Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[pelotonIQ]

Me being sure that Pogi is doping based on circumstantial evidence is, yes, essentially loosely speculating. That's what The Clinic is 98 percent of the time.

If you genuinely cannot see the difference between this - which, admittedly, is very much bordering on outright conspiracy theories - and claiming that something concrete happened, like a rider triggering the bio passport, then that's solely and wholly on you.

If you have such a hard time handling the former, I suspect you're in the wrong place, because, again, that's what 98 percent of all posts in The Clinic amount to.

Whatever floats your boat and the bolded part has nothing to do with me, you're mixing me up with someone else from the Jonas thread. Take it up with him or her.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So yesterday Pogi was riding on his training 20 kilo bike.
When he rides V5RS dreams will be shattered and lots of guys OTL.

 

[pelotonIQ]

So yesterday Pogi was riding on his training 20 kilo bike.
When he rides V5RS dreams will be shattered and lots of guys OTL.

Inb4 the detractors start claiming the hidden motor is in the V5RS and not in the Y1Rs

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Inb4 the detractors start claiming the hidden motor is in the V5RS and not in the Y1Rs

I hope we figure this out soon, I don't want to end up accidentally buying the one without the motor.

 

[DONCA]

I'm no expert on these bikes but what is the speculation with the bikes he uses?

Does he perform better when on a certain bike model?

I'm no expert either, but I find it very suspect that Pogacar
1. can't outpace Vingegaard on his Y1Rs
2. has no problems outpacing him on the V5RS
3. that he can't get anywhere near his V5RS w/kg values with his Y1Rs.

Yes, the Y1Rs is 500g heavier, but that doesn't explain why he can't get anywhere near his best V5RS w/kg values.

Yesterday he did 6,8w/kg for a bit more then 8 minutes on the last climb. Maybe he slowed down a little bit when he saw that he couldn´t drop Vingegaard but even then it´s far away from his PRs with the V4Rs / V5Rs.:

V4Rs / V5Rs Pog:
7,21 W/kg - 19:50 Minutes – Côte de Domancy nach Combloux - Dauphiné 2025
6,98 W/kg - 39:50 Minutes – Plateau de Beille - Tour de France 2024
6,8–7,0 W/kg - 37:37 Minutes – Isola 2000 - Tour de France 2024

Now compare this with yesterdays effort on his Y1Rs. 6,8w/kg for only 8minutes. Thats far away from what he pushed on his V4Rs bike. Any explanation?

Wait for Hautacam and the V5RS Pogi and you will see some nuclear performance again.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'm no expert either, but I find it very suspect that Pogacar
1. can't outpace Vingegaard on his Y1Rs
2. has no problems outpacing him on the V5RS
3. that he can't get anywhere near his V5RS w/kg values with his Y1Rs.

Yes, the Y1Rs is 500g heavier, but that doesn't explain why he can't get anywhere near his best V5RS w/kg values.

Yesterday he did 6,8w/kg for a bit more then 8 minutes on the last climb. Maybe he slowed down a little bit when he saw that he couldn´t drop Vingegaard but even then it´s far away from his PRs with the V4Rs / V5Rs.:

V4Rs / V5Rs Pog:
7,21 W/kg - 19:50 Minutes – Côte de Domancy nach Combloux - Dauphiné 2025
6,98 W/kg - 39:50 Minutes – Plateau de Beille - Tour de France 2024
6,8–7,0 W/kg - 37:37 Minutes – Isola 2000 - Tour de France 2024

Now compare this with yesterdays effort on his Y1Rs. 6,8w/kg for only 8minutes. Thats far away from what he pushed on his V4Rs bike. Any explanation?

Wait for Hautacam and the V5RS Pogi and you will see some nuclear performance again.

Yesterday he was happy to follow Lenny Martinez pace (who dropped out of the breakaway) and went all out only for a part of the climb. The comparison with his most thermonuclear performances makes no sense. I also think that he rarely uses Y1Rs in the mountains and therefore no superb performances.

By this way of thinking you can prove that Vingo has terrible form - his 8 minute w/kg is so poor compared to the best performances.

 

[DONCA]

Yesterday he was happy to follow Lenny Martinez pace (who dropped out of the breakaway) and went all out only for a part of the climb. The comparison with his most thermonuclear performances makes no sense. I also think that he rarely uses Y1Rs in the mountains and therefore no superb performances.

By this way of thinking you can prove that Vingo has terrible form - his 8 minute w/kg is so poor compared to the best performances.

Only for the last meters he followed Martinez pace. He went all in to drop Vingo but didn´t suceed. Why?
This doesn´t explain why he can´t drop Vingo when he is ridings his Y1Rs.

Or do you want to tell us that he was on a social ride? Pog is so greedy he would have killed Vingo yesterday but he couldn´t.

The differences in his performance on his various bikes are far too big not to be skeptical.

 

[Extinction]

I think when Pog saw Vingo hanging on it wasn't worth the effort, because he would have kept the yellow jersey, only gained a few seconds and put his diminished team in the throes of responsibility to control the race before Hautecam. Now it's up to EF and he can go thermonuclear on Hautecam and kill the Tour.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Only for the last meters he followed Martinez pace. He went all in to drop Vingo but didn´t suceed. Why?
This doesn´t explain why he can´t drop Vingo when he is ridings his Y1Rs.

He followed Martinez for over a kilometer, did you watch the race? Come on. Zero sense to compare this climb with the best performances. As for his attack: it was strong but Vingo was simply good enough to follow. Nothing to see here. Not the first time Vingo is able to handle Pogi's accelerations. To make a sensible point you would need to show more examples of his Y1Rs rides in high mountains (but he rarely use it there because it's for flatter terrain, right? ).

 

[DONCA]

He followed Martinez for over a kilometer, did you watch the race? Come on. Zero sense to compare this climb with the best performances. As for his attack: it was strong but Vingo was simply good enough to follow. Nothing to see here. Not the first time Vingo is able to handle Pogi's accelerations. To make a sensible point you would need to show more examples of his Y1Rs rides in high mountains (but he rarely use it there because it's for flatter terrain, right? ).

Yes i did. Even if he slowed down a bit, as i said before it is still far away from his v5rs numbers.

Even then it is still strange why he can´t drop vingo when he is riding the y1rs. 500g weight differences doesn´t explain this.

We never ever saw those unnormal performances from pog on his y1rs bike and this is my point. he used it also on mountain stages at the uae tour and on other hilly stages but the crazy performances he did always on his v5rs. there is no logical explanation for it.

 

[Ulle97]

Yes i did. Even if he slowed down a bit, as i said before it is still far away from his v5rs numbers.

Even then it is still strange why he can´t drop vingo when he is riding the y1rs. 500g weight differences doesn´t explain this.

We never ever saw those unnormal performances from pog on his y1rs bike and this is my point. he used it also on mountain stages at the uae tour and on other hilly stages but the crazy performances he did always on his v5rs. there is no logical explanation for it.

You seem to be getting a lot of hate here mate 😄 but you might be on to something.

I suppose we can look for further evidence in the upcoming stages. If he goes thermonuclear and blows up the Tour on the y1rs then your argument is flawed.

But if we only see him dropping watt bombs on his v5rs, then you may well be right sir!🫡

 

[kingjr]

Yes i did. Even if he slowed down a bit, as i said before it is still far away from his v5rs numbers.

Even then it is still strange why he can´t drop vingo when he is riding the y1rs. 500g weight differences doesn´t explain this.

We never ever saw those unnormal performances from pog on his y1rs bike and this is my point. he used it also on mountain stages at the uae tour and on other hilly stages but the crazy performances he did always on his v5rs. there is no logical explanation for it.

MSR qualifies as normal, I suppose?

 

[Unchained]

I hope we figure this out soon, I don't want to end up accidentally buying the one without the motor.

I see you at the bike shop, keep winking at salesperson.. " this one is great, but I want the -special model-- I don't want a regular bike " if you see my girth grinding it out, I get dropped on speed bumps, forget about real climbs..if I show up with my new Colnago and suddenly I am not the last person to finish, people are not forced to wait.. Serious suspicions for sure.. Motor might not be discovered in pro peloton, but I will get found out at local group ride!! Bring on the motors for the masses!!

** and just our there.. Fairly confident in saying that the layups for Pogacar bicycles are unlikely what is in production to consumers. They have less durable paint finishes also that are lighter than consumer colors.. The claimed difference was high 6s to close to 700 grams difference between Colnago models.. Conspiracy theories about bike weight are just next open available rabbit hole!! Pogacar's numbers have him beating everyone on a single speed balloon tire beach bike!!

 

[Blobs]

I see you at the bike shop, keep winking at salesperson.. " this one is great, but I want the -special model-- I don't want a regular bike " if you see my girth grinding it out, I get dropped on speed bumps, forget about real climbs..if I show up with my new Colnago and suddenly I am not the last person to finish, people are not forced to wait.. Serious suspicions for sure.. Motor might not be discovered in pro peloton, but I will get found out at local group ride!! Bring on the motors for the masses!!

** and just our there.. Fairly confident in saying that the layups for Pogacar bicycles are unlikely what is in production to consumers. They have less durable paint finishes also that are lighter than consumer colors.. The claimed difference was high 6s to close to 700 grams difference between Colnago models.. Conspiracy theories about bike weight are just next open available rabbit hole!! Pogacar's numbers have him beating everyone on a single speed balloon tire beach bike!!

Dude, just tell them that you started heat training and doing some more intervals, and everyone calling out your sudden 10% bump in wattage will be called conspiracy theorist by all the others!

 

[Unchained]

Dude, just tell them that you started heat training and doing some more intervals, and everyone calling out your sudden 10% bump in wattage will be called conspiracy theorist by all the others!

No will believe I do intervals.. Heat training possibly..

 

[Cookster15]

there is no logical explanation for it

Not saying you are wrong but surely there are logical explanations? I will try.

The reason why UAE use two different road bikes is one is optimized for weight (v5rs) and the other is optimized for aero (y1rs).

Weight would be given a higher priority for grand tour mountain stages - like PdB which had 5,000 metres of climbing. And grand tour mountain stages are where the biggest race in the world is usually won. Pogacar would be targeting these stages. Pogacar would not be targeting stages more suited to the y1rs.

So not sure we can compare the watts compared to less crucial stages or races. Its not the 500 grams but how much effort he puts in on those stages where the v5rs is optimal.

And so far we haven't had a high mountain stage suited to the v5rs. That changes on Thursday.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Yes i did. Even if he slowed down a bit, as i said before it is still far away from his v5rs numbers.

Even then it is still strange why he can´t drop vingo when he is riding the y1rs. 500g weight differences doesn´t explain this.

We never ever saw those unnormal performances from pog on his y1rs bike and this is my point. he used it also on mountain stages at the uae tour and on other hilly stages but the crazy performances he did always on his v5rs. there is no logical explanation for it.

There are logical explanations:
1) V5RS is lighter and suited to high mountain stages and obviously he targets mountains stages when it comes to peak performances and biggest energy expenditure. That's why you see his best rides on this bike.
2) He isn't in peak form at UAE Tour. Don't expect numbers even close to those during the TdF.
3) I repeat it again: Puy de Sancy climb wasn't done a bloc so it wasn't close to the best performances. Slowed down a bit? Martinez was too weak to stay with top guys in the breakaway and it's not logical to think he's only slightly worse than Pogi & Vingo doing an all-out attack.

 

[Red Rick]

To be honest there is huge jumps in performances during races, and that goes for most riders. I'm pretty sure most riders megadose for critical stages, and that's why you see increases in performances from early, less important mountain stages to critical mountain stages later.

Passo Pradaccio was done 90km into a stage as the first climb in the Giro, and after 45 minutes at like 5.6 W/kg there were maybe 10 guys left. Fast forward to Finestre and we see everyone completely smash that on Finestre on a longer climb and higher altitude.

 

[Notarobot]

I just realize Pogacar got out of the saddle when he attacked. He won't on Hautacam because he's using the motorbike by then

 

[Netserk]

To be honest there is huge jumps in performances during races, and that goes for most riders. I'm pretty sure most riders megadose for critical stages, and that's why you see increases in performances from early, less important mountain stages to critical mountain stages later.

Passo Pradaccio was done 90km into a stage as the first climb in the Giro, and after 45 minutes at like 5.6 W/kg there were maybe 10 guys left. Fast forward to Finestre and we see everyone completely smash that on Finestre on a longer climb and higher altitude.

I think it was last year where I still had to point out that some riders do in fact get stronger throughout a GT and not just less bad.

I also expect Evenepoel to be stronger on Hautacam than he was on Puy Sancy.

 

[Red Rick]

I think it was last year where I still had to point out that some riders do in fact get stronger throughout a GT and not just less bad.

I also expect Evenepoel to be stronger on Hautacam than he was on Puy Sancy.

"just get slighly lass bed" is such a bs idea that's popular only for no good reason other than some how it feels good for people to believe that.

It's also scientifically not even true, in controlled studies by the way. On super high load people get tired but also better for a short time before falling off when they burn out.

But that's almost certainly not what's happening here.

 

[Tim Cahill]

The rate of change in w/kg from stage 14 to the much harder 15 for several is the concern.

Even now i still think there must’ve been some sort of mistake, super aero gravel, a freak gust of wind not factored in.

 

[Red Rick]

The rate of change in w/kg from stage 14 to the much harder 15 for several is the concern.

Even now i still think there must’ve been some sort of mistake, super aero gravel, a freak gust of wind not factored in.

I'll start by saying I didn't check for wind on Plat d'Adet but a few things are very clear

1. Plat d'Adet was way too slow for Pogacar's best possible time before Pogacar attacked.
2. There was a very clear tailwind on Plateau de Beille, and that climb in general is pretty prone to tailwinds
3. There's a very small descent on Plat d'Adet where I'm not sure it skews the number down a bit
4. Plat d'Adet didn't have a longer flatter section before the climb, so recovery from the previous climbs would be lower, and I think this is in general a very underrated factor when assessing climbing performances. There's way too much focus on overall kJ expenditure because of a certain group of twitter algorhithm abusers and their cult.
5. Drafting in general is way underestimated, especially in larger groups, and Plateau de Beille is shallower than especially the first half of Plat d'Adet where the peloton was in a group.

For reference, Isola was also a huge tailwind and Couiolle is a wonky climb with all the switchbacks breaking the rhythm and no recovery before coming off the Colmiane descent.

 

[Red Rick]

Gaps often reflect performances on a given day better than estimates. Vingo didn't break the climbing record but the climb was only part of the story. His overall level in this TT (including flat/descending sections) was phenomenal. Even someone from UAE said that even Pogacar on a very good day would've still lost it by 40 seconds.

Are you replying to me in the wrong thread?

And yeah I agree with the overall point, but Pog at 40s would get treated much differently from Pog losing 1'40.

 

[zlev11]

To be honest there is huge jumps in performances during races, and that goes for most riders. I'm pretty sure most riders megadose for critical stages, and that's why you see increases in performances from early, less important mountain stages to critical mountain stages later.

Passo Pradaccio was done 90km into a stage as the first climb in the Giro, and after 45 minutes at like 5.6 W/kg there were maybe 10 guys left. Fast forward to Finestre and we see everyone completely smash that on Finestre on a longer climb and higher altitude.

IMO this points to motor use. no reason to risk it on a less decisive stage, but when there's real time to gain it's worth the risk.