Betsy testifies

[ChrisE]

I know we bickered a bit and sort of agreed to disagree earlier in the year, but the fact that you're continuing this crusade indicates that you're feeling personally hurt that the athlete you've been idolizing since his teenage years is largely a fraud.

The rest of us may sway a bit to the "hate Armstrong" side, but I think that's the more reasonable stance these days.

OK, fair enough. You've figured me out.

BTW, your opinion matters so much to me on this subject, or what you think about me in general, that I lose 2 seconds of sleep per night over it. Please back off.

 

[Neworld]

ChrisE,

Could you then specifically state, for the record of this forum, that "you think LA doped from 1999-2005"?

You seem to like to argue details but then do not offer specific statements. Here is your opporunity to set the record straight: your beliefs and LA the doper.

NW

ChrisE,

Still waiting for you to confirm you stance on LA doping from 1999-2005.

A firm yes or no please. You are so articulare and specific this should be of no trouble for you.

NW

 

[ChrisE]

ChrisE,

Still waiting for you to confirm you stance on LA doping from 1999-2005.

A firm yes or no please. You are so articulare and specific this should be of no trouble for you.

NW

I think the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

 

[Tubeless]

I'm waiting for:
Lance is like a box of chocolates- rich and thick.

If they had left Herman in charge, pretty sure that analogy would have slipped off his tongue at some point. But alas, Fabiani hasn't fared all that much better, in our collective view. Retracted slips, attacks on the prosecutor, questions about "wasted taxpayer money", FDA should focus on rotten eggs, not EPO etc. Weak so far.

If we were to give advise to Lance's PR guru, what would that be? Is there anything sensible / credible that he can say to help influence Lance's case given the gravity of the situation?

The oft-discussed method would be for Lance to confess to doping - and say that yes there was doping but no federal crimes were committed, and take the obvious weakness of their case off the table. But you can be sure that's off limits for Fabiani.

So if you were Fabiani, what would you say? Personally, I'd be quiet and try to work this behind the scenes until they know where the investigation is headed.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

ChrisE,

Still waiting for you to confirm you stance on LA doping from 1999-2005.

A firm yes or no please. You are so articulare and specific this should be of no trouble for you.

NW

Why do you care? Seriously. At this point, the people still in Armstrong's corner are either paid to be there or are loathe to suffer the cognitive dissonance required to change their stance.

 

[Benotti69]

Why do you care? Seriously. At this point, the people still in Armstrong's corner are either paid to be there or are loathe to suffer the cognitive dissonance required to change their stance.

yep or benefit in some manner financially from his career!

 

[Berzin]

If we were to give advise to Lance's PR guru, what would that be? Is there anything sensible / credible that he can say to help influence Lance's case given the gravity of the situation?

There hasn't been anything credible or sensible he has said or at this point can say that will improve things. It's difficult to go on a smear campaign when you have no idea who to swing at. Right now the poster boy for the accusations made against Armstrong has been Floyd Landis-a character easy to vilify and dismiss.

The issue is who else have the Feds spoken to and what evidence they have either cooberated or added. So really, there is nothing for anyone in Arsmtrong's camp to say.

The oft-discussed method would be for Lance to confess to doping - and say that yes there was doping but no federal crimes were committed, and take the obvious weakness of their case off the table. But you can be sure that's off limits for Fabiani.

The doping is the smaller issue, but is necessary to prove so that a portrait leading to the bigger issue CAN be painted. Yes, Armstrong can confess to doping, but the money trail is what the Feds are really concerned with.

So if you were Fabiani, what would you say? Personally, I'd be quiet and try to work this behind the scenes until they know where the investigation is headed.

This would be great advice. As of right now, they cannot fight this in the court of public opinion. And they have no control over anything. They have to be reactive and play defense.

 

[ChrisE]

The doping is the smaller issue, but is necessary to prove so that a portrait leading to the bigger issue CAN be painted. Yes, Armstrong can confess to doping, but the money trail is what the Feds are really concerned with.
.

The investigation may be about defrauding the govt. out of money for the team sponsorship by using PEDs to get results. So, him admitting PED use would be a bad thing in that instance.

 

[Barrus]

The investigation may be about defrauding the govt. out of money for the team sponsorship by using PEDs to get results. So, him admitting PED use would be a bad thing in that instance.

Why would it be a bad thing, it would actually be a good thing. Or you mean for Armstrong? For Armstrong there are only two options, confess, work along with Novitzky to try and get bigger fishes, or to deny, deny and deny and hope there is some sort of legal loophole you can get through. I can not see any other option.

If they use this all to try to get him for tampering with witnesses, as one poster proposed, he can be in a lot deeper water than we all already thought

 

[Colm.Murphy]

This would be great advice. As of right now, they cannot fight this in the court of public opinion. And they have no control over anything. They have to be reactive and play defense.

The most prudent thing, legally and publicly, is to say nothing.

Equipping a guy like Landis ,and whoever else is helping him, with ammunition and motivation to keep turning the screws tighter and escalating the warfare to proto-nuclear levels is simply the worst course to take. He has taken and will continue to take a beating as long as he keeps having the Atty Herman's and Spin-Liars like Fabiani churn out garbage.

Regarding the LA Times article covering Betsy Andreau, I find it terribly disturbing that it has since been edited where Fabiani bungles the hospital room sequence. Truly an amateur mistake, getting known and established facts so wrong, but the LA Times should not permit such a revision to that camp. All of their comments should be burnished into the public record with no retractions or corrections.... The stakes are too high.

Being away from the forum for some work and travel the last several weeks has given me time to reflect on where the greatest damage will lie. To me, it will be the damage inflicted on all the very young cancer kids, whose innocence and vulnerability make the thought of these cretin lying and preying on them so vile, so evil, it infuriates me to a distinctly acute level. Who will sit down and explain to these little ones that their yellow-shirted hero is a criminal? Who will tell them his achievements were a lie, cheating on a grand scale?

The govt fraud, who cares. The cheating the other riders, does not equate. The repulsive behavior towards other adults, nothing.

It is the victimization on the emotional level, against those many thousands of kids who know nothing more than Lance the champion, that causes me the most reaction because the hope he'd been selling, the hope he pandered was false. Sure, the cancer funding was real money but kids don't know what that is or how it works. It is the falsity of him as a person they will have to grapple with and that is fundamentally wrong.

Good on you, Betsy. Don't let it consume you but do your best to assist in whatever way you can to bring this to an end.

 

[ChrisE]

Why would it be a bad thing, it would actually be a good thing. Or you mean for Armstrong? For Armstrong there are only two options, confess, work along with Novitzky to try and get bigger fishes, or to deny, deny and deny and hope there is some sort of legal loophole you can get through. I can not see any other option.

If they use this all to try to get him for tampering with witnesses, as one poster proposed, he can be in a lot deeper water than we all already thought

Remember there is debate on whether LA was an "owner" of the team during the USPS years. So, he might be one of those big fish. That is what I am getting at. We also don't know what type of role he played in securing USPS sponsorship. IF the investigation is going in this direction him admitting PED use would seem to me to be a bad thing.

I am not aware of any discussion about him tampering with witnesses in this investigation. There is discussion about if he influenced McIvlane in SCA (I have no idea if he did but it wouldn't surprise me) but I fail to see why that matters in this investigation.

 

[Barrus]

Remember there is debate on whether LA was an "owner" of the team during the USPS years. So, he might be one of those big fish. That is what I am getting at. We also don't know what type of role he played in securing USPS sponsorship. IF the investigation is going in this direction him admitting PED use would seem to me to be a bad thing.

I am not aware of any discussion about him tampering with witnesses in this investigation. There is discussion about if he influenced McIvlane in SCA (I have no idea if he did but it wouldn't surprise me) but I fail to see why that matters in this investigation.

The first: there is a clear indication that Armstrong was at least de facto one of the persons who were in charge of the team, whether legally this was the case or not.

The second, tampering (bribing or blackmailing for example) with witnesses is a VERY serious crime, if Novitzky can get any indication that that happened, Lance will be in very rough weather, and I doubt he could come out of that, if nothing else Novitzky would use it as leverage. But really if anything comes out to that extend, it will be of grave importance in this investigation

 

[ChrisE]

The first: there is a clear indication that Armstrong was at least de facto one of the persons who were in charge of the team, whether legally this was the case or not.

The second, tampering (bribing or blackmailing for example) with witnesses is a VERY serious crime, if Novitzky can get any indication that that happened, Lance will be in very rough weather, and I doubt he could come out of that, if nothing else Novitzky would use it as leverage. But really if anything comes out to that extend, it will be of grave importance in this investigation

First, I am not aware of any 100% proof LA was one of the owners. Yes, LA was one of the persons in charge of the team. But, it is a pretty important point whether he was an owner or not securing sponsorship $ from the govt.. If he was, then why would him admitting PED use help him? He was one of the owners that defrauded the govt., maybe the biggest fish since he was the one actually using the PEDs to defraud.

Secondly, I agree with you and if he is tampering with witnesses in the current investigation he is in trouble. I again ask if this has been discussed here or has he been accused of that. I have not seen it.

 

[Barrus]

Secondly, I agree with you and if he is tampering with witnesses in the current investigation he is in trouble. I again ask if this has been discussed here or has he been accused of that. I have not seen it.

Again it does not matter if it was this case, or the other case involving Betsy's statement. It was the other court case, but if he ensured that someone else perjured herself for him, he will be in deep deep trouble

 

[SpeedWay]

BTW, if you think justice in America always falls on the side of truth then I have some beachfront property in Montana to sell you.

Not another one that thinks OJ, among many others, might have been guilty. If you have any beach front lots on Seeley Lake I'd be interested.

 

[thehog]

The most prudent thing, legally and publicly, is to say nothing.

Equipping a guy like Landis ,and whoever else is helping him, with ammunition and motivation to keep turning the screws tighter and escalating the warfare to proto-nuclear levels is simply the worst course to take. He has taken and will continue to take a beating as long as he keeps having the Atty Herman's and Spin-Liars like Fabiani churn out garbage.

Regarding the LA Times article covering Betsy Andreau, I find it terribly disturbing that it has since been edited where Fabiani bungles the hospital room sequence. Truly an amateur mistake, getting known and established facts so wrong, but the LA Times should not permit such a revision to that camp. All of their comments should be burnished into the public record with no retractions or corrections.... The stakes are too high.

Being away from the forum for some work and travel the last several weeks has given me time to reflect on where the greatest damage will lie. To me, it will be the damage inflicted on all the very young cancer kids, whose innocence and vulnerability make the thought of these cretin lying and preying on them so vile, so evil, it infuriates me to a distinctly acute level. Who will sit down and explain to these little ones that their yellow-shirted hero is a criminal? Who will tell them his achievements were a lie, cheating on a grand scale?

The govt fraud, who cares. The cheating the other riders, does not equate. The repulsive behavior towards other adults, nothing.

It is the victimization on the emotional level, against those many thousands of kids who know nothing more than Lance the champion, that causes me the most reaction because the hope he'd been selling, the hope he pandered was false. Sure, the cancer funding was real money but kids don't know what that is or how it works. It is the falsity of him as a person they will have to grapple with and that is fundamentally wrong.

Good on you, Betsy. Don't let it consume you but do your best to assist in whatever way you can to bring this to an end.

My information is telling me of a deal being done. Admission of mild doping guilt and other charges will be lessened. Lets see what comes. Otherwise its cuffs and chains.

 

[Barrus]

My information is telling me of a deal being done. Admission of mild doping guilt and other charges will be lessened. Lets see what comes. Otherwise its cuffs and chains.

This would be the logical thing to do from both sides. Use Lance to get to the higher ups. The question is whether Lance would go for it, as it could potentially ruin him

 

[flicker]

Why do you care? Seriously. At this point, the people still in Armstrong's corner are either paid to be there or are loathe to suffer the cognitive dissonance required to change their stance.

I am fair objective honest and I believe in Lance. Anyone with their heads on square on their shoulders would.

 

[flicker]

The most prudent thing, legally and publicly, is to say nothing.

Equipping a guy like Landis ,and whoever else is helping him, with ammunition and motivation to keep turning the screws tighter and escalating the warfare to proto-nuclear levels is simply the worst course to take. He has taken and will continue to take a beating as long as he keeps having the Atty Herman's and Spin-Liars like Fabiani churn out garbage.

Regarding the LA Times article covering Betsy Andreau, I find it terribly disturbing that it has since been edited where Fabiani bungles the hospital room sequence. Truly an amateur mistake, getting known and established facts so wrong, but the LA Times should not permit such a revision to that camp. All of their comments should be burnished into the public record with no retractions or corrections.... The stakes are too high.

Being away from the forum for some work and travel the last several weeks has given me time to reflect on where the greatest damage will lie. To me, it will be the damage inflicted on all the very young cancer kids, whose innocence and vulnerability make the thought of these cretin lying and preying on them so vile, so evil, it infuriates me to a distinctly acute level. Who will sit down and explain to these little ones that their yellow-shirted hero is a criminal? Who will tell them his achievements were a lie, cheating on a grand scale?

The govt fraud, who cares. The cheating the other riders, does not equate. The repulsive behavior towards other adults, nothing.

It is the victimization on the emotional level, against those many thousands of kids who know nothing more than Lance the champion, that causes me the most reaction because the hope he'd been selling, the hope he pandered was false. Sure, the cancer funding was real money but kids don't know what that is or how it works. It is the falsity of him as a person they will have to grapple with and that is fundamentally wrong.

Good on you, Betsy. Don't let it consume you but do your best to assist in whatever way you can to bring this to an end.

You probably know better than me but I would guess juvenile cancer patients are more concerned with the state of their health/fear of the unknown than what us bike geeks think is important LANCELANCELANCE etc.about all the things you have mentioned. Just a thought, like I said you probably know kids with cancer better than I....

 

[D Avoid]

Anyone have a list of whom else may have/ did committ perjury in the SCA case to try and protect the one nut wonder?

He had another one, but they couldn't get it on, you're being hard-on him.

 

[Benotti69]

I am fair objective honest and I believe in Lance. Anyone with their heads on square on their shoulders would.

it just so happens fanboys have their heads square on their shoulders but backwards

 

[Benotti69]

This would be the logical thing to do from both sides. Use Lance to get to the higher ups. The question is whether Lance would go for it, as it could potentially ruin him

It depends if he cuts all ties with the all or some of the big fish and batons down the hatches. He and Weisel might sell out everyone else to save their skins and if he is negotiating i imagine that is what he is doing. So it will be interesting to see who gets landed and who swims away. But the landed fish might have a thing or a million to say about the Uniballer. It aint over by a long stretch.

 

[flicker]

It depends if he cuts all ties with the all or some of the big fish and batons down the hatches. He and Weisel might sell out everyone else to save their skins and if he is negotiating i imagine that is what he is doing. So it will be interesting to see who gets landed and who swims away. But the landed fish might have a thing or a million to say about the Uniballer. It aint over by a long stretch.

Such a complex issue. I really see the analogies with white water, and clinton Monika. You saw Hillary and Bill walk in Whitewater. Their Real Estate deals stole the life savings of retirees. On these high profile trials I would think everyone would want to protect the higher ups, to avoid greater scandal. As much as the fan-boys and I would like to see justice I see a skewed outcome with the responsable ones walking away. I agree with Alpe on who the responsable ones are. I think they will walk away clean thus a waste of the taxpayers money, a black eye for US cycling and a still sullied sport. I am not like LeMond I could give a hoot about what happens with Armstrong. I really find him to be the small fish in all this.

 

[flicker]

If you want justice in this follow the money trail first, then the athletes then the drugs. Any other schedule is a waste of our tax dollars.

 

[Benotti69]

Such a complex issue. I really see the analogies with white water, and clinton Monika. You saw Hillary and Bill walk in Whitewater. Their Real Estate deals stole the life savings of retirees. On these high profile trials I would think everyone would want to protect the higher ups, to avoid greater scandal. As much as the fan-boys and I would like to see justice I see a skewed outcome with the responsable ones walking away. I agree with Alpe on who the responsable ones are. I think they will walk away clean thus a waste of the taxpayers money, a black eye for US cycling and a still sullied sport. I am not like LeMond I could give a hoot about what happens with Armstrong. I really find him to be the small fish in all this.

small fish dont cheat their way to 7 TdFs, fly around the world in their own private jet, head a consortium attempting to buy the TdF, bribe UCI, have millions of dollars in the bank (probably again in Switzerland).....wrong again flicker

If you want justice in this follow the money trail first, then the athletes then the drugs. Any other schedule is a waste of our tax dollars.

yeah i agree, LA is part of the money trail with Weisel, an athlete (now retired)and drug dealer to his team along with JB.