Best Rider to never wear the rainbow jersey on the road

[barmaher]

Re: Re:

Top 5 in my world:

Tour
Giro
Paris-Roubaix
Vuelta
Worlds

In my world : (on a scale of 1-100 where 1 is anatomic jock race and 100 is Tour de France)

1 Tour de France - 100
2 Olympic Road Race - 93
3 Giro d'Italia -90
4 World Road Race -88
5 Vuelta a Espana - 86

6 Paris Roubaix -80
= Ronde - 80
8 Olympic Time Trial - 79
9 Liege - 77
10 World Time Trial -75
11 MSR -74
12 GDL - 72
13 Amstel Gold Race -67
= Fleche Wallone -67
15 Paris Nice-65
= Tirreno Adriatico -65
= Vuelta a Pais Vasco -65
18 Dauphine - 62
19 San Sebastien -61
20 Queen stage of Tour de France -60

The order looks fine (I would amend one or two things slightly.....Giro roughly equal to Olympic RR, but this is personal preference) but I have an issue with the figures.

Are you saying you would prefer to win Fleche Wallone and Pais Vasco than a Tour de France win? Because the numbers suggest so.

 

[Echoes]

Thanks for the info. Girardengo was maybe too small and light for Roubaix?

You might be right. It's true that Girardengo was very small, but squat, I think. However remember that it was the old Paris-Roubaix route with well-aligned cobbles and already in the process of disappearance (by 1922 on). In those days, there were cobbles everywhere, but good cobbles, so it wasn't a specificity of Paris-Roubaix.

What's your ranking for Green Jersey

Why should it even be ranked? It's just entertainment ... It's not worth anything and it shouldn't even exist. Stage results already have values, why adding a duplication to it...

While de Vlaeminck only medaled once (silver) and wasn't even that close to gold in '75

He was very close to Kuiper actually. 17" if I'm not mistaken. When Kuiper attacked, it was Van Impe's job to counter but he didn't. Actually the day before at the press conference, De Vlaeminck cracked a joke on Van Impe. A journalist said they were with the 10 of them but Roger replied: 9 and a half, pointing towards Van Impe. Not to say that Van Impe was a bad rider but referring to his small height and just for the sake of humour. However Van Impe took it very badly and refused to race for De Vlaeminck. Later they reconciled and Van Impe admitted he should rather have laughed at that joke because he could have handled Kuiper.

When I think of it, Yvoir is in my region, where I grew up. My father saw the Dutch team in their hotel in Beez, a little North of Namur. Kuiper was rather unknown at that time, but for his Olympic title. That's the race that made him famous and he made a great career afterwards.

But you are right about the lack of team tactics in the Belgian teams of that era. They were all racing for themselves.

 

[fauniera]

That last quote about de Vlaeminck is from carton, not me.

Quoting is a mess since the update, i really hate it.

 

[bala v]

Can it even be rated as high as the other monuments?

The problem with the World Championship is its ambivalence. Mendrisio or Florence were certainly harder than say the Tour of Flanders but Copenhagen is certainly not worth a GP Pino Cerami.

That's true, but it also works in the other direction. Most Italian riders competed very little outside of Italy in that time, potentially robbing them from big victories abroad. What would have Girardengo been able to do in the Ardennes races, for instance? Quite a lot, i would think, but of course there is no way to know.

You've got a point too. In the 1920's cycling was basically a matter for three nations: France, Belgium & Italy. The rest was a few isolated riders from Switzerland or Luxembourg for example. However your example wasn't well chosen. The Ardennes "classic" that existed at that time was Liège-Bastogne-Liège but it was a very minor event. I mean even the best Belgians did not race it. It wasn't until long after WWII that Liège evolved into a well-established classic.

The most prestigious classics of the time were Bordeaux-Paris, Paris-Roubaix, Paris-Tours and to some extent Paris-Brussels. It's true that Girardengo rarely took part in them but the few times he did Paris-Roubaix he did not shine while the Pélissier brothers were always very convincing when they raced in Italy, Henri winning several classics. The most valuable race that Girardengo got outside of Italy is the GP Wolber, which was the real World Championship between 1922 & 1926 (and still a high regarded race afterwards but the WC were created in 1927). That win sure showed what he was made of (but my point is not to deny he was a great champion) but he just surprised Pélissier in the sprint, an ageing Pélissier (34 years old) and was so proud to have defeated Pélissier that he had the finish photo painted and hung the framework in his home. I think it shows the hierarchy between both riders. It's arguable, though, but the seemingly lesser palmares for the French is only explained by the fact that there were fewer races in France than in Italy and by the fact that most of the great classics that Pélissier won either disappeared or lost their prestige today. Girardengo was a better track rider though. He beat Pélissier several times in omnium contests. The Girardengo/Pélissier rivalry accounted for heated debates between French and Italian observers at the time.

By the way, I tried to watch the TV film "La leggenda del Bandito e del Campione" about the relationship between Girardengo and the anarchist Sante Pollastri but my Italian is not good enough. However in one of the first scene, we see Gira arriving in Paris for an omnium contest. One of the spectators asked him: "avez-vous peur de Pélissier?" ("Are you afraid of Pélissier?"). I'd like to know what the character Girardengo responded. Unfortunately the clip is no longer on Youtube. But it seemed like a great film.

Francesco De Gregori - Il Bandito e il Campione

I think it showed the changing of the guards. Pelissier was already a big name before WWI and couple of years older than Girardengo, it's natural that Girardengo had great respect for him. But that GP Wolber happened in 1922, after that Pelissier slowly decline and Girardengo rose to the top and stayed there for entire 1920's. It was not the first time he beat him though, he was better already in couple of MSR and Lombardia's, but that time it was on international stage, not in his home country. Anyway, in my book, although I think Henri Pelissier was a great champion, Costante Girardengo stands higher

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Top 5 in my world:

Tour
Giro
Paris-Roubaix
Vuelta
Worlds

In my world : (on a scale of 1-100 where 1 is anatomic jock race and 100 is Tour de France)

1 Tour de France - 100
2 Olympic Road Race - 93
3 Giro d'Italia -90
4 World Road Race -88
5 Vuelta a Espana - 86

6 Paris Roubaix -80
= Ronde - 80
8 Olympic Time Trial - 79
9 Liege - 77
10 World Time Trial -75
11 MSR -74
12 GDL - 72
13 Amstel Gold Race -67
= Fleche Wallone -67
15 Paris Nice-65
= Tirreno Adriatico -65
= Vuelta a Pais Vasco -65
18 Dauphine - 62
19 San Sebastien -61
20 Queen stage of Tour de France -60

Looks good. What's your ranking for Green Jersey, being runner-up in Tour De France and "the fourth Tour", Tour de Suisse?

Good question. I think Id give it maybe a 75. Nice round number. Some people might complain that i have it above winning 2 monuments but it is the biggest stage race in the world and the lights are on brightest.

Coming 3rd at the Tour is however to me basically indistinguishable from coming 2nd so that wouldn't be far behind either. I think Murito has got more out of podiuming the Tour than doubling Lombardia.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Top 5 in my world:

Tour
Giro
Paris-Roubaix
Vuelta
Worlds

In my world : (on a scale of 1-100 where 1 is anatomic jock race and 100 is Tour de France)

1 Tour de France - 100
2 Olympic Road Race - 93
3 Giro d'Italia -90
4 World Road Race -88
5 Vuelta a Espana - 86

6 Paris Roubaix -80
= Ronde - 80
8 Olympic Time Trial - 79
9 Liege - 77
10 World Time Trial -75
11 MSR -74
12 GDL - 72
13 Amstel Gold Race -67
= Fleche Wallone -67
15 Paris Nice-65
= Tirreno Adriatico -65
= Vuelta a Pais Vasco -65
18 Dauphine - 62
19 San Sebastien -61
20 Queen stage of Tour de France -60

The order looks fine (I would amend one or two things slightly.....Giro roughly equal to Olympic RR, but this is personal preference) but I have an issue with the figures.

Are you saying you would prefer to win Fleche Wallone and Pais Vasco than a Tour de France win? Because the numbers suggest so.

Good point.

Actually I thought about that before I posted.

But I thought it would look ridiculous if I had the TDF as 100 and then 1 or 2 other races as 60 and then all the other races in the low teens.

So the numbers are more a way for me to demonstrate where I think the gaps are with TDF as Tier 1, the other 2 gts and the 2 big 1 dayers as tier 2, tts and monuments as tier 3 and everything else tier 4 and lower.

As for Giro and ORR being swapped, I can see that. I don't think there are that big differences between the races in Tier 2.

But in the past some people on here used to rank orr as a nothing race, didn't even have it in top 10. To me I just have to look at how Samuel Sanchez has made a career of winning that one sprint. The fact that you get to hold onto the title of reigning champion for 4 full years and not just 12 quick monhts, and the fact that it is currently the very first medal awarded at the olympic games when the eyes of the world are on that event, just makes it such a big event. Its also the only event besides the Tour where a mere podium spot can be treated as a win.

So for me ORR is #2. We are already seeing major stars direct their schedules next year towards it. But i can understand if some have Giro slightly ahead.

Top 5 in my world:

Tour
Giro
Paris-Roubaix
Vuelta
Worlds

In my world : (on a scale of 1-100 where 1 is anatomic jock race and 100 is Tour de France)

1 Tour de France - 100
2 Olympic Road Race - 93
3 Giro d'Italia -90
4 World Road Race -88
5 Vuelta a Espana - 86

6 Paris Roubaix -80
= Ronde - 80
8 Olympic Time Trial - 79
9 Liege - 77
10 World Time Trial -75
11 MSR -74
12 GDL - 72
13 Amstel Gold Race -67
= Fleche Wallone -67
15 Paris Nice-65
= Tirreno Adriatico -65
= Vuelta a Pais Vasco -65
18 Dauphine - 62
19 San Sebastien -61
20 Queen stage of Tour de France -60

Looks good. What's your ranking for Green Jersey, being runner-up in Tour De France and "the fourth Tour", Tour de Suisse?

I think Hitch would rank Suisse at least on par with P-N. But then, I think it's worth more than a Flèche, at least.

The reason I have PR and TA above Giro is because there's always excitement about those being the first major races of the season and because March is far away enough from May April July and September that whatver people's aims are for the rest of the season, pretty much all go to one of the 2 for the win.
So we can see The Giro riders fight the Tour riders (eg Nibali vs Froome and Contador in 2013). Whereas at the TDS and Dauphine often the Giro riders are too tired and many of the TDF riders are too cautious, since its mid season.

 

[Finn84]

Sean Kelly.

In the modern age - Fabu. Heavily handicapped by the fact that he gets a couple of journeymen while his competitors got to role with 9 men supersquads.

Valverde has a lot of podiums but I think in many of them he was clearly not the best rider, just rode a strong team / sprint finish to podium spots.

Didn't bother Rui Costa.

Yeah, just six times, pure coincidence...

it's precisely not a coincidence. He's been good enough to come 2nd or 3rd but I don't remember in any of those races coming away with the conclusion that Valverde should have won, or even could have won. And this thread is about winning.

And btw these comments are coming from someone who routinely lauds Valverde as the best all round rider of the modern era.

My impression was that he fluffed 2006. 2013 he was in the driver's seat, but they are not video game characters so perhaps his legs were shot. Otherwise, he seems very pleased to podium, not that that is bad, but ...

I think Valverde not winning in 2006 was down to Xavier Florencio. How the final kilometre unfolded, I think Spain planned to go with Sanchez first, Valverde 2nd and Florencio 3rd to the tunnel. XF didn't manage to do that and was fifth (Zabel and Bettini being 3rd and 4th)

Florencio did what he was supposed to do there but with him being lower in the order, Valverde couldn't win.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Personally the one he 'should've won' seems to me like it was back in 2003.
He won the field sprint for 2nd, it's just that Astarloa was ahead. He couldn't chase down his own teammate, and no one else made much of an effort because all the teams kept looking at each other, so Astarloa stayed away and Valverde got 2nd.

Yeah, didn't look like he should've won any of the others, just hung on and sprinted to a placing.

 

[Pantani_lives]

These are the riders who have won the most monuments without winning the world title:

1. De Vlaeminck 11
2. Girardengo* 9
Kelly
4. Bartali 7
Cancellara

Girardengo had the disadvantage that it only started in 1927, when he was already 34 but still finished second.