Bolt: 9:58 Now that`s fast.

[blackcat]

the times boy, its the times. simple as that

an 18 yo women will not have shoulders like that AND run so fast. There is something up, she may well have a mutation. It may not be a hermaphrodie ambiguous chromosones, she just may have a mutation that is excreting hormones on a male level. Very impressive physique for a man, let alone an 18 yo woman.

I feel sorry for her, she has had her sexuality in question on the biggest scale on earth. That could well have grave psychological ramifications.

 

[usedtobefast]

an 18 yo women will not have shoulders like that AND run so fast. There is something up, she may well have a mutation. It may not be a hermaphrodie ambiguous chromosones, she just may have a mutation that is excreting hormones on a male level. Very impressive physique for a man, let alone an 18 yo woman.

I feel sorry for her, she has had her sexuality in question on the biggest scale on earth. That could well have grave psychological ramifications.

she is very "manly" and the Jamaican team is well "fast". i too feel bad for
her. you would hope the Jamaican team is not the new East Germany.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

an 18 yo women will not have shoulders like that AND run so fast. There is something up, she may well have a mutation. It may not be a hermaphrodie ambiguous chromosones, she just may have a mutation that is excreting hormones on a male level. Very impressive physique for a man, let alone an 18 yo woman.

I feel sorry for her, she has had her sexuality in question on the biggest scale on earth. That could well have grave psychological ramifications.

Thats why i excluded that "Woman" from South-Africa. I really meant the Jamaican-Runners and those from the US. Its all over GDR again. When i was in the stadium seeing the 1st Round-and 2nd Round Heats, there was some REAL Woman running. Pretty fast at around 11,5. It all stopped from the Quarter-Finals. From that on i only saw Men competing in Woman-Sprints. I am still laughing.

One big exception here. The winner of 200m today, Allyson Felix. Small, thin, with a womans body, pretty fast, very young and already 3 times Champ. That was nature and elegance. Last seen in the mid 80s (Evelyn Ashford).

Without drugs, may she would dominate the field for the next 10 years like once Carl Lewis

 

[Skip Madness]

Thats why i excluded that "Woman" from South-Africa. I really meant the Jamaican-Runners and those from the US. Its all over GDR again. When i was in the stadium seeing the 1st Round-and 2nd Round Heats, there was some REAL Woman running. Pretty fast at around 11,5. It all stopped from the Quarter-Finals. From that on i only saw Men competing in Woman-Sprints. I am still laughing.

So 11.5 seconds is - roughly - the limit of female performance in the 100m sprint?

One big exception here. The winner of 200m today, Allyson Felix. Small, thin, with a womans body, pretty fast, very young and already 3 times Champ. That was nature and elegance. Last seen in the mid 80s (Evelyn Ashford).

What the hell has small and thin got to do with "a woman's body"?

 

[scribe]

What the hell has small and thin got to do with "a woman's body"?

I took an aesthetics philosophy class in college that would have blown your mind.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So 11.5 seconds is - roughly - the limit of female performance in the 100m sprint?

What the hell has small and thin got to do with "a woman's body"?

1.) Do i know 11,5 is the limit? No, because you would never get a honest answer from those "woman" sprinters if they are on drugs or not. So i have to guess here of course. But it seems like 11,5 is a fair bet, if i calculate everything i heard, saw and read about doping for 25 years now.

2.) Because i dont know the english word for taille, which i last saw on Evelyn Ashford. So i tried to describe the word.

 

[Skip Madness]

1.) Do i know 11,5 is the limit? No, because you would never get a honest answer from those "woman" sprinters if they are on drugs or not. So i have to guess here of course. But it seems like 11,5 is a fair bet, if i calculate everything i heard, saw and read about doping for 25 years now.

So the answer is, "I don't know." You continued insistence on putting the word "women" in inverted commas is incredibly derogatory.

2.) Because i dont know the english word for taille, which i last saw on Evelyn Ashford. So i tried to describe the word.

This isn't what I meant - I was asking why being small and thin (or "built like Evelyn Ashford") in any way denotes femininity, or is in any way more feminine than having more pronounced muscles.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So the answer is, "I don't know." You continued insistence on putting the word "women" in inverted commas is incredibly derogatory.

This isn't what I meant - I was asking why being small and thin (or "built like Evelyn Ashford") in any way denotes femininity, or is in any way more feminine than having more pronounced muscles.

So you want the exact limit? It is 11,3874 for Women and 9,978 for Men.

Doping is much more derogatory. Both to the athletes and the audience !!

If you believe all those crazy times are real, then i wonder what you do in the clinic. For Fanboys and Dreamers, there is the other forums.

 

[Oldman]

So 11.5 seconds is - roughly - the limit of female performance in the 100m sprint?

What the hell has small and thin got to do with "a woman's body"?

You are also discounting the nature of Caribean populations. Most cultures were "imported" from Africa 200 years ago. Specific villages and tribes located on specific islands. Not to get into a discussion of historic racial features but some slaves were imported for labor and others for less demanding work. It is not uncommon for a genetic trait to exist that specifically, even in younger people. To suggest that a well-defined individual is a product of a doping regime without knowing heritage and immediate family traits based solely on appearance is lazy.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Bolt is a drugged out freak and so was everyone else in that race.

look at swimming, last year without those bouyancy suits, 108 world records were broken. That seems far too many to be beliveable. From what i've heard, swimming's drug testing is un strict and easy to get past. Also i heard that in swimming they only test for a small amount of drugs compared to cycling. Everyone in the australian media seems to be oblivious to that but they'll all criticise cyclists as cheats when a positive dope test comes out. i am saying this from an australian's point of view which is a major swimming country and i think that the athletes aren't being tested hard enough.

 

[_frost]

If you believe all those crazy times are real, then i wonder what you do in the clinic. For Fanboys and Dreamers, there is the other forums.

So you may participate the discussion in 'Clinic' only if you are crying that everyone is doping? And the valid arguments are:
- winning/better than others
- has improved performance
- breaths through nose (this is definately my favourite)
- looks like that
- looks ugly
- just don't like the guy/girl
- I just happen to think so (and repeat the mantra until in becomes the truth)

 

[Skip Madness]

So you want the exact limit? It is 11,3874 for Women and 9,978 for Men.

I want something more substantial than, "because I say so."

Doping is much more derogatory. Both to the athletes and the audience !!

If you believe all those crazy times are real, then i wonder what you do in the clinic. For Fanboys and Dreamers, there is the other forums.

I don't necessarily believe that all of the fast (or even slow) times we see are for real. With someone like Shelly-Ann Fraser, as I understand it her personal best increased by more than half a second from one season to the next, and if you discount the times of Florence Griffith-Joyner and Marion Jones (which it's reasonable to do) then she is the fastest 100m runner ever. That is grounds for skepticism, I think. It's not actual evidence of anything, but it is worth raising the eyebrows to.

But you insist on making an issue out of their gender, telling us what a "woman's body" has to look like and referring to anyone you suspect of doping as "men". Even if - if - someone like Shelly-Ann Fraser were doping, it wouldn't make her a man, or a "woman" - it would make her a woman who doped.

 

[danielf]

As you saw in my post, i made a difference between light Doping then (ephidrine etc.) and the way it is heavy now. I didnt say Lewis was clean.

Just look at Greene, Griffith-Joyner, Gatlin, Montgomery etc. etc. How long did they last? Those heavy doping nowadays dont allow long careers.

Yeah but if you look at the career path of Maurice Greene, Tim Montgomery, Justin Gatlin, even someone like Kim Collins who hasn't been caught doping, they all have a similar late-developing pattern. This has been highlighted as a way to see that they could be doping, as it is suspicious. Of course we have to be skeptical about what we see, but Bolt's career has none of the characteristics of those other guys careers. He was sensational as a youth, and has caried that over into a senior. Whenever I have heard him talk about doping he has seemed to be genuinely against it and pro-testing, quite different to the attitudes of LA, AC and many in the peloton. Just because somebody posts a quick time or is at the height of their sport, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that they are for sure taking drugs.

 

[Anonymous]

look at swimming, last year without those bouyancy suits, 108 world records were broken. That seems far too many to be beliveable. From what i've heard, swimming's drug testing is un strict and easy to get past. Also i heard that in swimming they only test for a small amount of drugs compared to cycling. Everyone in the australian media seems to be oblivious to that but they'll all criticise cyclists as cheats when a positive dope test comes out. i am saying this from an australian's point of view which is a major swimming country and i think that the athletes aren't being tested hard enough.

Absolutely. Look at Phelps' freaking jaw SOMETIMES and tell me the HGH thing doesn't seem obvious.

It isn't just that the records are dropping, they are being SMASHED in the pool and on the track. Makes me sick to watch.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah but if you look at the career path of Maurice Greene, Tim Montgomery, Justin Gatlin, even someone like Kim Collins who hasn't been caught doping, they all have a similar late-developing pattern. This has been highlighted as a way to see that they could be doping, as it is suspicious. Of course we have to be skeptical about what we see, but Bolt's career has none of the characteristics of those other guys careers. He was sensational as a youth, and has caried that over into a senior. Whenever I have heard him talk about doping he has seemed to be genuinely against it and pro-testing, quite different to the attitudes of LA, AC and many in the peloton. Just because somebody posts a quick time or is at the height of their sport, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that they are for sure taking drugs.

There appears to be some moisture behind your Helix...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Here's an interesting angle. When the DDR was doing youthful testing in women, one of the things they did was look for extra chromosomes in some of the female athletes. Both as an XXX and with an XXY (Klinefelter's Syndrome), that were female, but with masculine elements, and were not deformed, plus also had things like longer limbs than normal, more natural webbing in feet than normal, larger hearts and lungs than normal, etc. Then they would develop them, and then dope them. Faust's Gold is a dry read, but exposes a lot, courtesy of our friend Werner Franke.

The Soviet Union, and Chinese have been accused of such things. Probably the USA and other western countries as well in some circles.

 

[Fatclimber]

Sour grapes

Americans are just mad that they don't dominate the sprinting scene anymore. Jamaican coaches are by far the best and most knowledgable in the world, and they are all required to pass a rigorous test of integrity before they become a certified coach. Sprinting is their contries' most coveted sport, there's no way any of their coaches would allow some such nonsense like doping to occur. It is not worth the risk. I know, I have looked them in the eyes. Jamaican coaches also have their athletes do a lot of core work, all it takes is one look at the rest of the field to know that they do none.

Everybody that's hating up on Bolts obviously didn't watch the race. He's just a smart racer, that's all. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when there's a crosswind you have to run at the front! The rest of the idiots just got caught out.

 

[LastRide]

Here's an interesting angle. When the DDR was doing youthful testing in women, one of the things they did was look for extra chromosomes in some of the female athletes. Both as an XXX and with an XXY (Klinefelter's Syndrome), that were female, but with masculine elements, and were not deformed, plus also had things like longer limbs than normal, more natural webbing in feet than normal, larger hearts and lungs than normal, etc. Then they would develop them, and then dope them. Faust's Gold is a dry read, but exposes a lot, courtesy of our friend Werner Franke.

The Soviet Union, and Chinese have been accused of such things. Probably the USA and other western countries as well in some circles.

Yes, ever hear of "Stella the Fella"?

Quite interesting..

http://www.answers.com/topic/stella-walsh

 

[Ferminal]

I want something more substantial than, "because I say so."

I don't necessarily believe that all of the fast (or even slow) times we see are for real. With someone like Shelly-Ann Fraser, as I understand it her personal best increased by more than half a second from one season to the next, and if you discount the times of Florence Griffith-Joyner and Marion Jones (which it's reasonable to do) then she is the fastest 100m runner ever. That is grounds for skepticism, I think. It's not actual evidence of anything, but it is worth raising the eyebrows to.

But you insist on making an issue out of their gender, telling us what a "woman's body" has to look like and referring to anyone you suspect of doping as "men". Even if - if - someone like Shelly-Ann Fraser were doping, it wouldn't make her a man, or a "woman" - it would make her a woman who doped.

Did either ever test positive?

There would be more than questions asked when someone beats those times (especially the WR) but some how beating Ben Johnson is expected.

 

[Skip Madness]

Did either ever test positive?

To my knowledge Jones didn't (well, I seem to recall some confusion about her having a positive A-sample and a negative B-sample once), but we know she used drugs.

Griffith-Joyner never tested positive, but Darrell Robinson claimed to have supplied her with human growth hormone (although it was never proved), and epilepsy doctors said that epilepsy as a cause of her death was extremely unlikely (although not impossible). Also bear in mind that her massive increases in personal bests came not in her earlier years (as is the case for Shelly-Ann Fraser and Usain Bolt) but at the age of 29. It's not cast-iron evidence, but I'd say that belief in her being drug-assisted can be described as reasonable. On the other hand, the famous time of 10.49 was believed to have been almost-certainly wind-assisted, which unfairly exaggerates the improvement in her performances. There are a lot of caveats in that paragraph.

There would be more than questions asked when someone beats those times (especially the WR) but some how beating Ben Johnson is expected.

That's an excellent point. But it's not entirely analogous, I think. If we were to see a woman with the same physical characteristics as Usain Bolt tearing up the record books, it would be less suspicious than someone like one of the present crop of sprinters suddenly running sub-10.6. (Funnily enough, I actually find the times of Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell a little more suspicious than those of Bolt, although there's no basis to that other than my instincts since Bolt appears to be a physical freak.) There is definitely something in what you're saying, though.

 

[ggusta]

Absolutely. Look at Phelps' freaking jaw SOMETIMES and tell me the HGH thing doesn't seem obvious.

It isn't just that the records are dropping, they are being SMASHED in the pool and on the track. Makes me sick to watch.

To heck with the jaw.

Look at his arms.

 

[Ferminal]

To my knowledge Jones didn't (well, I seem to recall some confusion about her having a positive A-sample and a negative B-sample once), but we know she used drugs.

Griffith-Joyner never tested positive, but Darrell Robinson claimed to have supplied her with human growth hormone (although it was never proved), and epilepsy doctors said that epilepsy as a cause of her death was extremely unlikely (although not impossible). Also bear in mind that her massive increases in personal bests came not in her earlier years (as is the case for Shelly-Ann Fraser and Usain Bolt) but at the age of 29. It's not cast-iron evidence, but I'd say that belief in her being drug-assisted can be described as reasonable. On the other hand, the famous time of 10.49 was believed to have been almost-certainly wind-assisted, which unfairly exaggerates the improvement in her performances. There are a lot of caveats in that paragraph.

That's an excellent point. But it's not entirely analogous, I think. If we were to see a woman with the same physical characteristics as Usain Bolt tearing up the record books, it would be less suspicious than someone like one of the present crop of sprinters suddenly running sub-10.6. (Funnily enough, I actually find the times of Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell a little more suspicious than those of Bolt, although there's no basis to that other than my instincts since Bolt appears to be a physical freak.) There is definitely something in what you're saying, though.

Indeed the wind assisted WR is an interesting one, was FloJo simply a "super doper"?

 

[runninboy]

Americans are just mad that they don't dominate the sprinting scene anymore. Jamaican coaches are by far the best and most knowledgable in the world, and they are all required to pass a rigorous test of integrity before they become a certified coach. Sprinting is their contries' most coveted sport, there's no way any of their coaches would allow some such nonsense like doping to occur. It is not worth the risk. I know, I have looked them in the eyes. Jamaican coaches also have their athletes do a lot of core work, all it takes is one look at the rest of the field to know that they do none.

Everybody that's hating up on Bolts obviously didn't watch the race.

I agree. I am an American and we have always had an anti US bias in the sprints. The moment we get beat its " the other guys are cheating."
Now when i was running there were quite a few good white high school sprinters, but college coaches would always convert them to another event because"the best sprinters were black". Then when our guys get spanked by a white guy, well he had to cheat because no white guys are fast. We always had lousy stick passing but instead of learning how to pass properly we always got by by the skin of our teeth. Funny how 4 black guys who are "genetically superior" barely beat 4 white guys. Couldnt be lousy passing must be white boys doping. Always an ezcuse instead of working to be better. Now that attitude has finally bit us in the rear.

Now it is a black guy who is very tall, Bolt is like 6 ft 5 that is a tremendous natural advantage if he can maintain his stride length and keep a high turnover. Despite that sprinting is all about being relaxed as you work at a very high output(if you tighten up you slow down) and this guy personifies relaxation, suddenly he is a major doper.
Did anyone notice his relay leg? not as relaxed, not as fast.

I dont know if it just an American thing but we tend to discount other peoples efforts when they beat us. Then we stick on some arbitrary excuse because it doesnt jibe with our preconceived notions.
We lost alot of ground because we thought only black guys from Africa could run distance. But when you look at our high school milers almost all the fastest times are from the 60's & 70's.
So our talent pool had gotten fat & lazy while the rest of the world kept working. Then we see white distance runners from Australia & Europe running stride for stride with the Kenyans and it is quite clear we are dogging it. Now a few of our guys are not being intimidated and they are starting to make improvements, like Ryan Hall in the marathon.
While it might appear Bolt is a doper I think it is just the US trying to justify our laziness in coaching & athletes

 

[scribe]

Funny how 4 black guys who are "genetically superior" barely beat 4 white guys.

Remember Jimmy the Greek? lol

Also, I wonder why there aren't more blacks in cycling if they are superior athletes? Or do you think it is a matter of time with some opportunity?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

For all the blahblablah from the Fanboys:

Here is the WR Progression of 100m, only legal times at low Altitude (below 1.000 meters) and only automatic timing:

1964: 10.06 Hayes - USA
1977: 10.03 Leonard - CUB
1983: 9.97 Lewis - USA
1991: 9.86 Lewis - USA
1999: 9.79 Greene - USA
2006: 9.77 Powell - JAM
2009: 9.58 Bolt - JAM

So it took 19 years to lower the record by 0,09 Seconds (Hayes to Lewis). We are still talking about drug-free college students.

Now the "light Doping" starts:
It took only 8 years to lower the record by another 0,11 Seconds (Lewis the amateur to Lewis the professional)

15 long years were needed to lower the record by another 0,09 Seconds (Lewis to Powell).

And now the record is broken by 0,19 (!!!) Seconds in only 3 (!!!) years.

Dont come up with that "oh Bolt was great when young". So it was Carl Lewis, Harvey Glance, Robert Hayes, Calvin Smith, Steve Williams, Jim Hines etc. etc. etc.! Just have a look at the youth records. And dont come up with "oh Bolt is the greatest talent ever". It was said (and true) before (Lewis, Hayes, Owens). Its just that the fanboys know nothing about the great history of track & field. Talent shows early, but it doesnt improve by 5% in 3 years.

And dont even let me get started with that "Women" improvements....

Welcome to the new world of PED.