Can trust be restored?

[Aleajactaest]

The level of traffic in this forum indicates the problem.

Every day a new revelation about doping, either now or in the last 20-30 years.

This taints the entire sport in the minds of the public. A bit less so for the tifosi but even casual sports fans now thinks all cyclist dope. And frankly, that appears largely justified.

Since the dopers stay ahead of tests, no one can be confident that negative results mean anything and results end up having an expiration date for both the test and any races they cover.

I watch racing cause I love it and it really doesn't matter to me if they dope, it's entertainment not sport.

But, if you want it to have meaning how do you get there? T&R will help with the past but not the future. Do we make the penalties so severe that no one could take the risk. ( e.g. life for first offense) or something else.

I just can't see a way forward.

 

[Tinman]

Not that hard. Start with retrospective testing and increase OOC tests on targeted athletes. By independent body. 80% of job done.

Do we need this thread?

 

[peterst6906]

Not that hard. Start with retrospective testing and increase OOC tests on targeted athletes. By independent body. 80% of job done.

That assumes validated tests are available for all doping methods.

We know that's not true, so I think with the addition of a strong research and development program run by the independent body we could get back to some form of trust in 5-10 years after it begins operation with full funding.

I personally would like to see mobile labs accompany the pro tour events (and have a fleet of mobile labs to cover a broad range of sport) to conduct testing during competition and conduct OOC at training camps, etc. in addition to other OOC testing. There are some technical challenges with the stability of certain instruments undergoing constant transport, but having erected, used, dismantled and used mobile labs all over the World, the problems are not as significant as they seem.

 

[Aleajactaest]

Not that hard. Start with retrospective testing and increase OOC tests on targeted athletes. By independent body. 80% of job done.

Do we need this thread?

Dunno, seems you think so.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18840

It was a serious question. The whole prove a negative issue. Is any test accurate enough to always be true or do we just say that all results are accepted as proof and they are NEVER allowed to be retested. Otherwise, we just chase our tail endlessly.

 

[Aleajactaest]

That assumes validated tests are available for all doping methods.

We know that's not true, so I think with the addition of a strong research and development program run by the independent body we could get back to some form of trust in 5-10 years after it begins operation with full funding.

Does that mean we lose a generation of believable results and the years till be build trust and evermore suspect?

It sucks to be a cyclist right now if that's the best we can hope for.

 

[peterst6906]

Does that mean we lose a generation of believable results and the years till be build trust and evermore suspect?

It sucks to be a cyclist right now if that's the best we can hope for.

The way I see it. Currently:

1. some people have no faith in results now
2. many people believe the results of most, but know a cheat when they see one
3. some people believe all the results no matter what

That wouldn't change. There's no reason to lose a generation of results. Take them for what you think they are and be happy (or angry, sad, etc. whichever you prefer).

The group in point 1 is probably bigger than ever now, but as individuals their opinion will change when they are individually convinced of change.

 

[blackcat]

in JV we trust

 

[BroDeal]

The level of traffic in this forum indicates the problem.

Every day a new revelation about doping, either now or in the last 20-30 years.

This taints the entire sport in the minds of the public. A bit less so for the tifosi but even casual sports fans now thinks all cyclist dope. And frankly, that appears largely justified.

Since the dopers stay ahead of tests, no one can be confident that negative results mean anything and results end up having an expiration date for both the test and any races they cover.

I watch racing cause I love it and it really doesn't matter to me if they dope, it's entertainment not sport.

But, if you want it to have meaning how do you get there? T&R will help with the past but not the future. Do we make the penalties so severe that no one could take the risk. ( e.g. life for first offense) or something else.

I just can't see a way forward.

As long as we have people like you defending the doperz and crying about people getting caugh then the sport is in trouble.

 

[Tinman]

That assumes validated tests are available for all doping methods.

not at all, don't need validated tests for all drugs now. The threat of a new test coming out (combined with a minimum 2 year first offence ban to replace the 6 months off season nonsense) will make the majority thinking of doping think again. And lifetime out of the sport for 2nd offense.

 

[ValleyFlowers]

I watch racing cause I love it and it really doesn't matter to me if they dope, it's entertainment not sport.

You're confused. Cycling is a sport. And it is entertainment.
It's no different from any other sport in that respect.
And cycling (at certain levels), like many other sports, is also a business.

I just can't see a way forward.

Not surprising given your confusion.
Doping damages the sport and through that threatens it's entertainment and business value.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

According to Damsgaard there is no need for that, cycling is clean according to this puppet.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-probably-clean-in-comeback-damsgaard-claims

Who invents this stuff.

 

[Benotti69]

The OP states he doesn't care about doping! Why then come into the clinic if it is not to troll?

 

[lostintime]

A way to cease taking drugs in sport, is to prove that the drugs themselves are not where the power comes from ... it comes from the belief and conviction in them has "giving them" the power.

Now yes , some will say this is blasphemous ! And yes ... it will come from those who invest their belief in the drugs as more powerful than the beleif in oneself. The term "placebo effect" is often used as almost a derogatory term , as if belief is somehow a "meaningless power". I say it is the ONLY power !! Believe me or doubt me , doesn't matter. For those who beleive the do , for those that do not they do not.

Science is figuring out what has been known forever , that the mind is more powerful than any other force.


You cannot "stop" people from doing anything ..... you can offer better choices . Show these choices are more effective in reaching your goals and allow them to choose. Look at our world .. .all these efforts to "stop" and erradicate drugs, violence, war, poverty, etc ...... and they all fail and actually feed their worsening. The best one can do is be the best one can imagine to be, with integrity and belief in oneself .

 

[Aleajactaest]

As long as we have people like you defending the doperz and crying about people getting caugh then the sport is in trouble.

I don't defend it, I understand it. Not the same. However, until they can insure a clean competition, there will be people who cheat. If that were not true, we would have no prisons.

 

[Aleajactaest]

The OP states he doesn't care about doping! Why then come into the clinic if it is not to troll?

I should be clearer. Until it's clean I don't care. I'd rather see what diet, exercise, training and will can do. That is more compelling. Right now we see more of what extraordinary means can do. If I honestly felt that it was man vs man, team vs team with just the sacrifice and pain they were willing to endure, I would happily eschew drugs. It would be more entertaining. I don't think that's what we have been seeing. Yes, it is changing but the sheer numbers of stories that keep emerging say it is not clean yet.

FWIW, it is by definition, trolling if you do not hold the majority position? I came here to see what people think. I come to the conclusion there is a jaundiced view of the sport here. It is not ultimately a black and white situation. In truth, there is a split view within the sport. Some admitted dopers are still welcome in the sport while others get no consideration at all. How do you reconcile that admitted dopers have significant positions within a sport that wants to be squeaky clean?

The best way to fight a war is to understand the other sides tactics. That means they need to have some method to understand everything within the sport in order to combat it. Right now that seems hard to imagine with the UCI still being involved. It's utterly clear that they had NO interest in running a clean sport and still don't. So, to start UCI needs to be disinfranchised and that can only come when the money stops backing them. So the Major Tours and National Sport federations need to abandon the UCI and then maybe something can happen with a new start.

What is my direct interest? Getting more of the sport on TV and stopping the already evident erosion of cycling as a sport of interest to broadcasters within the US and elsewhere. e.g. I want access to all cycling on my TV. I had a lot before Universal screwed it up buy now I get 1/2 highlights of the TDU and nothing of the other spring races so far. Very sad.

 

[Athame]

A way to cease taking drugs in sport, is to prove that the drugs themselves are not where the power comes from ... it comes from the belief and conviction in them has "giving them" the power.

_________________ EPO, HGH, Cleb, Steroids, Transfusions, et al., are not Homeopathic Placebos.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

The level of traffic in this forum indicates the problem.

I watch racing cause I love it and it really doesn't matter to me if they dope, it's entertainment not sport.

I am a jock. I participate in sport for the competitive value and the comraderie. It is an unspoken rule of sport, you don't cheat whether it is drugs or any other form of cheating. To suggest it does not matter that athletes dope is absurd. You are the problem in sport and the reason the culture of doping continues to permeate sport. Your attitude is bereft of any sense of moral awareness. It is amoral. Sad and pathetic!

If you want entertainment go to a movie.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I don't defend it, I understand it. Not the same. However, until they can insure a clean competition, there will be people who cheat. If that were not true, we would have no prisons.

I should be clearer. Until it's clean I don't care. I'd rather see what diet, exercise, training and will can do. That is more compelling. Right now we see more of what extraordinary means can do. If I honestly felt that it was man vs man, team vs team with just the sacrifice and pain they were willing to endure, I would happily eschew drugs. It would be more entertaining. I don't think that's what we have been seeing. Yes, it is changing but the sheer numbers of stories that keep emerging say it is not clean yet.

FWIW, it is by definition, trolling if you do not hold the majority position? I came here to see what people think. I come to the conclusion there is a jaundiced view of the sport here. It is not ultimately a black and white situation. In truth, there is a split view within the sport. Some admitted dopers are still welcome in the sport while others get no consideration at all. How do you reconcile that admitted dopers have significant positions within a sport that wants to be squeaky clean?

The best way to fight a war is to understand the other sides tactics. That means they need to have some method to understand everything within the sport in order to combat it. Right now that seems hard to imagine with the UCI still being involved. It's utterly clear that they had NO interest in running a clean sport and still don't. So, to start UCI needs to be disinfranchised and that can only come when the money stops backing them. So the Major Tours and National Sport federations need to abandon the UCI and then maybe something can happen with a new start.

What is my direct interest? Getting more of the sport on TV and stopping the already evident erosion of cycling as a sport of interest to broadcasters within the US and elsewhere. e.g. I want access to all cycling on my TV. I had a lot before Universal screwed it up buy now I get 1/2 highlights of the TDU and nothing of the other spring races so far. Very sad.

So what you are saying is you would prefer clean competition but since it is not clean now you would rather p!ss on everyone who wants it to be clean than admit to yourself that it is not. Way to make a stand dipstick.

 

[alitogata]

Q:What makes athletes taking drugs and get doped?
A:Huge prices ( money) and fame.

So what will make athletes not to get doped?
No prices no fame.. Race for the race and not for the price.

 

[sugarman]

A way to cease taking drugs in sport, is to prove that the drugs themselves are not where the power comes from ... it comes from the belief and conviction in them has "giving them" the power.

Now yes , some will say this is blasphemous ! And yes ... it will come from those who invest their belief in the drugs as more powerful than the beleif in oneself. The term "placebo effect" is often used as almost a derogatory term , as if belief is somehow a "meaningless power". I say it is the ONLY power !! Believe me or doubt me , doesn't matter. For those who beleive the do , for those that do not they do not.

Science is figuring out what has been known forever , that the mind is more powerful than any other force.

I'm not sure if your serious or not here, but, while the placebo effect is certainly real, pharmaceuticals are tested double blind against a placebo. If their effect doesn't significantly exceed the placebo effect then they are deemed ineffective and wont make it to the market.

To suggest you could get the same performance increase from a placebo as EPO, steroids etc is a bit laughable.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

So what you are saying is you would prefer clean competition but since it is not clean now you would rather p!ss on everyone who wants it to be clean than admit to yourself that it is not. Way to make a stand dipstick.

This.........

 

[Aleajactaest]

I am a jock. I participate in sport for the competitive value and the comraderie. It is an unspoken rule of sport, you don't cheat whether it is drugs or any other form of cheating. To suggest it does not matter that athletes dope is absurd. You are the problem in sport and the reason the culture of doping continues to permeate sport. Your attitude is bereft of any sense of moral awareness. It is amoral. Sad and pathetic!

If you want entertainment go to a movie.

I'm not the one who is deluded. If you think professional sports is about anything but entertainment, you're dreaming.

It starts with fake college sports which abuse the athletes, leave the dereft of an education and all to prime the pump for the boosters. How else do you justify a professor making $100K while the coaches make millions.

The UCI has been completely co-opted by the ASO who drive the entire sport based on what the entertainment value is.

FWIW, I'd prefer the sport without doping as the human stories are more compelling but the value as entertainment doesn't change just the results.

Earlier in the thread lostintime said that the power of drugs comes from the belief in them and that removing the belief is the solution. How would you do that? (assuming it is true, which I dispute as the tests indicate they have actual performance value)

 

[Aleajactaest]

So what you are saying is you would prefer clean competition but since it is not clean now you would rather p!ss on everyone who wants it to be clean than admit to yourself that it is not. Way to make a stand dipstick.

Way to argue a point I didn't make. I did not "**** on everyone who wants to make it clean". I said, how would you do it? Vast difference.

When Pierre de Coubertin started the modern Olympics, they limited it strictly to amateurs. The idea being that this preserved the pureness of sport. Professionals who had all the time and money to train would "pollute" the sport.

It didn't work and they had to remove these barriers as most people can't afford to train without money coming in. Even within a sport, money and access corrupt the process. Is if fair that the Yankees have a payroll of $194 million per year and the Padres only have $55 million? Should we limit each team to the same amount for salary, team management, access to equipment, nutrition etc.

When Lemond first used triathlon bars in the tour many said it was cheating, the same for disc wheels. The lines are blurry all over the sport and fixing this one issue while a laudible goal will not end the disparity in competition.

 

[ebandit]

maybe

It starts with fake college sports which abuse the athletes, leave the dereft of an education and all to prime the pump for the boosters. How else do you justify a professor making $100K while the coaches make millions.

maybe in USA......................you may choose to continue paying cable fees

but remember you don't have to

there are other places / ideals in the world too

 

[DirtyWorks]

Way to argue a point I didn't make. I did not "**** on everyone who wants to make it clean". I said, how would you do it? Vast difference.

Fine, let WADA open cases on their own and fund mandatory back-dated testing. That will cool the athlete's interest in doping.

When Pierre de Coubertin started the modern Olympics, they limited it strictly to amateurs. The idea being that this preserved the pureness of sport. Professionals who had all the time and money to train would "pollute" the sport.

It didn't work...

Define "work." The games existed, seem to go along well enough. That seems like it was working. But the IOC owners were not content with this. So, to grow the games, they coopted professional sports. Both "work." One is bigger than the other.

Make no mistake, the IOC wants the doping. It makes the games spectacular.