Battle of the frame materials. The debate rages on

[SlantParallelogram]

Name an entry level aluminum bike frame made in the US?

Cannondale CAAD9

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Cannondale CAAD9

Aaaaaaaa! Taiwan. Try again.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Aaaaaaaa! Taiwan. Try again.

Not true, they planned on shifting the production out of the PA plant, but due to all of the hate mail they got they decided to keep the production there. All other Cannondale frames are now built in the far east EXCEPT for the CAAD9 and the Capo frames. They still have the "handmade in USA" honor to them.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Not true, they planned on shifting the production out of the PA plant, but due to all of the hate mail they got they decided to keep the production there. All other Cannondale frames are now built in the far east EXCEPT for the CAAD9 and the Capo frames. They still have the "handmade in USA" honor to them.

Damn! Guess I haven't kept up with what the Cannon is up to. I thought it was just their carbon rigs that were manufactured here. Never would buy one of their bikes anyway, being anti big brand and all. No offence if you're into them of course.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Ever think the OP isn't from the states?

That totally doesn't matter to me. I still want them to buy an American built frame!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

That's actually pretty funny. With a name like bc-hills you'd think people would pick up on that.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Damn! Guess I haven't kept up with what the Cannon is up to. I thought it was just their carbon rigs that were manufactured here. Never would buy one of their bikes anyway, being anti big brand and all. No offence if you're into them of course.

Oh no offense taken. The funny thing is that 20 years ago in the 1980's I really hated the Cannondale frames with their oversize wrist thick tubing. However, they were tig welding aluminum years before it became the industry standard. So that is why I have a new found respect for them.

I think that if the guy who started Cannondale hadn't been a complete idiot and tried to compete in the competitive Motocross Bike market with Cannondale Motorcycles, then all the Cannondales might still be built domestically. The venture into the motorcycle world caused the company to go bankrupt and him to lose control of the company he built.

I wouldn't mind buying a frame from a small volume builder, except most of them are super expensive. I know there are some smaller shops that build affordable steel frames, but I am done with steel.

I grew up racing ChromeMoly frames with Columbus or Reynolds tubing. Aluminum frames are so much lighter.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

My first MTN bike was a big red Cannondale, can't even remember the model, I was 14. I really don't like the ride quality of aluminum road bikes, It's much better than it used to be, but still, I'm mostly on steel or carbon. Aluminum and Century long gravel road rides and races don't mix well.

 

[L29205]

Oh no offense taken. The funny thing is that 20 years ago in the 1980's I really hated the Cannondale frames with their oversize wrist thick tubing. However, they were tig welding aluminum years before it became the industry standard. So that is why I have a new found respect for them.

Klein?? years before Cannondale. Too bad Trek let that brand die.

I grew up racing ChromeMoly frames with Columbus or Reynolds tubing. Aluminum frames are so much lighter.

In the late 80's and early 90's Cannondale may have been a bit lighter then CroMo but lacked the ride-ability on the road IMO.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

My first MTN bike was a big red Cannondale, can't even remember the model, I was 14. I really don't like the ride quality of aluminum road bikes, It's much better than it used to be, but still, I'm mostly on steel or carbon. Aluminum and Century long gravel road rides and races don't mix well.

Oh definitely, the ride quality of aluminum is still fairly harsh. Steel rides nicely, but is definitely heavier. With that being said, I don't go on long rides anymore. I also don't race anymore. So the harsh ride isn't an issue to me anymore.

If I did start thinking about racing again, I think I would probably only go with track racing.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I would consider an aluminum road rig if I started racing crits again, I just can't justify the utter boredom. Last couple of years I've been drawn to the gravel. Keep in mind that today's high end steel is light years lighter than what you're used to. True Temper S3 can build up to within a pound or two of the best aluminum or carbon frames. I'm not one to concern myself with a couple lbs anyway, most people round here have heard me say it's not the arrow, it's the Indian. Cancellara still would've smoked everybody at Roubaix this year if he were riding a custom steel Indy Fab, Soulcraft, whatever, that was a couple lbs more than his Specialized. You know what I mean.

Damn, we kind of hijacked this thread. oops.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Klein?? years before Cannondale. Too bad Trek let that brand die.

In the late 80's and early 90's Cannondale may have been a bit lighter then CroMo but lacked the ride-ability on the road IMO.

That is true about Klein, but they weren't really a "major" brand. Aluminum frames did have a harsh ride. I suppose that might be a problem for longer rides, but for the local criterium they were fine.

I bought a brand new top of the line Italian frame in the early 90s with Columbus SLX tubing and I paid through the teeth for it. It had all the classic Italian details with the fancy chrome lugs and everything. It was top of the line for then, but compared to cheap aluminum frames of today it is heavy as hell.

I suppose that if that same ChromeMoly steel tubing was used to build a frame today and was TIG welded instead of being brazed with heavy lugs then it would be at least 1/2 a pound (or maybe even a full pound) lighter. That plus the steel fork that came with it was almost as heavy as the whole frame.

So a modern ChromeMoly steel frame that is TIG welded without lugs and uses a carbon fork would probably be at least 1.5 to 2 pounds lighter. The biggest advantage about aluminum is that aluminum is cheap as hell. Well that and it won't rust from the inside out like I am sure my steel bikes are probably doing right now.

 

[L29205]

That is true about Klein, but they weren't really a "major" brand. Aluminum frames did have a harsh ride. I suppose that might be a problem for longer rides, but for the local criterium they were fine.

I bought a brand new top of the line Italian frame in the early 90s with Columbus SLX tubing and I paid through the teeth for it. It had all the classic Italian details with the fancy chrome lugs and everything. It was top of the line for then, but compared to cheap aluminum frames of today it is heavy as hell.

I suppose that if that same ChromeMoly steel tubing was used to build a frame today and was TIG welded instead of being brazed with heavy lugs then it would be at least 1/2 a pound (or maybe even a full pound) lighter. That plus the steel fork that came with it was almost as heavy as the whole frame.

So a modern ChromeMoly steel frame that is TIG welded without lugs and uses a carbon fork would probably be at least 1.5 to 2 pounds lighter. The biggest advantage about aluminum is that aluminum is cheap as hell. Well that and it won't rust from the inside out like I am sure my steel bikes are probably doing right now.

I suppose we should move this to another thread but I will respond.

You are correct that CroMo from the 90's cannot compare to the current Al frames. No more than the early Kestrels can compare to current carbon fiber they are apples and oranges (my homage to the original topic). Your and my 90's SLX frame was quite comparable to AL in the day. My De Rosa was within $400 (plus of course) of the top Cannondale of the time and maybe a half a pound heavier.

I do beg to differ on the local Crit assessment, I feel that is one of the times you need a great handling. I found while riding Al frames in crits any bumps in the corners would make the bike slide to the side due to the lack on compliance in the frame. A perfectly smooth crit I would agree the weight and stiffness of Al makes them great.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Carbon, Aluminum, or Steel? Make yourself heard.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

I do beg to differ on the local Crit assessment, I feel that is one of the times you need a great handling. I found while riding Al frames in crits any bumps in the corners would make the bike slide to the side due to the lack on compliance in the frame. A perfectly smooth crit I would agree the weight and stiffness of Al makes them great.

I didn't really ride any welded aluminum frames back then. I mean I did ride some, but they either belonged to other people, or they were new bikes for sale at the shop where I worked, so I didn't do any hard cornering on them.

I did ride some of the bonded aluminum frames of the time like the Vitus Aluminum and Raleigh Technium frames of the time. They had aluminum tubing that was threaded at the ends and coated with glue, and then screwed into steel lugs. Those frames weren't that light, and were super flexible.

Were the Cannondale and Klein frames of the time really so stiff that bumps in the corners caused a slide? I can understand that being a problem. That doesn't seem to happen with the modern frames with carbon forks and rear triangles.

Steel is a really nice material. The only downside is the cost (oh and rusting from the inside out). The cheap ChromeMoly tubing is heavy. The really light ChromeMoly tubing is really expensive. Whereas Aluminum seems to be fairly cheap in general.

 

[richwagmn]

Carbon, Aluminum, or Steel? Make yourself heard.

First racing bike was an aluminum Trek (many, many years ago) with the glued tubes. I thought the ride was very harsh then. Haven't ridden an alu bike since except for a few test rides.

Rode steel for years after that and then quit cycling for a number of years. I certianly preferred the feel of steel over my previous bike.

When I got back into it, I picked up a used carbon trek 5200. What struck me about carbon over alu, was the lack of resonance in the frame. You'd hit a bump and it was over with. The alu frame seemed to resonate over bumps (to me). Compare to my old steel frames, the carbon bike was a rocket when standing up to accellerate. So much less flex. Also, felt more stable to me in hard cornering.

It's hard to compare though. All bikes I've had have had different geometries, tube lengths, wheels, components, etc which certainly makes as much difference as frame material.

I like what carbon frame makers are able to do with tube shape, thickness etc. It seems like the most controllable material for frame makers.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

When I got back into it, I picked up a used carbon trek 5200. What struck me about carbon over alu, was the lack of resonance in the frame. You'd hit a bump and it was over with. The alu frame seemed to resonate over bumps (to me). Compare to my old steel frames, the carbon bike was a rocket when standing up to accellerate. So much less flex. Also, felt more stable to me in hard cornering.

I agree, carbon fiber is probably the best material. The only downside is the cost.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Steel is a really nice material. The only downside is the cost (oh and rusting from the inside out)

It's not 1994 anymore, Aluminum doesn't oxidize and go mush as fast, and steel doesn't rust that quick either. Treat a new frame with JP Weigle's frame saver or Boeshield t-9 and you'll have decades of rust free riding. I have no less than three steel frames over a decade old, 2 of which have seen every winter in that decade and no rust, at least none that I can see. And Minneapolis ain't no better than Chicago, we all salt are roads up here. I can honestly say the only thing that I've rusted out on any of my bikes lately is the lock nuts on my commuter.

 

[L29205]

I didn't really ride any welded aluminum frames back then. I mean I did ride some, but they either belonged to other people, or they were new bikes for sale at the shop where I worked, so I didn't do any hard cornering on them.

I did ride some of the bonded aluminum frames of the time like the Vitus Aluminum and Raleigh Technium frames of the time. They had aluminum tubing that was threaded at the ends and coated with glue, and then screwed into steel lugs. Those frames weren't that light, and were super flexible.

Were the Cannondale and Klein frames of the time really so stiff that bumps in the corners caused a slide? I can understand that being a problem. That doesn't seem to happen with the modern frames with carbon forks and rear triangles.

Steel is a really nice material. The only downside is the cost (oh and rusting from the inside out). The cheap ChromeMoly tubing is heavy. The really light ChromeMoly tubing is really expensive. Whereas Aluminum seems to be fairly cheap in general.

Vitus I really don't feel classifies as an truly competitive frame. I know several pros rode them in the mountain stages of the tour in the early 80's but they were designed around the same tube size and geometry as steel. Not really out of the box type of thinking.

Al, came into its own as you pointed out with the mass availability of Cannondale with oversized tig welded frames.

I worked in a bike shop while I raced in the late 80's and early 90's and the shop sponsored the local race team with Cannondale frames which I road for. I found them to be too stiff in the vertical axis of the frame which I found to cause sliding and a general uncomfortable feel while riding.

Also you are correct that current Al bikes are not the bike of the past. I am just pointing out that it seems that your opinions on steel are based on our past experience with steel and not the current state of steel frames. However your points on Al seem to be based on current Al frames and not the steel frames that you have road on.

BTW I have a Rossin Columbus SL framed bike from the early 80's that I started riding Crit's on and I have yet to find any rust on it. Inside or out (camera inspected).

I would also say it is not a fair assessment to generalize Al as being cheaper than CroMo as a raw material. If it was cheaper I would suspect you would see more custom Al bikes than you do now. Al does require a level of scale in order to become cheaper due to the heat treating after the welding that most manufactures do.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Vitus I really don't feel classifies as an truly competitive frame. I know several pros rode them in the mountain stages of the tour in the early 80's but they were designed around the same tube size and geometry as steel. Not really out of the box type of thinking.

BTW I have a Rossin Columbus SL framed bike from the early 80's that I started riding Crit's on and I have yet to find any rust on it. Inside or out (camera inspected).

I think Sean Kelly rode Vitus frames (carbon and aluminum). Although he never liked to change anything. Always used toe clips and straps and friction shifting even years after everybody else had switched to clipless pedals and indexing. Anyway, I agree with what you are saying about the Vitus stuff being designed like the typical steel frame.

Rossin built some of the coolest frames. They were also hugely popular. It was weird how they just seemed to disappear. Usually some other company will at least buy the rights to the name and keep selling frames with the same brand name on it (like with Masi and Guerciotti).

I actually haven't checked any of my bikes to see if they are rusting from the inside. I read somebody write about that happening, and since I did ride in the rain many times I assumed it was probably happening to my frames. I should check, because I still have all my old bikes.

I have never had a titanium frame. I never even got the chance to ride one. If I ever get enough money together I might have to get one.

 

[brianf7]

I rode Klien Quantum pro for years went through 4 of them light stifffffffff.
but now I ride Custom Bianchi MATTA S9 titanium with carbon forks still stiff enough but more forgiving than the klein when you climb off after a 4 hour ride .

Depends what you want do. do you want it to last 10 years or 2-3 years.
personaly I think it is worth the investment the insurance company like it as well.
They have now placed a $500 excess on Carbon.

 

[Notso Swift]

I so want a Titanium frame, but every time I am in the position to buy I end up with Carbon. I fI could have two top bikes I would have one, maybe I sould look at an old Le Mond, they cant be too dear.
Of course not all carbon is created equal, I have friends who have "big name, strong marketing, super light" frames that last 2-3 years, I have a Look, costs more but lasts, (though I still wish I had a Time)

 

[elapid]

I have a very limited knowledge other than personal experience. I have a titanium Lynskey Level 4 and a steel Raleigh Rush Hour and I used to own a carbon Cervelo R3. The Lynskey is a sweet ride, comfortable, stiff, and reactive. I also like riding gravel roads and the Lynskey is just nice to ride no matter what the surface. Prior to the Lynskey I owned a titanium Litespeed Ultimate and, other than a wrong fit, the Litespeed was also a comfortable, responsive ride. I also fully expect to ride my Lynskey for the rest of my life.

The Raleigh Rush Hour is a single speed but I still like taking it out for long rides. No way can it compare to a high end steel road bike, but there is something about riding it (steel or single speed, I don't know) which is just pure pleasure.

The Cervelo R3 was just pure hell for me. I bought it after a superb test ride in the local hills. But every other experience on that bike after buying it was unpleasant. Uncomfortable despite two professional fittings. It may have been slightly more responsive than my Lynskey and was a little lighter, but it left a sour taste in my mouth regarding carbon. If I were to "invest" in another carbon road bike, then I would consider a Parlee. But I must admit to being very content with my titanium experiences.

 

[forty four]

im on two carbon bikes now which i very much like a fuji team issue 2006 and a 2009 tarmac sworks. the fuji is getting tired i feel. does carbon fatigue like some alloys? i also have raced and trained on an alloy specialized allez good bike performance wise but not a fan of aluminum ride quality. i once rode a friends steel cinelli for like a minute or so and was immediately sold on steel ride quality so comfortable. i will always ride carbon until something superior comes along but my next bike will be a steel frame form one of the companies making light ones like independent fabrications or salsa or this absolutely beautiful complete bike from jamis. nowadays it seems complete steel bikes are in the 16 to 17 pound range not bad at all. one poster did make the point that in a crit the flexing of the steel would allow the rear end to come out of corners without bouncing or skidding because of some compliance. and i can say that even my carbon bikes will occasionally bounce out of corners which i dont like.

 

[4bidon]

Re: frame behavior -- sometimes it's not just the material itself, but how it gets applied. In the '80s I had a Tange Cr-Mo criterium bike. We used to think stiffer = better for crits, but this one was so rigid the back wheel would skip side-to-side when I stood up to sprint. Guys on softer bikes were actually edging ahead while I was trying to keep power going to the asphalt. My Gios and my Colnago never had that problem. Kind of a fatal flaw for a crit bike.

On the other hand, the Vitus aluminum was comfortable, stable, and actually good in the sprint. Despite the mush factor, I won a road race on it and placed in some criteriums. HOWEVER, I learned you had to wait half a tick longer before hammering out of a corner. Once, coming out a quick left-right, I stood up and immediately scraped the pedal because the BB flexed more than on a steel frame. SURPRISE! Luckily, no wipeout, but the rear wheel jumped about a foot to the left, and about 6 inches of tire got pulled to the side. I was away with 4 other guys and last in line, so I didn't take anybody down. With this bike there was a different learning curve, at least for crits, but once I learned how to handle the Vitus it was my favorite till modern carbon came along.