Best Rider to never wear the rainbow jersey on the road

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

ahahahaha the last 20 years? Where have you been Armstrong and indurain were utterly dominant in the last 20 years.
edit, well indurains last of 5 tours was 20 years ago exactly

You've missed the point. Armstrong and Indurain were dominant in Grand Tours only. Both did very little in any other discipline (although Armstrong was a pretty decent one day racer before his cancer and before he switched his attention to the GTs - he never did well in both concurrently).

The point is that in the last 25 or so years no rider has even got close to competing for the win at all five monuments, let alone throwing GT's in as well. In the 70s and 80s, the top riders routinely challenged for every major event. It's just not possible nowadays for one rider to beat five different top riders who have each peaked specifically for their main event and are backed by a super strong team of domestiques to control the race. Cycling is fundementally different now; though Valverde is clearly the closest we have to a throwback - given his insanely rounded power profile.

While most of your points are correct, Indurain won one week stage races constantly and placed well and even won in one day races.

 

[Echoes]

I think the thread has a major flaw in that it suggests that the World Championship (in-line race) is a special race that only the best would win while as a matter of fact it's a classic like any other classic. Many obscured riders won it (Ottenbros, Muller) and a huge lot of accomplished classic riders never did. Depending on the route it can be equal to a decent classic like Liège-Bastogne (Mendrisio, Valkenburg,..) or just a 260km long kermess (Copenhagen, Madrid, Zolder, etc).

Of course, the World Championship (in-line race) can never be rated as high as Paris-Roubaix, history teaches us.

In the list above, I'd pick the De Vlaeminck out of fanboyism but realistically I have to rate Kelly higher for better ITT skills. Let's say Kelly was more complete and De Vlaeminck more versatile/ecclectic (though De Vlaeminck was not a mug against the clock, of course, and won many of his battles against Kelly when both were in prime). Those who think that Kelly does not compare with present-day riders should rather have a look at his best performance on the Col d'Eze, which is still a record, if I'm not mistaken. Kelly is a rider for the ages, for sure.

Cancellara does not belong here. He won 4 rainbow jerseys on the road.

Girardengo is a bit overrated. First he won the World Championship (then called GP Wolber). Second, his seemingly impressive palmares is mainly due to the isolationist policy of Italian race organizers who for some reasons stopped inviting the best Belgians and the best French by 1921/1922 at their two main classics (Milan-Sanremo and the Tour of Lombardy) while the national tour predominantly remained an all Italian affair until the 1950's. I like Girardengo, the character, his advanced training methods for the time, his prolificness, his story with Sante Pollastri, ... But we should remain objective. Henri Pélissier has a much more prestigious palmares considering which were the real top races of their time.

This analysis of Girardengo's career also holds true for Binda and for Bartali. The three won big races outside of Italy but 80% of their palmares were built inside their own borders against a pretty local field. Besides, the Italians invented the cult of the Campionissimo and his gregari, while the Belgians & French were rather mano a mano. It means that Binda's main rivals were actually his own teammates.

 

[rghysens]

Re:

De Vlaeminck is the best one-day-racer of this list. Jut take a look at his palmares. And then, when you think this is impressive, start realizing this was during the Merckx era!

And Godefroot, Gimondi, Moser, Hinault, Raas, Kuiper,...

 

[bala v]

I think the thread has a major flaw in that it suggests that the World Championship (in-line race) is a special race that only the best would win while as a matter of fact it's a classic like any other classic. Many obscured riders won it (Ottenbros, Muller) and a huge lot of accomplished classic riders never did. Depending on the route it can be equal to a decent classic like Liège-Bastogne (Mendrisio, Valkenburg,..) or just a 260km long kermess (Copenhagen, Madrid, Zolder, etc).

Of course, the World Championship (in-line race) can never be rated as high as Paris-Roubaix, history teaches us.

In the list above, I'd pick the De Vlaeminck out of fanboyism but realistically I have to rate Kelly higher for better ITT skills. Let's say Kelly was more complete and De Vlaeminck more versatile/ecclectic (though De Vlaeminck was not a mug against the clock, of course, and won many of his battles against Kelly when both were in prime). Those who think that Kelly does not compare with present-day riders should rather have a look at his best performance on the Col d'Eze, which is still a record, if I'm not mistaken. Kelly is a rider for the ages, for sure.

Cancellara does not belong here. He won 4 rainbow jerseys on the road.

Girardengo is a bit overrated. First he won the World Championship (then called GP Wolber). Second, his seemingly impressive palmares is mainly due to the isolationist policy of Italian race organizers who for some reasons stopped inviting the best Belgians and the best French by 1921/1922 at their two main classics (Milan-Sanremo and the Tour of Lombardy) while the national tour predominantly remained an all Italian affair until the 1950's. I like Girardengo, the character, his advanced training methods for the time, his prolificness, his story with Sante Pollastri, ... But we should remain objective. Henri Pélissier has a much more prestigious palmares considering which were the real top races of their time.

This analysis of Girardengo's career also holds true for Binda and for Bartali. The three won big races outside of Italy but 80% of their palmares were built inside their own borders against a pretty local field. Besides, the Italians invented the cult of the Campionissimo and his gregari, while the Belgians & French were rather mano a mano. It means that Binda's main rivals were actually his own teammates.

Of course...NOT!

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Echoes, the World Championship can not be rated as high as Paris-Roubaix, but also it is harder to win than any of the other classics. Both of them are true.

As you say, it is a classic race, so I compare the riders above on terms of this. De Vlaeminck is all time second in monuments wins, while he had the best rider of all time as his opponent. Also he is one of the 3 riders that won all 5 monuments.

 

[Mr.White]

WC RR is the most important one-day race in the world! Period! In fact it's the most prestigious race to win after Le Tour. Paris-Roubaix is maybe the most important one-day race (although I don't agree), but only after WCRR. You don't get that jersey to wear one year for nothing!

 

[WheelofGear]

Of course, the World Championship (in-line race) can never be rated as high as Paris-Roubaix, history teaches us.

Can it even be rated as high as the other monuments?

And good analysis btw.

 

[fauniera]

Second, his seemingly impressive palmares is mainly due to the isolationist policy of Italian race organizers who for some reasons stopped inviting the best Belgians and the best French by 1921/1922 at their two main classics (Milan-Sanremo and the Tour of Lombardy) while the national tour predominantly remained an all Italian affair until the 1950's. [...] This analysis of Girardengo's career also holds true for Binda and for Bartali. The three won big races outside of Italy but 80% of their palmares were built inside their own borders against a pretty local field.

That's true, but it also works in the other direction. Most Italian riders competed very little outside of Italy in that time, potentially robbing them from big victories abroad. What would have Girardengo been able to do in the Ardennes races, for instance? Quite a lot, i would think, but of course there is no way to know.

 

[fungusbear]

Re:

WC RR is the most important one-day race in the world! Period! In fact it's the most prestigious race to win after Le Tour. Paris-Roubaix is maybe the most important one-day race (although I don't agree), but only after WCRR. You don't get that jersey to wear one year for nothing!

I agree- after the Tour I think the world championships is the most important race in cycling. GVA said in an interview that it was the most important one day race in the world. Obviously every rider puts higher stock in different races, but I think across the peleton the World Championship RR would be no. 1 one day race.

 

[WheelofGear]

WC RR is bigger than winning the Giro? C'mon, guys.

 

[WheelofGear]

Top 5 in my world:

Tour
Giro
Paris-Roubaix
Vuelta
Worlds

 

[BigMac]

Re:

WC RR is bigger than winning the Giro? C'mon, guys.

Yes.

 

[Echoes]

Can it even be rated as high as the other monuments?

The problem with the World Championship is its ambivalence. Mendrisio or Florence were certainly harder than say the Tour of Flanders but Copenhagen is certainly not worth a GP Pino Cerami.

That's true, but it also works in the other direction. Most Italian riders competed very little outside of Italy in that time, potentially robbing them from big victories abroad. What would have Girardengo been able to do in the Ardennes races, for instance? Quite a lot, i would think, but of course there is no way to know.

You've got a point too. In the 1920's cycling was basically a matter for three nations: France, Belgium & Italy. The rest was a few isolated riders from Switzerland or Luxembourg for example. However your example wasn't well chosen. The Ardennes "classic" that existed at that time was Liège-Bastogne-Liège but it was a very minor event. I mean even the best Belgians did not race it. It wasn't until long after WWII that Liège evolved into a well-established classic.

The most prestigious classics of the time were Bordeaux-Paris, Paris-Roubaix, Paris-Tours and to some extent Paris-Brussels. It's true that Girardengo rarely took part in them but the few times he did Paris-Roubaix he did not shine while the Pélissier brothers were always very convincing when they raced in Italy, Henri winning several classics. The most valuable race that Girardengo got outside of Italy is the GP Wolber, which was the real World Championship between 1922 & 1926 (and still a high regarded race afterwards but the WC were created in 1927). That win sure showed what he was made of (but my point is not to deny he was a great champion) but he just surprised Pélissier in the sprint, an ageing Pélissier (34 years old) and was so proud to have defeated Pélissier that he had the finish photo painted and hung the framework in his home. I think it shows the hierarchy between both riders. It's arguable, though, but the seemingly lesser palmares for the French is only explained by the fact that there were fewer races in France than in Italy and by the fact that most of the great classics that Pélissier won either disappeared or lost their prestige today. Girardengo was a better track rider though. He beat Pélissier several times in omnium contests. The Girardengo/Pélissier rivalry accounted for heated debates between French and Italian observers at the time.

By the way, I tried to watch the TV film "La leggenda del Bandito e del Campione" about the relationship between Girardengo and the anarchist Sante Pollastri but my Italian is not good enough. However in one of the first scene, we see Gira arriving in Paris for an omnium contest. One of the spectators asked him: "avez-vous peur de Pélissier?" ("Are you afraid of Pélissier?"). I'd like to know what the character Girardengo responded. Unfortunately the clip is no longer on Youtube. But it seemed like a great film.

Francesco De Gregori - Il Bandito e il Campione

 

[fauniera]

Thanks for the info. Girardengo was maybe too small and light for Roubaix?

Completely agree with your Copenhagen/GP Pino Cerami argument, by the way.

 

[The Hitch]

Sean Kelly.

In the modern age - Fabu. Heavily handicapped by the fact that he gets a couple of journeymen while his competitors got to role with 9 men supersquads.

Valverde has a lot of podiums but I think in many of them he was clearly not the best rider, just rode a strong team / sprint finish to podium spots.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Top 5 in my world:

Tour
Giro
Paris-Roubaix
Vuelta
Worlds

In my world : (on a scale of 1-100 where 1 is anatomic jock race and 100 is Tour de France)

1 Tour de France - 100
2 Olympic Road Race - 93
3 Giro d'Italia -90
4 World Road Race -88
5 Vuelta a Espana - 86

6 Paris Roubaix -80
= Ronde - 80
8 Olympic Time Trial - 79
9 Liege - 77
10 World Time Trial -75
11 MSR -74
12 GDL - 72
13 Amstel Gold Race -67
= Fleche Wallone -67
15 Paris Nice-65
= Tirreno Adriatico -65
= Vuelta a Pais Vasco -65
18 Dauphine - 62
19 San Sebastien -61
20 Queen stage of Tour de France -60

 

[DBotero]

Valverde.

 

[Mr.White]

Sean Kelly.

In the modern age - Fabu. Heavily handicapped by the fact that he gets a couple of journeymen while his competitors got to role with 9 men supersquads.

Valverde has a lot of podiums but I think in many of them he was clearly not the best rider, just rode a strong team / sprint finish to podium spots.

Didn't bother Rui Costa.

Yeah, just six times, pure coincidence...

 

[The Hitch]

Sean Kelly.

In the modern age - Fabu. Heavily handicapped by the fact that he gets a couple of journeymen while his competitors got to role with 9 men supersquads.

Valverde has a lot of podiums but I think in many of them he was clearly not the best rider, just rode a strong team / sprint finish to podium spots.

Didn't bother Rui Costa.

Yeah, just six times, pure coincidence...

it's precisely not a coincidence. He's been good enough to come 2nd or 3rd but I don't remember in any of those races coming away with the conclusion that Valverde should have won, or even could have won. And this thread is about winning.

And btw these comments are coming from someone who routinely lauds Valverde as the best all round rider of the modern era.

 

[Nick C.]

Sean Kelly.

In the modern age - Fabu. Heavily handicapped by the fact that he gets a couple of journeymen while his competitors got to role with 9 men supersquads.

Valverde has a lot of podiums but I think in many of them he was clearly not the best rider, just rode a strong team / sprint finish to podium spots.

Didn't bother Rui Costa.

Yeah, just six times, pure coincidence...

it's precisely not a coincidence. He's been good enough to come 2nd or 3rd but I don't remember in any of those races coming away with the conclusion that Valverde should have won, or even could have won. And this thread is about winning.

And btw these comments are coming from someone who routinely lauds Valverde as the best all round rider of the modern era.

My impression was that he fluffed 2006. 2013 he was in the driver's seat, but they are not video game characters so perhaps his legs were shot. Otherwise, he seems very pleased to podium, not that that is bad, but ...

 

[Mr.White]

Sean Kelly.

In the modern age - Fabu. Heavily handicapped by the fact that he gets a couple of journeymen while his competitors got to role with 9 men supersquads.

Valverde has a lot of podiums but I think in many of them he was clearly not the best rider, just rode a strong team / sprint finish to podium spots.

Didn't bother Rui Costa.

Yeah, just six times, pure coincidence...

it's precisely not a coincidence. He's been good enough to come 2nd or 3rd but I don't remember in any of those races coming away with the conclusion that Valverde should have won, or even could have won. And this thread is about winning.

And btw these comments are coming from someone who routinely lauds Valverde as the best all round rider of the modern era.

My impression was that he fluffed 2006. 2013 he was in the driver's seat, but they are not video game characters so perhaps his legs were shot. Otherwise, he seems very pleased to podium, not that that is bad, but ...

And I think in Hamilton he was as strong as Astarloa, they played that tactics because of his sprint and if Astarloa had been caught, he would likely won

 

[WheelofGear]

Re: Re:

Top 5 in my world:

Tour
Giro
Paris-Roubaix
Vuelta
Worlds

In my world : (on a scale of 1-100 where 1 is anatomic jock race and 100 is Tour de France)

1 Tour de France - 100
2 Olympic Road Race - 93
3 Giro d'Italia -90
4 World Road Race -88
5 Vuelta a Espana - 86

6 Paris Roubaix -80
= Ronde - 80
8 Olympic Time Trial - 79
9 Liege - 77
10 World Time Trial -75
11 MSR -74
12 GDL - 72
13 Amstel Gold Race -67
= Fleche Wallone -67
15 Paris Nice-65
= Tirreno Adriatico -65
= Vuelta a Pais Vasco -65
18 Dauphine - 62
19 San Sebastien -61
20 Queen stage of Tour de France -60

Looks good. What's your ranking for Green Jersey, being runner-up in Tour De France and "the fourth Tour", Tour de Suisse?

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

Top 5 in my world:

Tour
Giro
Paris-Roubaix
Vuelta
Worlds

In my world : (on a scale of 1-100 where 1 is anatomic jock race and 100 is Tour de France)

1 Tour de France - 100
2 Olympic Road Race - 93
3 Giro d'Italia -90
4 World Road Race -88
5 Vuelta a Espana - 86

6 Paris Roubaix -80
= Ronde - 80
8 Olympic Time Trial - 79
9 Liege - 77
10 World Time Trial -75
11 MSR -74
12 GDL - 72
13 Amstel Gold Race -67
= Fleche Wallone -67
15 Paris Nice-65
= Tirreno Adriatico -65
= Vuelta a Pais Vasco -65
18 Dauphine - 62
19 San Sebastien -61
20 Queen stage of Tour de France -60

Looks good. What's your ranking for Green Jersey, being runner-up in Tour De France and "the fourth Tour", Tour de Suisse?

I think Hitch would rank Suisse at least on par with P-N. But then, I think it's worth more than a Flèche, at least.

 

[carton]

Torn on this one. On one-day palmares it's got to be de Vlaeminck; on medals, Valverde; on stature, Indurain and Anquetil. Sorry all you Kelly fans out there, but he just misses the cut in that sort.

Maybe my recollection fails me but I don't remember Valverde ever actually being that close. He lost sprints against clearly stronger finishers (Boonen, Bettini, Zabel) and was at or near the top in secondary sprints. Still, 0 for 6 has got to sting. Not as dissimilarly as it would seem, Anquetil only had one close call. And he could comfort himself in his nine Grand Prix des Nations wins.

Indurain does make a strong claim for the top spot because he was so close several times. He was clearly the strongest at Duitama, a course that suited him to a tee, but he played the team role and marked Pantani while Olano attacked and ended up taking the gold. On the flip side, he did win the World and Olympic TT titles, so he's got that going for him, which is nice.

But I think I have to go with de Vlaeminck. Yes, de Vlaeminck did wear a rainbow jersey, just not on the road. But then again Indurain did wear a rainbow jersey on the road, just not in open competition. While de Vlaeminck only medaled once (silver) and wasn't even that close to gold in '75, the man took 292 professional wins including 11 (and all) the monuments. You can make a decent case for him being the best one-day rider in history, It was just his luck that his national team was also stocked with two other all-time greats, Maertens and Merckx. A team was known for some of the nastiest internecine conflicts out of any national squad in memory. He would have been an unchallenged team leader for pretty much any other national team in history, and he'd have a pretty decent shot in any one-day race, against anyone.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

I voted Kelly but I'd add Laurent Fignon into the poll.