Basso's self-published blood results

[Mambo95]

Well, I have been reading these forums for years and have learned that no matter what certain riders do or say, or whatever their test results say, they cannot be trusted and are dopers.

You and me both.

But there's a lot of talk of rectics and off-scores etc. Technical stuff that I certainly don't know about. I just want to know who really knows what they're talking about (and I'm sure there are some) and who is just making it up as they go along.

 

[ChrisE]

You and me both.

But there's a lot of talk of rectics and off-scores etc. Technical stuff that I certainly don't know about. I just want to know who really knows what they're talking about (and I'm sure there are some) and who is just making it up as they go along.

Fair enough.

It's easy to spot the experts. They hate LA, and holler TROLL to anybody that doesn't or questions their basis of this hate.

At least this is how I can tell who the experts are. YMMV.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

For anyone who is genuinely interested in interpreting Basso's numbers, I suggest you have a look at some graphs in this article http://www.haematologica.org/cgi/reprint/88/9/1053. See the top of page 1059 (that's the page in the journal, not the article length, in case anyone is wondering).

Notice how hemoglobin concentration spikes quickly up then down at the start of altitude exposure, then begins to climb more gradually again. I'm not a heamatologist, but I believe any analysis that doesn't consider how blood values vary during an altitude training block is incomplete at best. My understanding of the explanation for the trends in Ashenden's graphs is as follows:

Plasma volume decreases on initial exposure to altitude, which means red blood cell concentration/hemaglobin concentration/hematocrit goes up, but not the total number of red blood cells. This effect is quite short lived. Over a few weeks, hemoglobin concentration gradually rises in some athletes, this time because of an altitude stimulated increase in total red blood cells. This only works well with live-high-train-low and only if the athlete has enough iron in their system. I don't have time to dig out all the references now sorry.

If we assume that EPO dosing happens both before and after blood donation then mitochondria's explanation makes sense too. However, from my limited knowledge I believe that altitude effects are also a perfectly reasonable explanation.

 

[Oncearunner8]

For anyone who is genuinely interested in interpreting Basso's numbers, I suggest you have a look at some graphs in this article http://www.haematologica.org/cgi/reprint/88/9/1053. See the top of page 1059 (that's the page in the journal, not the article length, in case anyone is wondering).

Notice how hemoglobin concentration spikes quickly up then down at the start of altitude exposure, then begins to climb more gradually again. I'm not a heamatologist, but I believe any analysis that doesn't consider how blood values vary during an altitude training block is incomplete at best. My understanding of the explanation for the trends in Ashenden's graphs is as follows:

Plasma volume decreases on initial exposure to altitude, which means red blood cell concentration/hemaglobin concentration/hematocrit goes up, but not the total number of red blood cells. This effect is quite short lived. Over a few weeks, hemoglobin concentration gradually rises in some athletes, this time because of an altitude stimulated increase in total red blood cells. This only works well with live-high-train-low and only if the athlete has enough iron in their system. I don't have time to dig out all the references now sorry.

If we assume that EPO dosing happens both before and after blood donation then mitochondria's explanation makes sense too. However, from my limited knowledge I believe that altitude effects are also a perfectly reasonable explanation.

Is anyone interested enough to waste time on this? Seriously he is doping no doubt.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Is anyone interested enough to waste time on this? Seriously he is doping no doubt.

I think we can all agree that any time you spent trying to understand this stuff would be wasted.

 

[Oncearunner8]

I think we can all agree that any time you spent trying to understand this stuff would be wasted.

That is a great post. Your a Mensa candidate no doubt. Props to you in July.

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

I think my longevity on these forums gives me a unique perspective on the inside doping story. Thus, my credentials are impeccable and if you question that then you are a troll.
Take care.

I thought it was a red cape but as I arrange the quote to charge at.... I realise that it MUST BE a joke.

got me

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

That is a great post. Your a Mensa candidate no doubt. Props to you in July.

Yes uncalled for on my part, sorry. I just get a bit frustrated with the whole attitude of "I'm so sure of my perspective I can't be bothered checking whether the data support it or not, I'm just going to go ahead and assume it does and make some more public accusations as if these data are new evidence."

 

[luckyboy]

Yes uncalled for on my part, sorry. I just get a bit frustrated with the whole attitude of "I'm so sure of my perspective I can't be bothered checking whether the data support it or not, I'm just going to go ahead and assume it does and make some more public accusations as if these data are new evidence."

Who said/implied that?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Nobody said that explicitly. That's why my reaction was uncalled for. I kinda assumed that's what Oncerunner8 meant so I apologized and explained.

 

[GreggGermer]

Thanks. I noticed your Reticulocytes taking a dip at the same time that your hematocrit goes up. I wonder what the off-score for this would be?

From what I was told my off-score would have made me have a 15 day vacation from racing. I thought it funny I would have been given the time off, but the blood values weren't so far off my normal range (especially since I responded well to altitude).

All the blood work was done for my benefit (one early season, one mid season (or when I felt off for a few weeks) and one at the end of the season if money permitted.

Who do you think you are? You must take us for fools.

Who are you? No clue ... and I don't take anyone for fools till they make themselves a fool.

We will decide if your results are normal or not.

You are more than welcome to come to any conclusions of my innocence or guilt. I have long since stopped racing and could care less what people think of how my results (or actually I should say lack there of) were obtained. My virtue of my current lack of racing pro if I had doped, it would have been quite a futile matter to obtain the results I garnered when racing.

As I stated in my previous post, you are welcome to download my power files from my years of racing and look for any amazing power shifts.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

From what I was told my off-score would have made me have a 15 day vacation from racing. I thought it funny I would have been given the time off, but the blood values weren't so far off my normal range (especially since I responded well to altitude).

Hi and thanks for the data. Can you remember if the analysis of 3/2/05 was done while you were still at altitude or just after you returned?

 

[GreggGermer]

Hi and thanks for the data. Can you remember if the analysis of 3/2/05 was done while you were still at altitude or just after you returned?

That was about 5 to 7 days after I returned from South Africa (3 month stay for training in wonderful 25C weather) to Belgium for the racing year. My doctor (who is a Pro Tour team doctor) gave me a strange look at the result, but also said it was possible to be that high because it was morning and de-hydrated .

The time before when I had a blood test directly after being at altitude for a prolonged time (my first test) I had a level of 48.6. I'd also seen an increase after using an altitude tent but felt the benefit was nullified by the decreased sleep from being in a hot and humid tent.

The whole point of my original post was to point out that even something that looks suspect can actually be natural (but in regards to Basso's case I still say it is suspect as it was a very quick decrease ... of course it could have been a day after a hot race when he didn't drink enough.).