Best All-Rounder Rider Today?

[cineteq]

The guy isnt saying that Cancellara is the "Best GT rider" but that he is the "Best all rounder". Big difference.

Not really, can Cancellara climb with the best? [rhetorical]

Best GT Rider doesn't cut it, because if Tony Martin can take 10 minutes on GC guys, then he'll be a very good GT rider.

 

[theyoungest]

I said that he could've won Paris-Nice with similar parcours as this year, which is the case because it wasn't mountainous at all (not to mention passive racing).

Be that as it may, the leading group on the decisive stage still consisted of Klöden, Sanchez, Tondo, Brajkovic... all guys with much better climbing chops than EBH. Yes, even Tony Martin.

 

[maltiv]

Be that as it may, the leading group on the decisive stage still consisted of Klöden, Sanchez, Tondo, Brajkovic... all guys with much better climbing chops than EBH. Yes, even Tony Martin.

In this form he can. Dauphine 2011 stage 1:

1 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 3:36:42
2 Joaquin Rodriguez Oliver (Spa) Katusha Team 0:00:06
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:00:07
4 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Pro Team Astana
5 Nicolas Roche (Irl) AG2R La Mondiale
6 Edvald Boasson Hagen (Nor) Sky Procycling
7 Thibaut Pinot (Fra) FDJ 0:00:13
8 Rob Ruijgh (Ned) Vacansoleil-DCM Pro Cycling Team
9 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Team Europcar 0:00:15
10 Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Team RadioShack

Every single cyclist who finished infront of Edvald has been top 7 in GTs. Also worth to note that EBH was the only one who tried to follow Rodriguez' acceleration and was 3rd on the road with about 25 m to go before he faded. In addition, everyone on the list except from Edvald can clearly be defined as climbers or stage racers.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No they weren't. I guess by not mentioning Alberto you admit he's an all rounder.
Libertine, if I were to apply your criteria of what an all-rounder should be, then I'd agree with you.

No, I just picked some more extreme examples of riders who have won GTs who are not all-rounders to illustrate how being able to win GTs and stages at will does not an all-rounder make.

Montée de Laurent Jalabert is also an uphill wall. Contador beat Evans every time there. And on the Roche aux Faucons Contador easily rode away from Evans at LBL 2010.

It took how many attempts for Evans to ever win on Mur de Huy?

That was less about ability and more about experience though. He was the strongest in 2008 but mistimed it. Maybe Contador could be considered in that role in 2010. But regardless of what talent he has for it, right now Evans has won a hilly Worlds and a Classic, and Contador hasn't, and that's the kicker.

Cancellara should certainly be on the list above many of the others. He can TT, ride cobbles, sprint (5th on Champs Elysees and 4th in WC this year), has won more of the Monuments than any other present day rider, and has won 2 major stage races. That's some all round ability, even if he'll never be a GT contender.

Of those listed, Valverde for sure, but if the definition is current, then I'd go with Cancellara or EBH.

Agreed. Cancellara is one of the better all-rounders, especially if he continued on his 2009 path and decided to try more hilly races. OK, so that Tour de Suisse parcours was pretty neutered, but Tony Martin's Paris-Nice was too, and Martin doesn't have the ability in one-day races that the Cance has.

I don't see any reason why Gilbert shouldn't be able to win T-A and EBH could without a doubt have won P-N with parcours similar to this year's edition. He also could've been in the top 10 overall of Dauphine this year if not for his puncture+riding for Wiggins (he would've been 2nd overall after the TT and presumably would have lost less time if he didn't spend 5 km's on the front destroying the field on the MTF). I realize there's a lot of "if's" and "could" involved though. In Oman this year when EBH finished 2nd on the MTF after finishing 3rd in the sprint the day before the commentator said that "EBH is without a doubt the most versatile rider in the pro peloton".

Thing is if we consider being able to climb and TT as being an all-rounder then we could as well ask "who's the best stage racer?"

Certainly Tirreno-Adriatico was the best stage race win ever picked up by Paolo Bettini, who you could argue is Gilbert's predecessor and the last true all-rounder in the péloton (though of course his Giro top 10 was a bit of an anomaly).

In this form he can. Dauphine 2011 stage 1:

1 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 3:36:42
2 Joaquin Rodriguez Oliver (Spa) Katusha Team 0:00:06
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:00:07
4 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Pro Team Astana
5 Nicolas Roche (Irl) AG2R La Mondiale
6 Edvald Boasson Hagen (Nor) Sky Procycling
7 Thibaut Pinot (Fra) FDJ 0:00:13
8 Rob Ruijgh (Ned) Vacansoleil-DCM Pro Cycling Team
9 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Team Europcar 0:00:15
10 Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Team RadioShack

Every single cyclist who finished infront of Edvald has been top 7 in GTs. Also worth to note that EBH was the only one who tried to follow Rodriguez' acceleration and was 3rd on the road with about 25 m to go before he faded. In addition, everyone on the list except from Edvald can clearly be defined as climbers or stage racers.

It's promising that he can be at the head of the field after that (see also his second stage win at the Tour) but it's not really indicative of any great climbing or stage-racing prowess. Maybe if he was in similar climbing form he could have top 10ed, maybe even top 5ed, Paris-Nice on its neutered parcours with that, but he's a guy you'd back to outsprint all the guys who outsprinted him to the finish there... I don't know. He has the potential to become an OK stage racer on flat to medium parcours (Beijing, Poland, maybe Romandie at a push; Tirreno-Adriatico has too many steep finishes unless they go back to the style of the days when Óscar Freire won it; he may be able to win others if they have particularly neutered parcours) but I can't see him ever being one to win País Vasco or the like.

 

[Descender]

Evans no doubt.

 

[maltiv]

It's promising that he can be at the head of the field after that (see also his second stage win at the Tour) but it's not really indicative of any great climbing or stage-racing prowess.

My point was simply that with such climbing he would definitely be able to get over the top with the lead group (or close to it, not like he can't descend) in the one decisive stage in Paris-Nice this year. Although I doubt we will see such easy parcours again for a long time.

 

[Angliru]

He meets it much better than your candidates. Sagan can win medium mountain stages, cobbled classics, hilly classics, sprints, prologues and he's a magnificent descender. Although I'd say that EBH is still ahead of him because he can fight with the best in long TT's as well which Sagan hasn't shown yet.

Leipheimer is not an allrounder. Being able to climb and TT is not being an allrounder, that's just a normal GC rider...

He has the "potential" for the bolded types of events above but hasn't yet.

 

[Angliru]

How can we vote for Valverde when he hasn't raced in a long time and we don't know what his current level is.

I'd be more comfortable voting for him than someone like Froome or some of the others on the list who have shown the possibility of success in multiple disciplines but have yet to actually achieve it.

 

[theyoungest]

My point was simply that with such climbing he would definitely be able to get over the top with the lead group (or close to it, not like he can't descend) in the one decisive stage in Paris-Nice this year. Although I doubt we will see such easy parcours again for a long time.

Paris-Nice is always more about who has the early season form than anything else, but even though this year's edition may have been a tad disappointing, to say EBH could have won it is a bit of a stretch, IMO.

But who knows, Luis Leon won it, he's quite similar to EBH as a climber.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Paris-Nice is always more about who has the early season form than anything else, but even though this year's edition may have been a tad disappointing, to say EBH could have won it is a bit of a stretch, IMO.

But who knows, Luis Leon won it, he's quite similar to EBH as a climber.

Are you sure? Luís León has been top 15 at the Tour twice and 10th at the Vuelta.

We've seen glimpses that EBH can climb to a decent standard, but...
Maybe EBH has the climbing chops to win the Nice stage of Paris-Nice (it was the descent that won that for Luísle more anyway). But I'm not sure, there's likely to be somebody that can drop him on La Turbie, it's just if he can stay close enough to chase back on.
Luísle is a pretty good power climber; his 3rd to Montagne de la Lure in 2009 shows this; he came in with Fränk Schleck, dropping climbers like Evans, Moncoutié, his namesake Samuel and Colóm on the way. I wouldn't expect that from EBH, the climb is just too long.
I can see EBH managing to win the País Vasco stage Luísle did, but I can't see him being top 10 on Arrate on a tough stage against the field of the 2009 race.
Though Montée Laurent Jalabert is not suited to Sánchez, I can't really see EBH making the top 10 there either; he's shown himself pretty good on similar scale mountains that are less steep, but we haven't really seen anything from the Norwegian on a steep uphill finish.
Luísle also was in the break on the Col de la Madeleine stage of the 2010 Tour; he was injecting himself back in the GC mix with a great ride over 5 major mountains, to finish in the winning group (2nd). If EBH made it over all those in the break - and being the one to shell half the break - I'd be shocked.
Maybe EBH can develop his climbing enough to win San Sebastián one day, but he's not there yet.
Again in the Vuelta Sánchez went in the break in the queen stage and ended up in the top 5 on the day; three major difficult climbs there, don't see EBH making it over them all. LLS was also top 20 to Bola del Mundo.

I guess if the stage just has the one finishing climb, or not too many strenuous climbs, then the power climbing style makes them both similar. But I feel you are greatly underrating Luís León as a climber if you say he's quite similar to EBH. Luís León appears to be a true diesel - he's at his best on those long, multiple climb stages where he can slowly turn the engine up, and he's best on those constant grind power climbs rather than the steep finesse stuff.

 

[hrotha]

I'd be more comfortable voting for him than someone like Froome or some of the others on the list who have shown the possibility of success in multiple disciplines but have yet to actually achieve it.

Sure, but Froome has 1% of votes, not 30%. His presence in this poll is anecdotical.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Yes but if you read the thread (which is what karlboss says) it specifies that a rider merely has to be able to win a GT and a clasic, hence someone who won his first monument at 23, came 5th in olympics at 22 and has podiumed every GT he has ever targeted is in, regardless of how well he can tt.

who are we talking about here? Maybe I'm having a memory flop.. but it cant be valverde, I dont remember him getting 5th in olympics, and i've seen him fail at GTs which he has targeted, so I dunno..

anyway I'm not concerned with how the thread is defined, I define all round riders whom are capable in many areas. EBH etc. And yes I do consider valverde one of the great all rounders to, that is undeniable. Even if I don't rate him as a flat ttr, he still wins them when the terrain is right, he is a star. I just disagree with you over-hyping, which is totally unecessary, i believe we are all aware of just how good of a rider valverde is.

IMO there aren't many all-rounder riders, not enough to fill a poll even.

Well he's not really defining an all-rounder, he's defining a completely and utterly normal stage racer. Being able to climb, TT and be somewhat competitive in hilly classics is the rule, not the exception, for a stage racer. The problem with that definition is that it misses the fact that more than 50% of cycling races ends with a bunch sprint, and most riders many are defining as allrounders can't win bunch sprints, not even from a significantly reduced bunch. That, in my book, means that you're not an all-rounder. Cobbled classics should also count but maybe not as much.

I'd say that Valverde, EBH and Gilbert are the most complete riders, in that order.

I'd remove gilbert, he is like contador he is just so dominant in his area. But he is by no means a good ttr, improved maybe, good... hell no. He isn't even that good in mountains. No way is he a complete rider.

I only see valverde and ebh as complete riders in regards to ability to be honest. Valverde is iffy with the time out and ebh is based on potential as well as performance. Had valeverde never been on the suspension I'd comfortably say him as the best all rounder. Canc is one of the better all round riders, but still not complete.

Anyway, canc, cavs, gilberts and contadors of the peloton. They are so friggin awesome in thier area of choice that it really doesn't matter if they aren't alrounder types, they are still the sh!t. In fact being a jack of trades isn't necessarily a good thing. Valverde an exception

regarding Tirreno-Adriatico, of course a punchy rider can win this. It is made for the punchy riders.

I'd be more comfortable voting for him than someone like Froome or some of the others on the list who have shown the possibility of success in multiple disciplines but have yet to actually achieve it.

Froome has no place on this poll.

 

[Parrulo]

who are we talking about here?

thats one hell of a memory flop

who's our favourite super peaker, that has won a monument at young age and seems to have an epic skill to come second in every GT he rides?

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

thats one hell of a memory flop

who's our favourite super peaker, that has won a monument at young age and seems to have an epic skill to come second in every GT he rides?

lol i totally forgot about andy
I guess his name in this thead seemed impossible for me

 

[Parrulo]

lol i totally forgot about andy
I guess his name in this thead seemed impossible for me

indeed, it also took me a minute to get it because of the olympics but then i realized andy won lbl in 2009 and the olympics were in 2008 so i got it

 

[c&cfan]

indeed, it also took me a minute to get it because of the olympics but then i realized andy won lbl in 2009 and the olympics were in 2008 so i got it

back then he looked like contador, attacking even when he was already in the red zone. if he wasn't such a spoiled brat, we could've been watching something beautiful in any stage race, with the tour being the pinnacle of awesomeness.

 

[Parrulo]

back then he looked like contador, attacking even when he was already in the red zone. if he wasn't such a spoiled brat, we could've been watching something beautiful in any stage race, with the tour being the pinnacle of awesomeness.

ya i was also an andy fan up untill 2009 then things started going downhill since he hit the podium in paris for the first time

 

[c&cfan]

ya i was also an andy fan up untill 2009 then things started going downhill since he hit the podium in paris for the first time

for me, the attack that defines contador isn't one of those where he kills everyone... but it was the one in this years TDF, the stage that evans won.

how's that for pure guts? bad off season, tired as hell, screwed, booed... weak (by his standards) and in pure pain. what happens? road goes up and boooommm!! hammer down!!! red zone.. pain in his face, pain in everyone's face... that sprint of rage.. damn. i see in him the best cyclist ever. he defines this sport. he can change it.

andy could change it too, he has the talent. unfortunately, no guts anymore...

 

[cineteq]

anyway I'm not concerned with how the thread is defined, I define all round riders whom are capable in many areas. EBH etc. And yes I do consider valverde one of the great all rounders to, that is undeniable. Even if I don't rate him as a flat ttr, he still wins them when the terrain is right, he is a star. I just disagree with you over-hyping, which is totally unecessary, i believe we are all aware of just how good of a rider valverde is.

IMO there aren't many all-rounder riders, not enough to fill a poll even.

Indeed there are not many riders like Valverde. The guy has yet another skill: he very smart. The closest is perhaps Evans. EBH has the potential of being a much powerful Valverde, but only time will tell.

Other riders like T. Martin, Sagan and even Gilbert can still develop key skills and can go onto become all-rounders at some point in their lives.

 

[The Hitch]

who are we talking about here? Maybe I'm having a memory flop.. but it cant be valverde, I dont remember him getting 5th in olympics, and i've seen him fail at GTs which he has targeted, so I dunno..

anyway I'm not concerned with how the thread is defined, I define all round riders whom are capable in many areas. EBH etc. And yes I do consider valverde one of the great all rounders to, that is undeniable. Even if I don't rate him as a flat ttr, he still wins them when the terrain is right, he is a star. I just disagree with you over-hyping, which is totally unecessary, i believe we are all aware of just how good of a rider valverde is.

IMO there aren't many all-rounder riders, not enough to fill a poll even.



I'd remove gilbert, he is like contador he is just so dominant in his area. But he is by no means a good ttr, improved maybe, good... hell no. He isn't even that good in mountains. No way is he a complete rider.

I only see valverde and ebh as complete riders in regards to ability to be honest. Valverde is iffy with the time out and ebh is based on potential as well as performance. Had valeverde never been on the suspension I'd comfortably say him as the best all rounder. Canc is one of the better all round riders, but still not complete.

Anyway, canc, cavs, gilberts and contadors of the peloton. They are so friggin awesome in thier area of choice that it really doesn't matter if they aren't alrounder types, they are still the sh!t. In fact being a jack of trades isn't necessarily a good thing. Valverde an exception

regarding Tirreno-Adriatico, of course a punchy rider can win this. It is made for the punchy riders.



Froome has no place on this poll.

thats one hell of a memory flop

who's our favourite super peaker, that has won a monument at young age and seems to have an epic skill to come second in every GT he rides?

lol i totally forgot about andy
I guess his name in this thead seemed impossible for me

indeed, it also took me a minute to get it because of the olympics but then i realized andy won lbl in 2009 and the olympics were in 2008 so i got it

Guys. Its nice that you want to work these things out for yourself, but if you want to know who I am talking about, wouldn't it just be easier to look at the post I am quoting - hence responding to

evans is much more all rounded then a schleck.

better ttr.
easily more versaitile on the tougher terrain. I'd like to see schleck win the giro stage evans did.
better descender.
better sprinter.
Hills they can both do, mountains too, tho obviosuly schleck is better.
LOL just look at this tougher a little wet descent and andy schleck lost a minute.

a little lame taht froome is on the list tho, the guy has performed in one month of his career.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Indeed there are not many riders like Valverde. The guy has yet another skill: he very smart. The closest is perhaps Evans. EBH has the potential of being a much powerful Valverde, but only time will tell.

Other riders like T. Martin, Sagan and even Gilbert can still develop key skills and can go onto become all-rounders at some point in their lives.

Valverde's intellect is hard to pin down. Sometimes he has an incredible knack of following the right moves; sometimes he knows when to instigate them. Sometimes he can broker the right deal (Szmyd in '09 being the obvious one, though he's hardly Piepoli in the deal-brokering dept). Other times he can decide the péloton's chilling out and go and get a rain jacket just before a difficult section that causes a split in the péloton.

 

[Nick C.]

Valverde's intellect is hard to pin down. Sometimes he has an incredible knack of following the right moves; sometimes he knows when to instigate them. Sometimes he can broker the right deal (Szmyd in '09 being the obvious one, though he's hardly Piepoli in the deal-brokering dept). Other times he can decide the péloton's chilling out and go and get a rain jacket just before a difficult section that causes a split in the péloton.

... or manage to get within 10s of yards of coming back to a trio on a descent, have one go off, have a larger group come up to him and still lose 2 minutes to two men.

 

[buster1]

Cant see how it can be anyone other than Evans! Top 5-10 time trialler in the world, top 5-10 in the mountains, top 5 in the hills, top 10 on the downhill, great bike handler and not too bad at sprinting from a select group. Can go well in 1 week or grand tour stage race and also win classics. Valverde comes closest to him but I cant see him as a genuine GT contender these days in particular in the TDF and Giro. His TT is no where near the same level as Evans nor is his ability in the mountains!

Evans
Valverde
Contador
Boasson Hagen
Gilbert
Nibali

 

[Maxiton]

I do question some of the names on the list and the absence of other names, but bottom line I have to go with Evans. After all, Valverde has been absent for two years and this is a contemporary evaluation of riders, not a nostalgic one - I mean, if we're going back two years and more why not go back further and just say Merckx and be done with it? Maybe Valverde can do something next year and maybe he can't, we'll see. But as it stands right now the answer has to be Evans. And it might be Evans in any case.

 

[gustienordic]

Cant see how it can be anyone other than Evans! Top 5-10 time trialler in the world, top 5-10 in the mountains, top 5 in the hills, top 10 on the downhill, great bike handler and not too bad at sprinting from a select group. Can go well in 1 week or grand tour stage race and also win classics. Valverde comes closest to him but I cant see him as a genuine GT contender these days in particular in the TDF and Giro. His TT is no where near the same level as Evans nor is his ability in the mountains!

Evans
Valverde
Contador
Boasson Hagen
Gilbert
Nibali

If we ranked each rider based on say 7 skills, we could figure this out better.

I say sprinting, hills, mountains, TT, descending, flat, & cobbles, with each rider given a number in relation to other riders.

I am going to add in Scarponi & Samu to satisfy some posters

Okay so:
Sprint = EBH>GILBERT>VALVERDE>EVANS>SCARPONI>SAMU>MARTIN>CONTADOR>NIBALI>WIGGINS

Hills = PG>AV>CE>SS>AC>MS>VN>EBH>BW>TM

Mountains = AC>SS>MS>AV>VN>CE>BW>EBH>TM>PG

TT = TM>BW>AC>CE>MS>VN>EBH>SS>AV>PG

Descending = SS>VN>CE>AC>AV>EBH>PG>MS>BW>TM

Flat = TM>EBH>BW>CE>PG>VN>MS>AC>AV>SS

Cobbles = EBH>PG>CE>AV>VN>TM>MS>BW>AC>SS

Totals:
Evans 47
EBH 44
Valverde 41
Gilbert 40
Contador 39
Nibali 37
Scarponi & Samu 36
Martin 33
Wiggins 29

This is obviously not all that accurate of a method,but it is interesting to think about.