Bronzini and Olivarri

[ricara]

There was a thread with a link to a photo of the legs of the podium finishers of the women's world road race. It was shut down, presumably due to sexist postings.

All I can say is that in the early '80s one of the top women racers was Cindy Olivarri. She raced in the Boulder area many times and I met her briefly on several occasions.

Cindy definitely struck me as odd. She had a very deep voice, moderately heavy facial hair, and greater leg musculature than any woman I had ever met or seen. Sure enough she got popped for steroids right before the Olympics. She had been using them for years with the noted side effects. They hushed it all up saying she had to withdraw due to "mononucleosis" or some other nonsense.

I have never heard Bronzini speak, but just from looking at her legs, I am strongly reminded of Olivarri. I would guess that she is doing steroids or some kind of drug program.

Obviously visual appearance is not proof of doping. But I think it just goes to show how poorly the current system works. Bernard Kohl was caught for doping, but not because the system works so well. He just got lazy one day and didn't do the things he knew he needed to do to avoid a positive test. How many dozens of tests did he pass while doing PED's?

Please don't make them shut this thread down because of silly comments. There is obviously a problem in women's sports as well as men's sports. If the thread is shut down then the problem (and possibly the solutions) can't be discussed.

 

[Leopejo]

not important

 

[Benotti69]

i did notice the muscle of some of the competitors legs and thought they must 'train hard'.......

no one is gonna get done for doping at the worlds..

 

[Black-Balled]

*** edited by mod ***

 

[scribe]

Is it sexist to ask for pictures?

 

[ak-zaaf]

Is it sexist to ask for pictures?

No, why would it be?

thread ruining format pics (I took this one out - Mod)

 

[ricara]

i did notice the muscle of some of the competitors legs and thought they must 'train hard'.......

Yes. I only wish that I could train that hard!

no one is gonna get done for doping at the worlds..

They're popping guys who won the TdF and medaled at the Olympic Road Race. Why not World's?

 

[ricara]

No, why would it be?

thread ruining format pics:

That first one where Bronzini is holding the saddle. Maybe it's just my monitor, but I could swear that she is showing the same kind of facial hair that Olivarri used to have.

I can't imagine that out of competition testing wouldn't catch that kind of steroid abuse in these modern times. Heck, they even caught Olivarri, over 25 years ago. But maybe they don't have the budget to do as much testing for women's racing.

 

[jae2460]

If Tyler Hamilton and Eddy Merckxx had an affair, she could be their son... Does she have an "adam's apple"?

 

[Skip Madness]

Here is a video of her being interviewed after the Worlds. Such a DEEP voice OMG!

I don't know how you can make out any facial hair in that picture with the saddle seeing as the compression seems to be too high to make out such detail.

Seriously, I'm all for discussing doping in women's cycling. I suspect that given the scarcity of testing, which Marianne Vos commented on recently, as well as plenty of well-known cases in the past, there must be some slipping under the radar. But given that testosterone has long been used as a doping product, do you not think that women with naturally higher levels of testosterone - which facial hair, or a deeper voice than most would be logical effects of - might naturally do better in sports? I'm not saying Bronzini is or isn't doping or has or has not in the past, but you need something more than saying her legs look funny (they look totally normal for a cyclist to me) and you thought you made out some facial hair in a photo with visible compression artefacts.

 

[joe_papp]

My teammate and Bronzini had something going-on in 2006 so I met her several times. She had the same short hair then and the not-waif-like build, and deep voice. But she was very nice, friendly, w/ seemingly stable/normal moods.

Olivarri was involved in a massive program of self-doping - her own family was providing her with doping products (a sister who was an MD), if I recall correctly. My then-mentor covered-up her withdrawal from the US Olympic Team. I touched on this here: http://joepapp.blogspot.com/2009/12/cindy-olivarri.html.

I obviously didn't learn my lesson, because I have a Bicycle Guide magazine dedicated and signed by Olivarri, an issue she appeared on the cover after having come clean for doping. I remember telling her then (I would have been, perhaps, 15/16, though I believe the magazine was older) that I appreciated her honesty after having been deceptive and I wanted to offer her my support and encouragement as a new cyclist and fan of the sport (I'd written to her care of the publisher). She sent back the signed magazine with the aforementioned dedication, encouraging me to avoid the same mistakes that tripped her up.

Difference between the two is that Bronzini has consistently been one of the best field sprinters in the world for several years, whereas Olivarri's Olympic Trials performance came only after the doping transformed her. Purely speculative but I think there's a low-risk of Bronzini's being positive a la Olivarri.

 

[flicker]

My teammate and Bronzini had something going-on in 2006 so I met her several times. She had the same short hair then and the not-waif-like build, and deep voice. But she was very nice, friendly, w/ seemingly stable/normal moods.

Olivarri was involved in a massive program of self-doping - her own family was providing her with doping products (a sister who was an MD), if I recall correctly. My then-mentor covered-up her withdrawal from the US Olympic Team. I touched on this here: http://joepapp.blogspot.com/2009/12/cindy-olivarri.html.

I obviously didn't learn my lesson, because I have a Bicycle Guide magazine dedicated and signed by Olivarri, an issue she appeared on the cover after having come clean for doping. I remember telling her then (I would have been, perhaps, 15/16, though I believe the magazine was older) that I appreciated her honesty after having been deceptive and I wanted to offer her my support and encouragement as a new cyclist and fan of the sport (I'd written to her care of the publisher). She sent back the signed magazine with the aforementioned dedication, encouraging me to avoid the same mistakes that tripped her up.

Difference between the two is that Bronzini has consistently been one of the best field sprinters in the world for several years, whereas Olivarri's Olympic Trials performance came only after the doping transformed her. Purely speculative but I think there's a low-risk of Bronzini's being positive a la Olivarri.

bronzini nice good clean
olivarri not nice bad dirty

frankenstein monster fire is good clean

 

[180mmCrank]

Here is a video of her being interviewed after the Worlds. Such a DEEP voice OMG!

I don't know how you can make out any facial hair in that picture with the saddle seeing as the compression seems to be too high to make out such detail.

.

Thanks for the video - she is obviously a bloke - NOT!

I suspect there are some real issues in women's cycling. Not sure we can draw many conclusions from the fact the winner of the Worlds has short hair and a few muscles. Still it's a discussion board so I guess people are free to discuss... as long as we keep within the bounds of good taste.

Terry

 

[Spare Tyre]

Bronzini's voice sounds totally normal to me, unlike the women on American TV shows, who sound as though they are still 6 years old with their little girl voices.

 

[ricara]

Here is a video of her being interviewed after the Worlds.

Thanks for the link. Bronzini's voice sounds totally normal to me. Nothing at all like Cindy Olivarri's voice was when she was juiced.

I'm not saying Bronzini is or isn't doping or has or has not in the past, but you need something more than saying her legs look funny (they look totally normal for a cyclist to me) and you thought you made out some facial hair in a photo with visible compression artefacts.

To me her legs look totally normal for a male cyclist. They are distinctly more muscular and defined than the other women on the podium. Certainly not proof.

I agree that it would be hard to tell from almost any photo or video on the internet about the facial hair. And even then, some women have more of it than others. So again no proof.

I just know that when I met Cindy Olivarri in person, I was really scratching my head -- things just didn't seem right. It didn't surprise me in the least when she was busted for steroid abuse.

I hope that someday we have reliable tests and a good budget and can get rid of doping in sport for good.

 

[Parrot23]

...do you not think that women with naturally higher levels of testosterone...might naturally do better in sports?

Absolutely. I think Bronzini might naturally have higher testosterone levels. The video/audio certainly is reassuring that she is no cyborg.

Wondering how the UCI/WADA threshold levels for testosterone vary as between men and women, or whether UCI etc. is testing mainly for artificial testosterone. There definitely could be an edge for women with higher natural levels (re just as some male riders have medical exclusions for being higher than 0.50 hematocrit, Cunego being one, I think).

On hematocrit, I've seen figures showing that natural/avg. male values are about 0.05 higher than women. So the UCI threshold for men is higher at 0.50 vs. women's threshold at 0.47. Latter figure might be a tad permissive.

I agree with the following comment:

To me her legs look totally normal for a male cyclist. They are distinctly more muscular and defined than the other women on the podium.

 

[Guttercat]

Oh how this thread pertains to my interests.

Did the women in the 80's dope to the effing gills with anabolics? Yes. I was there. I know.

Do some women naturally develop naturally gigantic muscles without anabolics? Yes. I was there. I know.

That's all I'll say.

 

[NashbarShorts]

Here is a video of her being interviewed after the Worlds...

...her legs look totally normal to me)

Could you re-post the video, this time w/ the correct link? The link you posted is a video of Ricardo Ricco.

Photos: the photos posted here are not the most recent. Did you see the photo of her on the podium next to her competitors???

I'm surprised this thread has not been shut down. On the original "Bronzini", I posted a pic of Tammy Thomas, as prime example of unnatural female doping specimen. The moderator shut it down. WTF. Some people take themselves WAAAY too seriously.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Is Bronzini a hermaphrodite like Caster Semanya?

 

[Benotti69]

plenty of women in Italy have natural deep voices.

my sister in law has a range that you would not believe that match her moods, from a whisper to the voice of the devil.....imagine the range of moods to match that.

 

[Leopejo]

Giorgia Bronzini is as much a track racer as a road racer, as evidenced by her two previous world championships (as a junior and last year). No wonder she has more muscles than other road racers.

 

[Roland Rat]

Is Bronzini a hermaphrodite like Caster Semanya?

Any ban I receive is worth it.

 

[Barrus]

Keep this thread clean and proper

 

[jimmypop]

Keep this thread clean and proper

Just like professional cycling!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

As previously mentioned, Giorgia is a trackie. If you look at other trackies, they've got some pretty huge legs too.

Giorgia has been consistently one of the best women's sprinters for seven years now. She's quite butch, sure, but then Linus Gerdemann is quite effeminate, and I don't see anybody claiming that's the result of doping. She may have a naturally higher level of testosterone - but that's entirely speculative. If she does, what of it? Wouldn't that be a natural advantage? What's wrong with a natural advantage? Do we penalise Damiano Cunego for having a high hematocrit because of generations of relatives living at altitude, or do we put ballast on José Rujano's bike in mountain stages because his lack of weight is an advantage?

What's more, there's a good chance that the "facial hair" picked up on the image is due to either compression of the image, or shadow or something from her facial piercing.

I don't know if Giorgia Bronzini is doping, but since she'll have had to have taken plenty of tests after winning races both on the track and road, and this result is not at all out of the blue for anybody at all who follows women's cycling, I don't think just making assumptions based on speculative factors that seem to revolve mainly around not fancying her, is productive or useful in any way.