Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[SorelyBoy]

But when someone points out to what explains the gap people just brush it off and continue to believe what they want to believe. The fact is that exceptional human beings do exist.

How hard was the pink guy riding?

Totally normal then, huh? I bet the guy in pink thought he was going ok up until Pogs switched it up a gear or six.

 

[Divergence]

Totally normal then, huh? I bet the guy in pink thought he was going ok up until Pogs switched it up a gear or six.

No, not normal. Exceptional.
Well, OK then. That explains it. A no name rider going OK on a a climb against Pog is not gonna cut it.

 

[onefortheroad]

So you do not address any of the points I make, and you just repeat what you already believe.
Look at Pog trying to get up to speed once Wout attacked. If that is not contorting the whole body idk what is.
Also, I would like to express my satisfaction that road cycling is where it needs to be in terms of body type. I am very glad that people (Pog) know how to train nowadays and that even on flat-ish courses the best guy is not a bone breaker but a guy who can also climb. It is good to send the big heavy guys to the track.

I do not see the same. WVA is riding the bike like he was about to break the pedals. Pogi is gliding along as if his bike was doing the work.

Just my opinion:
We are losing the beautiful specialization that made cycling a tactical chess match. By erasing the distinction between "climbers" and "rouleurs," the sport is becoming a monotonous display of "super-soldiers" who dominate every terrain, leaving no room for the gritty specialists who used to define the classics.

Oh, please... Are we really supposed to believe that everyone was and is "training wrong" until Tadej showed up? Suggesting that modern nutrition and Zone 2 training suddenly allows a human to sustain ultra power for long distances is a fairytale. At those levels, we're talking about performances that historically and scientifically land in the zone of "suspicious".

One size fits all dominance where the same guy wins everyone everywhere everytime feels artificial. It’s too perfect. When one guy makes world class professionals look like weekend amateurs, it’s not just "fisionomia." It feels like we are watching a different species. If he were just a doped human (old school style), it might actually be more believable than this "pure and clean" dominance.

 

[onefortheroad]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NQFFFWes3o4

Rides like this certainly don't help against the motor 'conspiracy'.
Who needs a leadout or hard pace when you can do that?
How easy was that, indeed? HAHAH

Ahahahah, I didn't even remember how hilarious and shameless this was, especially doing it right to their faces.

Too easy to be believable, what’s more there was zero change in cadence, position or any form of body movement, just a large increase in speed.

Sails away into the distance like he’s on a motorbike. I do wonder how much evidence people need to see before they’ll cop on. Like, seriously, the guy does these weird as looking attacks on the flat and up hills and his body hardly changes its position or looks like it’s putting in any extra effort. Paris Roubaix saw the same thing where he attacked an already flying Van Aert without seeming to be making any effort at all. His bike position was terrible as well, torso like an air brake. Van Aert was twisting himself in knots just to keep up, slamming the pedals so hard I thought he was going to break them.

 

[red_flanders]

Oh, please... Are we really supposed to believe that everyone was and is "training wrong" until Tadej showed up?

I'm curious if anyone on this forum has suggested that? I don't really follow the thread, so genuine question. I'm guessing not, however.

Suggesting that modern nutrition and Zone 2 training suddenly allows a human to sustain ultra power for long distances is a fairytale. At those levels, we're talking about performances that historically and scientifically land in the zone of "suspicious".

Is anyone suggesting his rides aren't suspicious? I think they're wildly suspicious.

Personally I've seen enough insane cycling in my many years following the sport that I'm not convinced someone is using a motor just because they leave everyone in the dust with ease.

I'm not saying it's impossible or even unlikely. But to this point, with the arguments presented, I'm not convinced. I'd wager that's a position held by many others.

 

[onefortheroad]

I'm curious if anyone on this forum has suggested that? I don't really follow the thread, so genuine question. I'm guessing not, however.

Is anyone suggesting his rides aren't suspicious? I think they're wildly suspicious.

Personally I've seen enough insane cycling in my many years following the sport that I'm not convinced someone is using a motor just because they leave everyone in the dust with ease.

I'm not saying it's impossible or even unlikely. But to this point, with the arguments presented, I'm not convinced. I'd wager that's a position held by many others.

You say you're not convinced it's a motor. But are you convinced that human physiology somehow evolved more in the last 3-4 years than in the previous 20-30 (overall)?
Shaving minutes off records held by the most heavily medicated era (doing it consecutively without fading) while claiming it's just the result of optimized protocols may suggest the evolution isn't biological. We are witnessing power levels that don't match the physical effort being shown. Even with the best training and nutrition, I think the math on Pogi just doesn't work.

 

[red_flanders]

You say you're not convinced it's a motor. But are you convinced that human physiology somehow evolved more in the last 3-4 years than in the previous 20-30 (overall)?

I think it hurts your arguments to use straw men to try and make your points. That question is farcical on a couple levels.

Shaving minutes off records held by the most heavily medicated era (doing it consecutively without fading) while claiming it's just the result of optimized protocols may suggest the evolution isn't biological. We are witnessing power levels that don't match the physical effort being shown. Even with the best training and nutrition, I think the math on Pogi just doesn't work.

As I said, I find his performances (and MANY others) unbelievable. I don't buy the zone 2 or nutrition nonsense. However...

"Power levels that don't match the physical effort being shown" is a totally subjective judgement. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not convinced you're right. I certainly have my opinions about the use of motors in the past, there were examples I thought were so visibly egregious as to be comical. I don't find these to be in that realm. It's not as obvious to me. As an aside, I grant that I could be wrong about the previous examples like Froome, Poels, and maybe Cancellara. But I'm fairly convinced some of those performances were motorized. They look quite different to me than this. Could it be that this is just a less blatant level of power being added? Sure. Entirely possible. And I have zero faith in the detection efforts. Maybe they're being done in good faith, maybe not. The "anti-doping" authorities have proven to me to be unworthy of trust or belief.

I guess for me it feels like you're pounding the table with comments to the effect that it's visibly obvious and that there really is no other explanation. That I don't buy at this point. That's all. It's just too unequivocal for me. I'm not saying it can't be motor doping. I'm just not convinced it is.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Poagacar is doing impossible. Skill issue.

 

[cnort]

We are losing the beautiful specialization that made cycling a tactical chess match.

Is that fair? Who other than Pogacar is brilliant in all disciplines? He seems to be a serious outlier, and I don't see it becoming the norm.

I perceive fewer pure climbers but I wonder is it that they struggle with insane speeds on the flat. So yes, less of a chess match, but I think that is some supercharged teams bludgeoning everyone. That's been standard practice for a long time, but seems to be getting more effective.

Maybe it's time for some rule changes to reduce the orchestrated tactics we see. Get rid of race radios and power meters, bring back loose wool jerseys, etc. Oh yes, also ban motors and doping.

 

[ashhutch1997]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NQFFFWes3o4

Rides like this certainly don't help against the motor 'conspiracy'.
Who needs a leadout or hard pace when you can do that?
How easy was that, indeed? HAHAH

I honestly forgot how outrageous this attack was. Switched off as soon as he went.

 

[BubbaChuck]

will it work on sunday.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

will it work on sunday.

Let's not complicate things. The simplest solutions are usually correct.
Teddy will eat a triple portion of porridge in the morning and on Redoute he will say "cya after the race".

 

[bah]

I honestly forgot how outrageous this attack was. Switched off as soon as he went.

Even more so because it didn't even look like an attack; more like he just drifted off the front by accident.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Even more so because it didn't even look like an attack; more like he just drifted off the front by accident.

That’s always been one of my bones of contention. A major one. His attacks don’t look as if he’s trying any harder than usual. They just happen, without any forewarning and without any indication that he’s putting in the effort. Now it wasn’t always like this with him, I’ll give him that. But these post 2023 seated attacks are ultimately very very odd looking.

 

[onefortheroad]

I think it hurts your arguments to use straw men to try and make your points. That question is farcical on a couple levels.

As I said, I find his performances (and MANY others) unbelievable. I don't buy the zone 2 or nutrition nonsense. However...

"Power levels that don't match the physical effort being shown" is a totally subjective judgement. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not convinced you're right. I certainly have my opinions about the use of motors in the past, there were examples I thought were so visibly egregious as to be comical. I don't find these to be in that realm. It's not as obvious to me. As an aside, I grant that I could be wrong about the previous examples like Froome, Poels, and maybe Cancellara. But I'm fairly convinced some of those performances were motorized. They look quite different to me than this. Could it be that this is just a less blatant level of power being added? Sure. Entirely possible. And I have zero faith in the detection efforts. Maybe they're being done in good faith, maybe not. The "anti-doping" authorities have proven to me to be unworthy of trust or belief.

I guess for me it feels like you're pounding the table with comments to the effect that it's visibly obvious and that there really is no other explanation. That I don't buy at this point. That's all. It's just too unequivocal for me. I'm not saying it can't be motor doping. I'm just not convinced it is.

That’s your cartoon version.
It’s beyond the visually absurd logic that hits us in the face every race. There are compelling technical dissections already shared in this forum.
And let’s not forget Kigali. Being utterly dismantled by Remco, only to return days later and pulverize the competition as an untouchable force. If that surreal fairytale works for you, keep it.

 

[onefortheroad]

Is that fair? Who other than Pogacar is brilliant in all disciplines? He seems to be a serious outlier, and I don't see it becoming the norm.

I perceive fewer pure climbers but I wonder is it that they struggle with insane speeds on the flat. So yes, less of a chess match, but I think that is some supercharged teams bludgeoning everyone. That's been standard practice for a long time, but seems to be getting more effective.

Maybe it's time for some rule changes to reduce the orchestrated tactics we see. Get rid of race radios and power meters, bring back loose wool jerseys, etc. Oh yes, also ban motors and doping.

Fair and Pogacar in the same sentence?!
But of course this is subjective, just an opinion. When one rider is suddenly super elite at everything, turning a tactical sport into brute force, questions are raised. Outlier or distortion?
If the answer is “just” better training and nutrition, then it must be some kind of magic, one of a kind recipe. That may comfort some, but to me it’s the most surreal explanation of all.

 

[red_flanders]

That’s your cartoon version.
It’s beyond the visually absurd logic that hits us in the face every race. There are compelling technical dissections already shared in this forum.
And let’s not forget Kigali. Being utterly dismantled by Remco, only to return days later and pulverize the competition as an untouchable force. If that surreal fairytale works for you, keep it.

Ok well, it appears you don't read. Enjoy your unflinching agenda.

 

[thunder60%]

Make your bets for LBL: will Seixas (or other) be able to beat Pog? (even taking into account that Pog is in his bulked up version)

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Make your bets for LBL: will Seixas (or other) be able to beat Pog? (even taking into account that Pog is in his bulked up version)

Bulked up Pogi smashed hilly races (like Strade and RVV) in style. I think his mass is similar to last year. Obviously his w/kg suffer less than additional 2 kilos would suggest (as his power is also boosted).

 

[onefortheroad]

Ok well, it appears you don't read. Enjoy your unflinching agenda.

I read. Some doubts are worth preserving. Even if not the same ones.
You tried, but honestly I don’t have an agenda. One would be decorative.

 

[onefortheroad]

Make your bets for LBL: will Seixas (or other) be able to beat Pog? (even taking into account that Pog is in his bulked up version)

The only realistic bet I can see is on which section or how many kms from the finish the fatal acceleration comes, smooth (seated?!), decisive, and on how many minutes he puts into the runner‑up.

After lingering on that wonderfully bitter defeat, the delicious way he was devoured by WvA in the velodrome, losing LBL is simply unthinkable. It just can’t happen. Not even with a puncture. Not even with a crash.

The only possible scenario would be illness, but for someone who is basically an alien when it comes to nutrition, training, and recovery, what are the odds of that, really?!

 

[Rob5091]

This might be something or not- a rider who was considered better then Pogi, is now Pogi's best bud and masseur - after spending 2 years with his Slovenian compatriot Rozman at Ineos. Was Maestro Baltazar a topic of conversation?
https://peloton.si/pogacarjev-dobri-prijatelj-postal-njegov-serviser/

 

[cnort]

Fair and Pogacar in the same sentence?!
But of course this is subjective, just an opinion. When one rider is suddenly super elite at everything, turning a tactical sport into brute force, questions are raised. Outlier or distortion?
If the answer is “just” better training and nutrition, then it must be some kind of magic, one of a kind recipe. That may comfort some, but to me it’s the most surreal explanation of all.

I was referring specifically to the phenomenon of being good on all courses year-round, of which he is the singular master.

I don't know what cocktail of secret sauces he might be on, but it must be powerful for sure. A motor is a satisfying explanation, if implausible. I don't like to think that UAE have access to some nuclear grade rocket fuel, because cycling would be insufferable with a peloton of Pogacars. At least a motor could be detected because it has to be used in competition and it is either present or not.

Cycling is in a dark place (yet again) and don't see any appetite to catch a big fish. We need the police to get involved.

 

[onefortheroad]

I was referring specifically to the phenomenon of being good on all courses year-round, of which he is the singular master.

I don't know what cocktail of secret sauces he might be on, but it must be powerful for sure. A motor is a satisfying explanation, if implausible. I don't like to think that UAE have access to some nuclear grade rocket fuel, because cycling would be insufferable with a peloton of Pogacars. At least a motor could be detected because it has to be used in competition and it is either present or not.

Cycling is in a dark place (yet again) and don't see any appetite to catch a big fish. We need the police to get involved.

I get your point on the "fairness", I was just poking fun.
You mention the "sauces", but perhaps the alchemy is simpler. We might just be watching a perfect play in a theatre of shadows. After all, it’s easier to manage a silence than to explain a noise.
Perhaps a look behind the curtain is what’s needed.

 

[Unchained]

I get your point on the "fairness", I was just poking fun.
You mention the "sauces", but perhaps the alchemy is simpler. We might just be watching a perfect play in a theatre of shadows. After all, it’s easier to manage a silence than to explain a noise.
Perhaps a look behind the curtain is what’s needed.

This thread has gone in an absolutely incredible direction! And this last assertion is extra, extraordinary! It's easier to manage silence? Said no criminal ever! Can you imagine a worldwide conspiracy that includes Canada, California and Kigali! Everyone with mum is the word! A complete criminal collusion network to not rat out Pogacar or anyone on UAE! A super sports silence network that was agreed to in 2019! Talk about visionaries! Was it the Australians or Californians that conspired first to keep his forever secret!
And people don't talk out of fear? Honor? Money? Still can't figure what Tadej brings to this thousands of people relationship that has everyone remaining silent!!! Absolutely amazing.