Best Consecutive GT Performance Since Pantani??

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Yea the point of the double GT win is that they're right next to each other which is what makes it so hard and prestigious.

Winning a Vuelta and then the Giro next year isn't in the same league though obviously you're probably still an insane GT rider just to do that.

Of course: I was taking the title of the thread more literally than the OP had probably intended (but that's the title he gave it).

It was however interesting to read this week that Froome's participation in the Vuelta has been suggested by Sky to be a tool for maintaining his condition for next season: is this a prep race for the tour now?

I think TJVG has claimed the same thing....racing here will help him next year.

 

[thehog]

Important to note the Vuelta was in April (a couple of times in June) until 1995 when it was moved to September.

 

[TMP402]

Important to note the Vuelta was in April (a couple of times in June) until 1995 when it was moved to September.

In 1973, when Merckx won the Vuelta and Giro, the GTs were held on the following dates:

Vuelta - 26 April–13 May
Giro - 18 May–9 June
Tour - 30 June–22 July

Less than a week between GTs!

 

[Singer01]

Important to note the Vuelta was in April (a couple of times in June) until 1995 when it was moved to September.

when the thread title says since Pantani, i assume that means the most recent giro - tour double. pre 95 wouldn't be relevant.

 

[Bardamu]

Riccardo Ricco 2008

 

[Echoes]

In 1973, when Merckx won the Vuelta and Giro, the GTs were held on the following dates:

Vuelta - 26 April–13 May
Giro - 18 May–9 June
Tour - 30 June–22 July

Less than a week between GTs!

But Vuelta was a Mickey Mouse stage race back then. Paris-Nice was a bigger race.

 

[Singer01]

In 1973, when Merckx won the Vuelta and Giro, the GTs were held on the following dates:

Vuelta - 26 April–13 May
Giro - 18 May–9 June
Tour - 30 June–22 July

Less than a week between GTs!

But Vuelta was a Mickey Mouse stage race back then. Paris-Nice was a bigger race.

so the Giro - Tour double was more impressive then? only 3 weeks between them instead of 5.

 

[Merckx index]

Yes, I meant consecutive GTs in a single season, for obvious reasons. I didn’t specify that in the title because it seemed to make the title too wordy/clumsy.

LS argues that Sastre in 2008 had the most impressive double attempt. That’s a reasonable position, but in comparing that with Contador’s Giro-Tour doubles, I start with the premise that the Tour-Vuelta double is a little easier than the Giro-Tour. Not because the Giro is harder to win than the Vuelta, though some might argue that, but because the rider is always going to be at less than full strength in the second GT. If you do the Giro-Tour double, you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage for the more difficult GT; if you ride the Tour-Vuelta, you ride the easier GT in the weaker condition. It's easier to win the Vuelta at less than full strength than it is to win the Tour.

Some might argue that a dominant rider can save a little in the Giro, particularly if he builds up a big lead well before the end of the race, as Contador did in 2011. I question how much this is possible. No matter who you are, you have to ride pretty hard to win a GT, and it’s hard to adjust your output so that it’s good enough to win with a safe margin without going all out. If you try to conserve energy for the Tour, you run the risk of messing up a critical stage. I think you have to assume that the rider's priority in the first GT is to concentrate completely on winning that, and worrying about the second GT after the first one is done. So whether your first GT is the Giro or the Tour, your condition at the end of the race ought to be pretty much the same.

Someone mentioned Basso in 2005. It’s an interesting point, but 2006 was the year he really had his chance. He won the Giro by a rarely-seen margin of time, then came into the Tour as more or less the co-favorite with Ullrich. We’ll never know for sure how that would have worked out, but it seems likely Basso would have finished at least second in that Tour.

 

[RedheadDane]

Important to note the Vuelta was in April (a couple of times in June) until 1995 when it was moved to September.

In 1973, when Merckx won the Vuelta and Giro, the GTs were held on the following dates:

Vuelta - 26 April–13 May
Giro - 18 May–9 June
Tour - 30 June–22 July

Less than a week between GTs!

Well, Merckx isn't normal!

 

[Roku]

Menchov won 2007 Vuelta before ending fifth on 2008 Giro and third on 2008 TdF (which could have won had not he fell on Prato Nevoso)

 

[ice&fire]

Important to note the Vuelta was in April (a couple of times in June) until 1995 when it was moved to September.

In 1973, when Merckx won the Vuelta and Giro, the GTs were held on the following dates:

Vuelta - 26 April–13 May
Giro - 18 May–9 June
Tour - 30 June–22 July

Less than a week between GTs!

Battaglin did the same in 1981
Vuelta - 21 April – 10 May
Giro - 13 May – 7 June

 

[GuyIncognito]

Important to note the Vuelta was in April (a couple of times in June) until 1995 when it was moved to September.

In 1973, when Merckx won the Vuelta and Giro, the GTs were held on the following dates:

Vuelta - 26 April–13 May
Giro - 18 May–9 June
Tour - 30 June–22 July

Less than a week between GTs!

Battaglin did the same in 1981
Vuelta - 21 April – 10 May
Giro - 13 May – 7 June

And unlike Merckx, Battaglin didn't do it on a course with only 1 mountain stage (not a finish), and tailor-made specifically to attract him, as was Merckx's case.

 

[El Pistolero]

Important to note the Vuelta was in April (a couple of times in June) until 1995 when it was moved to September.

In 1973, when Merckx won the Vuelta and Giro, the GTs were held on the following dates:

Vuelta - 26 April–13 May
Giro - 18 May–9 June
Tour - 30 June–22 July

Less than a week between GTs!

Battaglin did the same in 1981
Vuelta - 21 April – 10 May
Giro - 13 May – 7 June

And unlike Merckx, Battaglin didn't do it on a course with only 1 mountain stage (not a finish), and tailor-made specifically to attract him, as was Merckx's case.

And unlike Battaglin, Merckx actually won Grand Tours outside of one magical year. As if Merckx would have lost if the route was different.

 

[staubsauger]

Re:

Not dealing in hypotheticals, it's Sastre. If you want to argue that the lesser competition at the Vuelta means his 3rd at the Vuelta is worth less than Contador's 5th at the Tour, then fine, but I'll then argue that if the competition at the Tour counts for more, then Sastre's Tour win is worth more than Contador's Giro win, and regardless, Contador's results were stripped from him, whether or not you agree with that decision.

In terms of the quality of rides needed to get those results, we can debate. But looking at GC results in isolation nobody can beat Sastre in the timeframe.

Menchov 2008 it is for me. Simply because I rate Giro - Tour higher than the Vuelta!

But that plus Valverde this year is probably the most you can archive in a Giro & Tour double these days. Unless you peak for one to win and top 5 the other like Contador in 2011.

If we are talking about Tour + Vuelta than its indeed Sastre. Also Valverde and Purito peaked for top 5 in both races multiple times. So apparently it's easier. Even Froome still managed 2nd & 4th in 2012.

The Giro really looks like the gt that hurts riders most. Especially in 2011 when Scarponi, Nibali and Purito were still massively disfavored by the brutal Giro that.

I guess we just found out its 2011 Contador in that case. Definitely him even.

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

Adam Hansen.

Please god, no. PR all the way at this point.

Yes, because what he's doing is no performance at all.. (or did you mean he's going to Roubaix next spring?)

Sastre, if not GC-only - Sagan or Cav.

Valv.Piti doesn't really rate Hansen's record in GT's, it's not the only forum he's said this

 

[jens_attacks]

Alberto contador velasco, 2011.

 

[Ataraxus]

The analysis is very simple (we talk numbers because they count the most and they never lie).
There are 3 main criteria for the evaluation

a)- Placing in 1st GT + placing in 2nd GT should be the smallest possible. 1+3 < 1+5 ---> Advantage Sastre.
b)- If two riders have one 1st place, then: 1st in Tour >> 1st in Giro >> 1st in Vuelta ----> Advantage Sastre
c)- All the other criteria are negligible because Sastre won the big two.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Important to note the Vuelta was in April (a couple of times in June) until 1995 when it was moved to September.

In 1973, when Merckx won the Vuelta and Giro, the GTs were held on the following dates:

Vuelta - 26 April–13 May
Giro - 18 May–9 June
Tour - 30 June–22 July

Less than a week between GTs!

Battaglin did the same in 1981
Vuelta - 21 April – 10 May
Giro - 13 May – 7 June

And unlike Merckx, Battaglin didn't do it on a course with only 1 mountain stage (not a finish), and tailor-made specifically to attract him, as was Merckx's case.

And unlike Battaglin, Merckx actually won Grand Tours outside of one magical year. As if Merckx would have lost if the route was different.

Ocaña was the better climber, and dropped him hard on the only mountain of that Vuelta.
He didn't even have the best accumulated time, if you were to take away the generous time bonuses (30 seconds at intermediate sprints for example), Merckx would've been 3rd behind Ocaña and Thévenet.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Yea the point of the double GT win is that they're right next to each other which is what makes it so hard and prestigious.

Winning a Vuelta and then the Giro next year isn't in the same league though obviously you're probably still an insane GT rider just to do that.

Of course: I was taking the title of the thread more literally than the OP had probably intended (but that's the title he gave it).

It was however interesting to read this week that Froome's participation in the Vuelta has been suggested by Sky to be a tool for maintaining his condition for next season: is this a prep race for the tour now?

I think TJVG has claimed the same thing....racing here will help him next year.

Not quite, but I have seen riders say that if you ride the Vuelta and the Autumn Classics you don't need to train until January unless you ride the TDU.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Christopher Froome, 2016

 

[DFA123]

Sastre is let down a bit by the quality of the field in his win. The best thing he did in the 2008 Tour was outfox his own team mates - it wasn't such an epic performance. I'd go with Contador in 2011 or Heras in 2000. Both won their GT pretty comfortably and Heras in particular finishing 5th behind Armstrong, Ullrich and Beloki arguably took as good a perfomrance as Sastre finishing slightly ahead of Evans and Menchov.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re:

Christopher Froome, 2016

Lets hope you are right.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Christopher Froome, 2016

Lets hope you are right.

I think so

Anyway, would be interesting to see how that velo d'or poll would go now after this Vuelta

 

[burning]

Velo d'or is a crap award which heavily favors Tour winners. Contador should have won in 2014 by a landslide but he almost lost that award to the Nibali, who did not jack sh*t apart from that Tour.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Sastre is let down a bit by the quality of the field in his win. The best thing he did in the 2008 Tour was outfox his own team mates - it wasn't such an epic performance. I'd go with Contador in 2011 or Heras in 2000. Both won their GT pretty comfortably and Heras in particular finishing 5th behind Armstrong, Ullrich and Beloki arguably took as good a perfomrance as Sastre finishing slightly ahead of Evans and Menchov.

That stage win on Alpe d'Huez was pretty awesome. Not many riders can say they've won the Tour off the back of a solo win there.