Bjarne Riis, saved by silence?

[Cimber]

But Fuentes is facing a prisone sentence, where Hamilton was one of the key witnesses against him. Of course he has every reason to make Hamilton seem like a liar.

But remember that Fuentes' trial has nothing to do with doping as such (well not in the conventional way anyway), and hence admitting any relationship to Riis wouldnt harm him at all. This trial is about wether he endagered the athlete's health. As far as I can understand he doesnt deny doping his clients, but his defense is that he did not endanger their health in any way. I.e. he could readily sell-out Riis without hurting himself.

 

[Lanark]

But remember that Fuentes' trial has nothing to do with doping as such (well not in the conventional way anyway), and hence admitting any relationship to Riis wouldnt harm him at all. This trial is about wether he endagered the athlete's health. As far as I can understand he doesnt deny doping his clients, but his defense is that he did not endanger their health in any way. I.e. he could readily sell-out Riis without hurting himself.

I'm well aware. But Hamilton's confession could help in establishing that Fuentes harmed his clients health (your urine turning black isn't often a good sign ). Now the Riis thing isn't directly connected to it, but it puts Fuentes in a tough spot. Yes, he can say 'what Hamilton told about Riis is completely correct, he just made up all the other stuff'. Or, as he is doing now, Fuentes can try to make Hamilton look like some habitual liar.

Once you acknowledge that a whistleblower like Hamilton revealed some previously unkown facts, it becomes less plausable that some other parts of his testimony are made up. So Fuentes may not lie to do Riis a favor, but it's certainly in his best interest to deny as much of what Hamilton is saying.

 

[del1962]

From the telegraph on Tylers Testimony report 19th February

The court was told that a Team CSC attache, the former mountain bike rider Alberto Leon who took his own life two years ago, performed the potentially life-threatening transfusion in 2002 when the usual blood doctor, Fuentes, was unavailable.

This is probably one of the most crucial pieces of Testimony from Tyler against Fuentes, now if you wan't to discredit this (which might be the thing that puts you in jail), discredit Hamilton as best you can, hence deny what he said about Riis.

Hamilton, Riis and Fuentes all have a history of not telling the truth, so you have to make a judgement, and having seen the path Hamilton has travelled to me he is the most credible of the 3 and the one least likely to hold the Omerta.

 

[Cimber]

I'm well aware. But Hamilton's confession could help in establishing that Fuentes harmed his clients health (your urine turning black isn't often a good sign ). Now the Riis thing isn't directly connected to it, but it puts Fuentes in a tough spot. Yes, he can say 'what Hamilton told about Riis is completely correct, he just made up all the other stuff'. Or, as he is doing now, Fuentes can try to make Hamilton look like some habitual liar.

Once you acknowledge that a whistleblower like Hamilton revealed some previously unkown facts, it becomes less plausable that some other parts of his testimony are made up. So Fuentes may not lie to do Riis a favor, but it's certainly in his best interest to deny as much of what Hamilton is saying.

Well, imo that might be a tad far-fetched. I mean if that was his strategy thay could very well backfire. It could very well display himself as a liar, if suddenly other riders connect Riis with Fuentes og other evidence linking Riis with Fuentes came up. It that regard it would imo be better to stick to the truth about clients etc (which Fuentes also seem to readily talk about) but rather focus his arguments about the safety (fx that Hamilton didnt do as he had advised, hence it was his own neglicense that endangered him etc).

Also the statement about Riis was not made in court but rather to a journalist outside of court.

But you might be right that he is lying, and Hamilton is right, but Fuentes statement is a help for Riis and it does to some extent damage Hamiltons credibility (later evidence might revert that of course)

 

[Cimber]

From the telegraph on Tylers Testimony report 19th February



This is probably one of the most crucial pieces of Testimony from Tyler against Fuentes, now if you wan't to discredit this (which might be the thing that puts you in jail), discredit Hamilton as best you can, hence deny what he said about Riis.

Hamilton, Riis and Fuentes all have a history of not telling the truth, so you have to make a judgement, and having seen the path Hamilton has travelled to me he is the most credible of the 3 and the one least likely to hold the Omerta.

In that case he should have made the statement about Riis and Hamilton in court, which he didnt. Also as said this could really backfire big time if other evidence suddely proves/sugegst that Riis and Fuentes did work together. Imo it would be wiser to argue that the rider didnt follow his medical advice, and thereby endangered himself (much like doctors can be held responsible if patients overdose their medicine etc).

I am no legal expert, but it does seem a bit far-fetched and dangerous (from Fuentes POV) to miscredit Hamilton that way.

But as I said, both Hamilton, Fuentes and also Riis have a low credibility imo. But of course Fuentes statement, for the time being at least, benifits Riis.

For me personally, I dont doubt that Riis was/is a shady person - also as team owner. So u dont have to pursuade me. But he is like teflon and Fuentes statement does help him slip out of the net again.

 

[Benotti69]

Imo both have equally low amount of credibility. But one point is that Fuentes has no obvious reason to lie about Riis (other than saving Riis's a$$) whereas Hamilton does have reasons to lie (commercial reasons and revenge on the sport).

That said, I am not able to judge wether Fuentes, Hamilton or neitehr of them are telling the truth about this. I dont really find either credible. Sometimes it disgusts me how much credibility this forum gives Hamilton. I think he does tell the truth to an extend, but I do also think that asa notorious liar he has spiced up certain parts.

That said, I dont think Riis is/was a "clean team owner", but wether he had anything to do with Fuentes I dont know. I assume he would be smart enough to not be seen with him or other doping doctors but maybe simply hinting who the riders could turn to etc.

In any case, Fuentes statement is a big help for Riis in this matter. It is gonna be interesting to find out if Rasmussen has said interesting thing about Riis though.

Fuentes has lots of reasons to lie about Riis. He is probably still Fuentes client and still sending riders to him. There is also the future income from riders that Fuentes is trying to protect.

Fuentes has not thrown anyone under the bus yet. Wait till things get hot for him, he will start with the non Spanish, then the Spanish and hope that the ensuing possible scandal will mean he gets off or a very light sentence.

 

[Cimber]

Fuentes has lots of reasons to lie about Riis. He is probably still Fuentes client and still sending riders to him. There is also the future income from riders that Fuentes is trying to protect.

Fuentes has not thrown anyone under the bus yet. Wait till things get hot for him, he will start with the non Spanish, then the Spanish and hope that the ensuing possible scandal will mean he gets off or a very light sentence.

I seriously doubt that Riis or any other sane person would risk working with Funtes (on doping matters) ever again. Maybe a guy like Ricco would.

Also as you say, he has said that he will readily talk about all of his clients, which means that lying about Riis now and then reverting that later on would seriously backfire regarding his credibility

 

[hrotha]

I seriously doubt that Riis or any other sane person would risk working with Funtes (on doping matters) ever again. Maybe a guy like Ricco would.

Operación Galgo was empirical proof that you're wrong.

 

[Race Radio]

Fuentes has lots of reasons to lie about Riis.

Agreed. Many of Fuentes' top clients were on Riis' team. The idea he did not know him is silly. Fuentes has spent the last 6 years lying about his operation and being almost bi-polar about it's reach. One day he brags about bring down all sport the next he pretends he was doing nothing. Pretending he did not know the boss of his biggest clients is just another attempt to play down his reach as the heat gets hot

 

[xrayvision]

You are a fan?

Riis admitted he doped to win the TdF. That in my mind is enough to throw him out of the sport. So he doped to win in 1996 and only admitted it 11 years later when a book came out about T-Mobile.

He had been a DS for for 8 years before admitting his doping.

Yeah Riis is part of the cleanER (not) cycling that started in 2006, a full 20 years after he won the TdF on buckets of EPO.

Riis is another part of the massive widescale doping problem in cycling.

Fuentes has not thrown anyone under the bus.........yet. Patience.

Im danish, but not a fan, just sticking to the facts that are proven, and keeps a healthy and critical approach to to what is not. In my opinion you still can´t rule out the possibility that Tyler has his own agenda, and maybe not every word he have stated is the full truth, or maybe just lack of memory, if I recall he made several statements to the press that were contradictory, so I keep my options open.

And why should anybody who question your own believe be a fan?
This is exactly the common view to anybody who dare to put question marks to Tyler and his confession, and to be honest its both judgmental and pathetic.

Atleast Riis did come forward with a confession, not that Im saying it has been to any help in the fight against doping, course it hasent, but if Riis needs to get out of cycling, you just as well throw out every single DS, manager and rider from the same era, course NOBODY were more clean than the next guy, except perhaps from LA who juiced up more than half the peloton together.

And I think its logic that Riis havent been able to come forward as a team manager, simply becaurse it would destroy the team, and he would stand alone as a scape goat, it was an omerta, nobody talked, especially not 8 years ago, so blaming him for this today dont really make sense, none other DS today did it then either.

And Im not so sure the team are juicing up today, surely the results suggest otherwise.
Is my opinion, and have nothing to do being biased or a fan.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

From the telegraph on Tylers Testimony report 19th February

The court was told that a Team CSC attache, the former mountain bike rider Alberto Leon who took his own life two years ago, performed the potentially life-threatening transfusion in 2002 when the usual blood doctor, Fuentes, was unavailable.

This is probably one of the most crucial pieces of Testimony from Tyler against Fuentes, now if you wan't to discredit this (which might be the thing that puts you in jail), discredit Hamilton as best you can, hence deny what he said about Riis.

Hamilton, Riis and Fuentes all have a history of not telling the truth, so you have to make a judgement, and having seen the path Hamilton has travelled to me he is the most credible of the 3 and the one least likely to hold the Omerta.

And yet, six days earlier, the very same reporter, in the very same paper, described Alberto Leon as a "carrier peigeon" for a rider on Kelme... Not so much a 'CSC attache', but rather a free agent working for Fuentes, and as such illustrating yet another elaboration by the 'poor victim'...

 

[xrayvision]

Agreed. Many of Fuentes' top clients were on Riis' team. The idea he did not know him is silly. Fuentes has spent the last 6 years lying about his operation and being almost bi-polar about it's reach. One day he brags about bring down all sport the next he pretends he was doing nothing. Pretending he did not know the boss of his biggest clients is just another attempt to play down his reach as the heat gets hot

Top Clients?

Valverde, Devolder, Ricco, Pantani, LA, Landis, Ulrich, Zuelle, Virenque etc etc. I think are all bigger names and clients than anybody Riis had on his team, just because you don't like the guy don't mean exaggeration makes a more truthfull point, nobody have prove of their relationship (yet).

 

[hrotha]

Top Clients?

Valverde, Devolder, Ricco, Pantani, LA, Landis, Ulrich, Zuelle, Virenque etc etc. I think are all bigger names and clients than anybody Riis had on his team, just because you don't like the guy don't mean exaggeration makes a more truthfull point, nobody have prove of their relationship (yet).

Basso? Hamilton? Not big enough for you? Puh-lease.

 

[Netserk]

Top Clients?

Valverde, Devolder, Ricco, Pantani, LA, Landis, Ulrich, Zuelle, Virenque etc etc. I think are all bigger names and clients than anybody Riis had on his team, just because you don't like the guy don't mean exaggeration makes a more truthfull point, nobody have prove of their relationship (yet).

LA was a Fuentes client?

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Basso? Hamilton? Not big enough for you? Puh-lease.

You mean Basso 'I'm leaving to join Lance's team please don't tell Bjarne' and Hamilton 'I just left Lance's team and have doped my entire career please don't tell Bjarne'

 

[xrayvision]

Basso? Hamilton? Not big enough for you? Puh-lease.

is my point, 2 riders, thats many of Fuentes top clients?
Puh-lease.

 

[xrayvision]

LA was a Fuentes client?

Ask Fuentes, but why not, seems the clinic in general have the opinion Fuentes had everybody as clients, Riis included, even its not been proven yet. So why not, its just as a legit statement as saying Riis were a client.

 

[xrayvision]

You mean Basso 'I'm leaving to join Lance's team please don't tell Bjarne' and Hamilton 'I just left Lance's team and have doped my entire career please don't tell Bjarne'

I dont think anybody is suggesting that Riis were not aware of doping on the team. That would be pretty stupid.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And yet, six days earlier, the very same reporter, in the very same paper, described Alberto Leon as a "carrier peigeon" for a rider on Kelme... Not so much a 'CSC attache', but rather a free agent working for Fuentes, and as such illustrating yet another elaboration by the 'poor victim'...

You have yet again repeated this "poor victim" point.
Can you show exactly where Hamilton has portrayed himself as some poor victim since his confession? Because he states quite the opposite in his book.

Im danish, but not a fan, just sticking to the facts that are proven, and keeps a healthy and critical approach to to what is not. In my opinion you still can´t rule out the possibility that Tyler has his own agenda, and maybe not every word he have stated is the full truth, or maybe just lack of memory, if I recall he made several statements to the press that were contradictory, so I keep my options open.

And why should anybody who question your own believe be a fan?
This is exactly the common view to anybody who dare to put question marks to Tyler and his confession, and to be honest its both judgmental and pathetic.

Atleast Riis did come forward with a confession, not that Im saying it has been to any help in the fight against doping, course it hasent, but if Riis needs to get out of cycling, you just as well throw out every single DS, manager and rider from the same era, course NOBODY were more clean than the next guy, except perhaps from LA who juiced up more than half the peloton together.

And I think its logic that Riis havent been able to come forward as a team manager, simply becaurse it would destroy the team, and he would stand alone as a scape goat, it was an omerta, nobody talked, especially not 8 years ago, so blaming him for this today dont really make sense, none other DS today did it then either.

And Im not so sure the team are juicing up today, surely the results suggest otherwise.
Is my opinion, and have nothing to do being biased or a fan.

The highlighted would be noble except that you want to take the words of Fuentes and Riis as "proof" of something.

Do you believe that Riis runs (and has always run) a clean team, simple yes or no is fine.

 

[blackcat]

I dont think anybody is suggesting that Riis were not aware of doping on the team. That would be pretty stupid.

riis had flown down with frank schleck and two of his other riders in the off-season to set-up the blood doping program.

come on.


memory folks, memory

 

[Benotti69]

Im danish, but not a fan, just sticking to the facts that are proven, and keeps a healthy and critical approach to to what is not. In my opinion you still can´t rule out the possibility that Tyler has his own agenda, and maybe not every word he have stated is the full truth, or maybe just lack of memory, if I recall he made several statements to the press that were contradictory, so I keep my options open.

And why should anybody who question your own believe be a fan?
This is exactly the common view to anybody who dare to put question marks to Tyler and his confession, and to be honest its both judgmental and pathetic.

Atleast Riis did come forward with a confession, not that Im saying it has been to any help in the fight against doping, course it hasent, but if Riis needs to get out of cycling, you just as well throw out every single DS, manager and rider from the same era, course NOBODY were more clean than the next guy, except perhaps from LA who juiced up more than half the peloton together.

And I think its logic that Riis havent been able to come forward as a team manager, simply becaurse it would destroy the team, and he would stand alone as a scape goat, it was an omerta, nobody talked, especially not 8 years ago, so blaming him for this today dont really make sense, none other DS today did it then either.

And Im not so sure the team are juicing up today, surely the results suggest otherwise.
Is my opinion, and have nothing to do being biased or a fan.

Nothing in this sport has shown that the old ways have been discarded.

Results show exactly what? That epo use is less than what it was a few years ago? So that they still dope is not acceptable.

Why believe Riis?

Hamilton has regained his credibilty. If you doubt Hamilton's cred, then doubt others who have doped and lied. Like Riis who is still in the sport.

I recall Riis not wanting to give back his Mailliot Juane, showing he was truly sorry for doping and cheating.

 

[blackcat]

father barnie

saved by the silence

sounds like a catholics motto

 

[Le Baroudeur]

You have yet again repeated this "poor victim" point.
Can you show exactly where Hamilton has portrayed himself as some poor victim since his confession? Because he states quite the opposite in his book.

Why the post confession qualifier? Is this some kind of absolution? All previous charachter traits purged?

A mentor now but not a mentor before?

Many disagree with your assesment of his book.

1000days

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why the post confession qualifier? Is this some kind of absolution? All previous charachter traits purged?

A mentor now but not a mentor before?

Many disagree with your assesment of his book.

1000days

Not much point in asking if he feels he was some sort of victim when he was actively denying his PED use.

When you say many disagree with my assessment (even though I didn't give one) how many, who are they and why would it matter?
Rather than throwing up unsubstantiated babble why not actually state your position clearly. Which parts do you believe are untrue in his book?

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Nothing in this sport has shown that the old ways have been discarded.

Results show exactly what? That epo use is less than what it was a few years ago? So that they still dope is not acceptable.

Why believe Riis?

Hamilton has regained his credibilty. If you doubt Hamilton's cred, then doubt others who have doped and lied. Like Riis who is still in the sport.

Can I borrow the bolded part for my stand-up routine please?

I recall Riis not wanting to give back his Mailliot Juane, showing he was truly sorry for doping and cheating.

Really?

“My jersey is at home in a cardboard box,” said Riis, now manager of the Danish team CSC. “They are welcome to come and get it. I have my memories for myself.”