Basso's self-published blood results

[drfunk000]

Any comments on Ivan Basso's 47.1 HCT? The text on the top appears to try to explain it away as a result of altitude training - but another test just 5 days later shows a 42.7 HCT.

 

[blackcat]

Any comments on Ivan Basso's 47.1 HCT? The text on the top appears to try to explain it away as a result of altitude training - but another test just 5 days later shows a 42.7 HCT.

I can explain it, he is not as careful as Wiggins, lol.

Doperz publishing blood numbers.

Remember Wiggins was singing like a canary at Moreni, and at Di Luca. Why not Armstrong? Why not Contador?

If he was truthful he would throw the book at Hayles too.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Appears to be in April, when he was doing sod all, bar a few warm ups.
At least he published it, without tippex.
That's better than Lance on Livestrong, where his HC level miraculously dropped from it's original figure.

 

[mektronic]

Compare with Armstrong's published values on livestrong.com. Orange are the original values, green are what they have been subsequently (and intermittently) altered to.

 

[mitochondrion]

high haematocrits prior to grand tours

Published Haematocrit results often seem to have high end of normal values 6-8 weeks prior to a grand tour.

Many riders often explain this as a result of high altitude training. I would contend that it is the result of microdosing EPO at altitude to mature RBCs prior to donation for autologous transfusion during the tour in question. Subsequent tests often show miraculous drops in haematocrit. The high result is then attributed to dehydration etc the day of the anomalous test / donation of blood.

The hired medical consultants know that use of EPO etc will result in a positive during the tour, but transfusion is undetectable at present.Transfusion is only needed 2 or 3 times a tour. A 'clean peloton' is the result.

 

[Anonymous]

Published Haematocrit results often seem to have high end of normal values 6-8 weeks prior to a grand tour.

Many riders often explain this as a result of high altitude training. I would contend that it is the result of microdosing EPO at altitude to mature RBCs prior to donation for autologous transfusion during the tour in question. Subsequent tests often show miraculous drops in haematocrit. The high result is then attributed to dehydration etc the day of the anomalous test / donation of blood.

The hired medical consultants know that use of EPO etc will result in a positive during the tour, but transfusion is undetectable at present.Transfusion is only needed 2 or 3 times a tour. A 'clean peloton' is the result.

At least in Pat McQuaid's mind....

 

[Digger]

Anyone got a VO2Max figure for Basso?

The tragedy of doping is that we don't know how genuinely talented these guys are.

 

[Izoard]

I can explain it, he is not as careful as Wiggins, lol.

Doperz publishing blood numbers.

Remember Wiggins was singing like a canary at Moreni, and at Di Luca. Why not Armstrong? Why not Contador?

If he was truthful he would throw the book at Hayles too.

You reallllllly don't like Wiggins

 

[Escarabajo]

Where are the doctors when you need them the most?

 

[luckyboy]

Apologies for the ooold thread revival.

Anyone got a VO2Max figure for Basso?

His VO2 Max taken on 27/11/08 "performed in an un‐optimal circumstance" was 78.9 mL/kg/min. The report says that the optimal value divided by his optimal body weight would be 86 mL/kg/min.

An unscheduled VO2 Max test on 05/11/08 gave 83.5 mL/kg/min


Continuing from the BMC Frei positive thread..

Here are Basso's Hb & HCT results from mid-08 to end-09.

His crit spikes in April 09 (when he won Trentino - does seem he was altitude training just before then though) and again in September. Does seem to drop around Giro though. The dates are quite vague in this table though.

The full tables of his blood values are here.
These include:
RBC count (10^6/ul): over 5.4 is high, under 4 is low.
Haematocrit (%)
Haemoglobin (g/dL)
MCHC [Mean Corpuscular Haemoglobin Concentration] (g/dL): 31-36 is the normal adult range
MVC/MCV [Mean Corpuscular Volume] (fl): normal adult range is 80-100
Reticulocytes (%)

I've never seen a thread on here talking about Basso's values from that website. Can't find any either

Edit: More detailed numbers for 09

 

[luckyboy]

Well done

so basically all his markers look pretty normal, although you could prob argue that some of them vary quite a lot in short timeframes, which could then be explained by level of hydration and calibration I guess.

The only one making me think is the reticulocytes. Is that low or normal??

Sometimes off-topic is nice!

Here's a more detailed chart of his retics for most of 09..

It's all within the normal range, but it fluctuates quite a bit. No figures for the off-season which isn't great.
Maybe someone else can talk about it in more detail.


Had a look at his .srm files for Stage 16 of the Giro 09 to Monte Petrano, and Stage 13 of the 09 Vuelta to Sierra Nevada. These don't make much sense unless there's something to compare them to (Moncoutie on Sierra Nevada for instance)..

 

[wattage]

Whats up with Basso's body weight in those tests, 69 kg on 5/11/08 and 75kg on 28/11/08. He gained 6 kilos in during november? no way..

 

[BroDeal]

It is interesting that his retics never get as high or as low as Armstrong's.

 

[luckyboy]

Yeah, around Giro/Vuelta time, they're hitting around the 1.0 mark. Lance's were never above 0.7 (freq. 0.5) for the whole of the Tour.

He probably has to be more careful though.

 

[Escarabajo]

Retycs shooting up in the offseason? Maybe making donations to the Red Cross.

 

[GreggGermer]

While a spike in Hematocrit can be explained by the altitude, the quick recess over a few days seems be strange. I've seen a spiked increase in my hematocrit after altitude (a peak of 49.7% after living at altitude, my baseline is in the 44 to 46% range).

Long before it was the "in thing" I published my blood results on my personal website. I just did it as additional information to the power files I was publishing at the time. I've long since been retired from racing, but the files are still up on the internet.

http://www.gregggermer.com/power/Blood_Test_web.pdf

Even from my results you would think them suspect at times (the high hematocrit levels after altitude), but it was all natural with no "extra" boosts to my blood levels.

 

[Escarabajo]

While a spike in Hematocrit can be explained by the altitude, the quick recess over a few days seems be strange. I've seen a spiked increase in my hematocrit after altitude (a peak of 49.7% after living at altitude, my baseline is in the 44 to 46% range).

Long before it was the "in thing" I published my blood results on my personal website. I just did it as additional information to the power files I was publishing at the time. I've long since been retired from racing, but the files are still up on the internet.

http://www.gregggermer.com/power/Blood_Test_web.pdf

Even from my results you would think them suspect at times (the high hematocrit levels after altitude), but it was all natural with no "extra" boosts to my blood levels.

Thanks. I noticed your Reticulocytes taking a dip at the same time that your hematocrit goes up. I wonder what the off-score for this would be?

 

[BroDeal]

When I look at these graphs I become more convinced that the passport is a fraud. The testing is so irregular that it would be difficult to determine trends or what a "normal" value should be.

When Slipstream was originally set up, the goal was to test the riders once a week. I think because of cost issues that was changed to every two weeks. That sort of testing schedule would give some nice data. Most of Basso's values are from competition when he would be most likely to be manipulating his blood.

 

[Kerbdog]

The tragedy of doping is that we dont know how genuinely talented these guys are.

And the tragedy of modern cycling is that we have no real way to prove if someones clean.

 

[ChrisE]

While a spike in Hematocrit can be explained by the altitude, the quick recess over a few days seems be strange. I've seen a spiked increase in my hematocrit after altitude (a peak of 49.7% after living at altitude, my baseline is in the 44 to 46% range).

Long before it was the "in thing" I published my blood results on my personal website. I just did it as additional information to the power files I was publishing at the time. I've long since been retired from racing, but the files are still up on the internet.

http://www.gregggermer.com/power/Blood_Test_web.pdf

Even from my results you would think them suspect at times (the high hematocrit levels after altitude), but it was all natural with no "extra" boosts to my blood levels.

Who do you think you are? You must take us for fools.

We will decide if your results are normal or not.

 

[Mambo95]

Out of interest what formal qualifications/training do you posters have in the field of haematology (or medicine generally)?

This isn't criticism. It would just be good to know the level of a poster's expertise when considering their opinions. Obviously I would value the opinions of anyone who has a background in the field.

 

[luckyboy]

I think ChrisE was joking then tbh.

One or two posters have qualifications in haematology I think. Or at least some sort of medical science. I think most of us have just learnt the basic stuff about blood doping..

 

[Mambo95]

One or two posters have qualifications in haematology I think. Or at least some sort of medical science. I think most of us have just learnt the basic stuff about blood doping..

That's what I want to know. Which poster's opinions can I give credence to? I say this as someone who works in a very specialised field (nothing to do with doping, medicine or cycling), which occasionally gets publicity. While the commentators know the basics, their depth of knowledge is usually lacking.

 

[luckyboy]

I think quite a few people can look at the numbers (I'm talking in general, not Basso) and say that they're suspicious, or if they're normal...

For instance, you don't really need to be qualified in haematology to see that the numbers that LA put up last year were way off.

 

[ChrisE]

That's what I want to know. Which poster's opinions can I give credence to? I say this as someone who works in a very specialised field (nothing to do with doping, medicine or cycling), which occasionally gets publicity. While the commentators know the basics, their depth of knowledge is usually lacking.

Well, I have been reading these forums for years and have learned that no matter what certain riders do or say, or whatever their test results say, they cannot be trusted and are dopers.

I am not sure of the character of Greg Germer. He may have screwed one of the Ashley twins which makes his test results highly suspect.

I think my longevity on these forums gives me a unique perspective on the inside doping story. Thus, my credentials are impeccable and if you question that then you are a troll.

Take care.