no stranger to doping, but I am utterly stunned that Armstrong would be stupid enough to expect anything less than derision at the blood numbers he posted at the Tour last year.

 

[Race Radio]

You're making a good news story about Basso into an Armstrong story? Somebody isn't a little bit upset today, are they?

Well it was a particularly tough Giro this year, so a drop is expected.

It does show that there is no reason to burn down the sport.

I titled the post the same as the title for the Cyclismag article. I linked the Velonation article as I assume most here do not speak French.

So last years Tour was easy?

Your trolling is so obvious. How many usernames are you up to now, has to be over 50.

 

[Race Radio]

There was mixed opinions about them.

The only mixed opinions were from people employed by Armstrong, who had different opinions when discussing similar jumps by Rassmusen.

 

[hfer07]

Well it was a particularly tough Giro this year, so a drop is expected.

Based on your rational, and since the Tour "in your expertise" was not that demanding everybody would think that the athlete in question would either have a slight drop or level in the Htc count.......... so could you explain to the world why LA's Htc values were UP instead?

thanks

 

[Race Radio]

No Cycling news reports a mix bag, with most people in the sport doubting the suggestion.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

Thank you for proving my point. The only people supporting Armstrong are those employed by him. The only other person in the article supporting Armstrong was misquoted and was only referring to his levels not breaking the 50% barrier, not the unexplained increase in the last week.

 

[Race Radio]

Toll babble

There is a 20% variance. You are saying the Tour is 20% easier? That Armstrong was so critically dehydrated the morning after the rest day that his Hct was 20% above where is should be?

 

[hrotha]

Back in the day, before blood testing was introduced, some riders were rumoured to have hematocrits as high as 60%. After the 50% hematocrit cap was introduced, but before EPO became detectable, I think (but I'm not sure, and I'm relying on vague memories more than anything) riders would consistently be at around 47-49% for the whole duration of a GT. Now it's not uncommon to see values below 41-42%, and Armstrong's suspect values ranged between 40 and 43% IIRC.

My question is, what are the benefits of EPO and of blood transfusions beyond rising the hematocrit levels? And how important is each extra 1% hematocrit? How much of an advantage would that refill have been for Armstrong?

I guess it all makes sense if one assumes the blood doping programs of the early and mid 90s relied on brute force to do what current programs do through finesse, but hey, I'm here to learn.

 

[hfer07]

There are natural reasons for the Hct to rise. Varying hydration levels are probably the most common, also the level of iron in the body (an iron injection might see a rise) and what stage someone is in the natural reticulocyte cycle has an effect.

Iron Injections? wow-that sounds very strange indeed....

http://www.anemia.org/patients/feature-articles/content.php?contentid=000403

Eligible for Iron Injections
Patients who are receiving erythropoiesis-stimulating agents (ESAs)
Patients in whom oral iron supplements were ineffective or not well-tolerated
Patients with significant blood loss

What troubles me the most is - how LA got dehydrated "during the rest days"?

thanks again

 

[Cobblestones]

To see those values published is very good for transparency. I would hope the same is done with all test results. Which reminds me: has anybody seen Pellizotti's values?

 

[Race Radio]

Back in the day, before blood testing was introduced, some riders were rumoured to have hematocrits as high as 60%. After the 50% hematocrit cap was introduced, but before EPO became detectable, I think (but I'm not sure, and I'm relying on vague memories more than anything) riders would consistently be at around 47-49% for the whole duration of a GT. Now it's not uncommon to see values below 41-42%, and Armstrong's suspect values ranged between 40 and 43% IIRC.

My question is, what are the benefits of EPO and of blood transfusions beyond rising the hematocrit levels? And how important is each extra 1% hematocrit? How much of an advantage would that refill have been for Armstrong?

I guess it all makes sense if one assumes the blood doping programs of the early and mid 90s relied on brute force to do what current programs do through finesse, but hey, I'm here to learn.

Don't forget Plasma expanders and saline bags. Keep the Testers waiting for 55 minutes and it is easy to bring your Hct down from 50

 

[Publicus]

Wasn't Dr Rasmus Damsgaard no longer employed by Armstrong by that stage? He is a man of integrity and has huge respect in the anti doping industry - he's not going to just lie for the sake of it.

Daamsgaard's company started working with the UCI this year, so both Radio Shack and Saxo Bank stopped workng with him to avoid a conflict of interest.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/saxo-bank-ends-independent-testing-programme

 

[hrotha]

Don't forget Plasma expanders and saline bags. Keep the Testers waiting for 55 minutes and it is easy to bring your Hct down from 50

So, basically, a dirty rider's actual hematocrit could be as high as ever throughout a race, and then brought down hurriedly to semi-normal levels before a "surprise" test? If so, could the same be done to produce figures as those seen in Basso's values?

 

[Race Radio]

He is a man of integrity and has huge respect in the anti doping industry - he's not going to just lie for the sake of it.

We all know you are just trolling, but even you know that Damgaard's impartiality has been often questioned by his peers. Even his employer and boss distanced themselves from him because of his repeated conflicts of interest.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/damsgaard-faces-criticism-over-anti-doping-programme


http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-independent-is-damsgaard_25.html

 

[Race Radio]

So, basically, a dirty rider's actual hematocrit could be as high as ever throughout a race, and then brought down hurriedly to semi-normal levels before a "surprise" test? If so, could the same be done to produce figures as those seen in Basso's values?

Yes. Especially if there is no blood testing after a stage and the Athlete can delay a test for 20 minutes.

 

[Race Radio]

Troll Babble

As I wrote previously he was only commenting that the level did not reach the amount that would trigger a rest, 50%.

You forget that Local cyclist wrote a three part series that showed that the most likely explanation was doping. The idea that a rider was so severely dehydrated that his Hct fluctuated 20% but then suddenly rode better then he had for the rest of the Tour, and the season for that matter, is absurd.....but you are a troll so this is expected.

 

[Race Radio]

When you say "we all know you are just trolling", do you mean that unless I agree with you that it's a 100% true that Armstrong blood doped

We know you are trolling because you have been banned for trolling over 50 times. You have a mental disorder, on this we can surely agree.

 

[hrotha]

Yes. Especially if there is no blood testing after a stage and the Athlete can delay a test for 20 minutes.

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Hillavoider]

As it is openly known and accepted that all the top gc riders dope. Basso must have doped perfectly to show a decrease. i think basso could be onto something. A new technique to bring down your readings perhaps without having to tell UCI testers to wait while he has a shower to do it.

 

[Race Radio]

What he did not tell you is there is no allegation that Armstrong delayed testers after a stage. The allegation is it was an early morning test before a big mountain stage. Astana were in fact tested more than other teams.

There is documented evidence that Armstrong delayed testers, the UCI and Armstrong admitted it. The test was requested at the correct time. It was not the only time the delayed the testers, also happened after the TTT for 45 minutes.

But you knew that

 

[Hillavoider]

just another thought on this, if we see all the known doping gc riders blood hct values starting high and falling slightly at the tour then its defenitely a new thing to do, as no one else now wants what LA has out there for the world to see

 

[Race Radio]

Unless I see some evidence I will doubt your other assertion.

Chaperon waiting outside Astana bus for 45 minutes. Documented by multiple journalists. No surprise as the Chaperon is an ex-Pro hired by the UCI.

 

[BroDeal]

Troll crap

Jeebus. Did the mods acidently give BPC a ban with an expiration?

 

[Tubeless]

Back in the day, before blood testing was introduced, some riders were rumoured to have hematocrits as high as 60%. After the 50% hematocrit cap was introduced, but before EPO became detectable, I think (but I'm not sure, and I'm relying on vague memories more than anything) riders would consistently be at around 47-49% for the whole duration of a GT. Now it's not uncommon to see values below 41-42%, and Armstrong's suspect values ranged between 40 and 43% IIRC.

My question is, what are the benefits of EPO and of blood transfusions beyond rising the hematocrit levels? And how important is each extra 1% hematocrit? How much of an advantage would that refill have been for Armstrong?

I guess it all makes sense if one assumes the blood doping programs of the early and mid 90s relied on brute force to do what current programs do through finesse, but hey, I'm here to learn.

It is the total Hb mass that matters. Hb and Hkr are relative figures - measured in grams per litre of blood or % of red blood cells in a sample. If given in proper dosages, blood transfusions and EPO micro-dosing help increase the total blood volume while keeping the Hb and HKr values steady - and hiding the peaks and valleys in body's own red blood cell production that the biological passport was designed to detect.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/biological-passport-expert-taking-landis-seriously

Here's an example. Say a cyclist has a total blood volume of 5 liters. HKr is 45% and Hb 15 grams / litre. He gets a 500 ml of stored blood transfused. Blood volume goes to 5.5 litres. If the concentration transfused is the same as his existing blood, Hkr stays at 45% and Hb stays at 15 g/l - but the total Hb mass increases from 5 * 15 g = 75 grams to 5.5 * 15 g = 82.5 grams. That's a 10% boost in blood's oxygen carrying capacity - same effect as increasing Hkr from 45% to 49.5%.

Even declining Hb and Hkr values aren't necessarily proof of being clean - you can manipulate the values on a daily basis by redrawing and transfusing blood. Or engineer a slight decline in Hkr and Hb values, while keeping the overall blood volume count high.

It's clear that the relative boost is less today than in the days of 60% Hkr, but it's obvious that the values and methods that aren't testable (overall blood volume & autologous transfusions) are still very much in use. Landis also revealed that you can boost your body's natural EPO levels 3x without testing positive in a morning test by micro-dosing EPO at night. So until the UCI testers have the go-ahead from Pat McQ to wake up the riders in the middle of the night for a blood test, this method too will go undetected.