Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[SorelyBoy]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NQFFFWes3o4

Rides like this certainly don't help against the motor 'conspiracy'.
Who needs a leadout or hard pace when you can do that?
How easy was that, indeed? HAHAH

Like, seriously, how does anyone look at that and think, ‘Looks totes normal dude, what’s the big deal?’ FFS 😂. Far from the only example too. At least Nibali was hanging onto his team car when he did it.

 

[Divergence]

Being selective in what evidence there is to somehow suggest or even claim that what Pogacar is doing is not particularly extraordinary, is not very convincing. Instead we need to look at all of the evidence available to ascertain whether or not what we are being sold is genuine greatness or something else entirely. Much of this evidence is, no doubt, circumstantial in its nature because it cannot be be otherwise unless and until a whistleblower comes forward to give sworn testimony or at least on or off the record accounts of what may or may not be the facts. Or a drug test is failed. Or a motor detected.

Indeed, given also that he effectively has enjoyed his unprecedented success riding for merely a renamed and more lavishly funded Saunier Duval team, whose history and leadership reputations need no further explanation, a historically aware cycling fan might be forgiven for thinking that our star cyclist’s credibility is already more than a little dubious from the outset.

In law, circumstantial evidence is not “weak.” It’s simply non‑direct. A jury can convict on it if the pattern of facts makes any innocent explanation implausible.

Sport works the same way:

• We know the approximate limits of human physiology.
• We know what elite performance normally looks like.
• We know how rare true outliers are.
• We know the sport’s history of deception.

So when someone performs far above a field of world‑class athletes, the performance itself becomes a data point that demands interpretation. Such evidence, when analysed holistically, provides enough information to strongly suggest, given the overall context of the sport’s history and current state, that Mr Pogacar is at least worthy of very close and sceptical attention. So, what’s the evidence, at least what we definitely know?

Pogačar wasn’t and isn’t beating amateurs — he was and is consistently beating the best in the world. By large margins and across all race types in an era of hyper specialisation. This is the part people often gloss over. We’ve had plenty of examples of that here. He wasn’t outperforming a weak generation. He wasn’t winning by a few seconds. He wasn’t simply “better.” He was:

• Younger
• More explosive
• More versatile
• More consistent
• More dominant across all terrains
• Dominant across the entire racing season
• More resilient under fatigue
• Immune to the impact of bad crashes
• Winning by often huge margins

And, since he turned professional, he was doing it against seasoned, highly trained, physiologically elite professionals and across all types of races across the entire race calendar, not merely targeting his efforts to ensure the best chance of success and guard against fatigue and injury. Able to beat anyone, anywhere at anytime. All the time.

When one rider suddenly appears head and shoulders above a field that is the fastest in history, it is natural — and rational — to ask what explains the gap. Not claim that there is none.

But when someone points out to what explains the gap people just brush it off and continue to believe what they want to believe. The fact is that exceptional human beings do exist.

Like, seriously, how does anyone look at that and think, ‘Looks totes normal dude, what’s the big deal?’ FFS 😂. Far from the only example too. At least Nibali was hanging onto his team car when he did it.

How hard was the pink guy riding?

 

[SorelyBoy]

But when someone points out to what explains the gap people just brush it off and continue to believe what they want to believe. The fact is that exceptional human beings do exist.

How hard was the pink guy riding?

Totally normal then, huh? I bet the guy in pink thought he was going ok up until Pogs switched it up a gear or six.

 

[Divergence]

Totally normal then, huh? I bet the guy in pink thought he was going ok up until Pogs switched it up a gear or six.

No, not normal. Exceptional.
Well, OK then. That explains it. A no name rider going OK on a a climb against Pog is not gonna cut it.

 

[onefortheroad]

So you do not address any of the points I make, and you just repeat what you already believe.
Look at Pog trying to get up to speed once Wout attacked. If that is not contorting the whole body idk what is.
Also, I would like to express my satisfaction that road cycling is where it needs to be in terms of body type. I am very glad that people (Pog) know how to train nowadays and that even on flat-ish courses the best guy is not a bone breaker but a guy who can also climb. It is good to send the big heavy guys to the track.

I do not see the same. WVA is riding the bike like he was about to break the pedals. Pogi is gliding along as if his bike was doing the work.

Just my opinion:
We are losing the beautiful specialization that made cycling a tactical chess match. By erasing the distinction between "climbers" and "rouleurs," the sport is becoming a monotonous display of "super-soldiers" who dominate every terrain, leaving no room for the gritty specialists who used to define the classics.

Oh, please... Are we really supposed to believe that everyone was and is "training wrong" until Tadej showed up? Suggesting that modern nutrition and Zone 2 training suddenly allows a human to sustain ultra power for long distances is a fairytale. At those levels, we're talking about performances that historically and scientifically land in the zone of "suspicious".

One size fits all dominance where the same guy wins everyone everywhere everytime feels artificial. It’s too perfect. When one guy makes world class professionals look like weekend amateurs, it’s not just "fisionomia." It feels like we are watching a different species. If he were just a doped human (old school style), it might actually be more believable than this "pure and clean" dominance.

 

[onefortheroad]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NQFFFWes3o4

Rides like this certainly don't help against the motor 'conspiracy'.
Who needs a leadout or hard pace when you can do that?
How easy was that, indeed? HAHAH

Ahahahah, I didn't even remember how hilarious and shameless this was, especially doing it right to their faces.

Too easy to be believable, what’s more there was zero change in cadence, position or any form of body movement, just a large increase in speed.

Sails away into the distance like he’s on a motorbike. I do wonder how much evidence people need to see before they’ll cop on. Like, seriously, the guy does these weird as looking attacks on the flat and up hills and his body hardly changes its position or looks like it’s putting in any extra effort. Paris Roubaix saw the same thing where he attacked an already flying Van Aert without seeming to be making any effort at all. His bike position was terrible as well, torso like an air brake. Van Aert was twisting himself in knots just to keep up, slamming the pedals so hard I thought he was going to break them.

 

[red_flanders]

Oh, please... Are we really supposed to believe that everyone was and is "training wrong" until Tadej showed up?

I'm curious if anyone on this forum has suggested that? I don't really follow the thread, so genuine question. I'm guessing not, however.

Suggesting that modern nutrition and Zone 2 training suddenly allows a human to sustain ultra power for long distances is a fairytale. At those levels, we're talking about performances that historically and scientifically land in the zone of "suspicious".

Is anyone suggesting his rides aren't suspicious? I think they're wildly suspicious.

Personally I've seen enough insane cycling in my many years following the sport that I'm not convinced someone is using a motor just because they leave everyone in the dust with ease.

I'm not saying it's impossible or even unlikely. But to this point, with the arguments presented, I'm not convinced. I'd wager that's a position held by many others.

 

[onefortheroad]

I'm curious if anyone on this forum has suggested that? I don't really follow the thread, so genuine question. I'm guessing not, however.

Is anyone suggesting his rides aren't suspicious? I think they're wildly suspicious.

Personally I've seen enough insane cycling in my many years following the sport that I'm not convinced someone is using a motor just because they leave everyone in the dust with ease.

I'm not saying it's impossible or even unlikely. But to this point, with the arguments presented, I'm not convinced. I'd wager that's a position held by many others.

You say you're not convinced it's a motor. But are you convinced that human physiology somehow evolved more in the last 3-4 years than in the previous 20-30 (overall)?
Shaving minutes off records held by the most heavily medicated era (doing it consecutively without fading) while claiming it's just the result of optimized protocols may suggest the evolution isn't biological. We are witnessing power levels that don't match the physical effort being shown. Even with the best training and nutrition, I think the math on Pogi just doesn't work.

 

[red_flanders]

You say you're not convinced it's a motor. But are you convinced that human physiology somehow evolved more in the last 3-4 years than in the previous 20-30 (overall)?

I think it hurts your arguments to use straw men to try and make your points. That question is farcical on a couple levels.

Shaving minutes off records held by the most heavily medicated era (doing it consecutively without fading) while claiming it's just the result of optimized protocols may suggest the evolution isn't biological. We are witnessing power levels that don't match the physical effort being shown. Even with the best training and nutrition, I think the math on Pogi just doesn't work.

As I said, I find his performances (and MANY others) unbelievable. I don't buy the zone 2 or nutrition nonsense. However...

"Power levels that don't match the physical effort being shown" is a totally subjective judgement. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not convinced you're right. I certainly have my opinions about the use of motors in the past, there were examples I thought were so visibly egregious as to be comical. I don't find these to be in that realm. It's not as obvious to me. As an aside, I grant that I could be wrong about the previous examples like Froome, Poels, and maybe Cancellara. But I'm fairly convinced some of those performances were motorized. They look quite different to me than this. Could it be that this is just a less blatant level of power being added? Sure. Entirely possible. And I have zero faith in the detection efforts. Maybe they're being done in good faith, maybe not. The "anti-doping" authorities have proven to me to be unworthy of trust or belief.

I guess for me it feels like you're pounding the table with comments to the effect that it's visibly obvious and that there really is no other explanation. That I don't buy at this point. That's all. It's just too unequivocal for me. I'm not saying it can't be motor doping. I'm just not convinced it is.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Poagacar is doing impossible. Skill issue.

 

[cnort]

We are losing the beautiful specialization that made cycling a tactical chess match.

Is that fair? Who other than Pogacar is brilliant in all disciplines? He seems to be a serious outlier, and I don't see it becoming the norm.

I perceive fewer pure climbers but I wonder is it that they struggle with insane speeds on the flat. So yes, less of a chess match, but I think that is some supercharged teams bludgeoning everyone. That's been standard practice for a long time, but seems to be getting more effective.

Maybe it's time for some rule changes to reduce the orchestrated tactics we see. Get rid of race radios and power meters, bring back loose wool jerseys, etc. Oh yes, also ban motors and doping.

 

[ashhutch1997]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NQFFFWes3o4

Rides like this certainly don't help against the motor 'conspiracy'.
Who needs a leadout or hard pace when you can do that?
How easy was that, indeed? HAHAH

I honestly forgot how outrageous this attack was. Switched off as soon as he went.

 

[BubbaChuck]

will it work on sunday.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

will it work on sunday.

Let's not complicate things. The simplest solutions are usually correct.
Teddy will eat a triple portion of porridge in the morning and on Redoute he will say "cya after the race".

 

[bah]

I honestly forgot how outrageous this attack was. Switched off as soon as he went.

Even more so because it didn't even look like an attack; more like he just drifted off the front by accident.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Even more so because it didn't even look like an attack; more like he just drifted off the front by accident.

That’s always been one of my bones of contention. A major one. His attacks don’t look as if he’s trying any harder than usual. They just happen, without any forewarning and without any indication that he’s putting in the effort. Now it wasn’t always like this with him, I’ll give him that. But these post 2023 seated attacks are ultimately very very odd looking.

 

[onefortheroad]

I think it hurts your arguments to use straw men to try and make your points. That question is farcical on a couple levels.

As I said, I find his performances (and MANY others) unbelievable. I don't buy the zone 2 or nutrition nonsense. However...

"Power levels that don't match the physical effort being shown" is a totally subjective judgement. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not convinced you're right. I certainly have my opinions about the use of motors in the past, there were examples I thought were so visibly egregious as to be comical. I don't find these to be in that realm. It's not as obvious to me. As an aside, I grant that I could be wrong about the previous examples like Froome, Poels, and maybe Cancellara. But I'm fairly convinced some of those performances were motorized. They look quite different to me than this. Could it be that this is just a less blatant level of power being added? Sure. Entirely possible. And I have zero faith in the detection efforts. Maybe they're being done in good faith, maybe not. The "anti-doping" authorities have proven to me to be unworthy of trust or belief.

I guess for me it feels like you're pounding the table with comments to the effect that it's visibly obvious and that there really is no other explanation. That I don't buy at this point. That's all. It's just too unequivocal for me. I'm not saying it can't be motor doping. I'm just not convinced it is.

That’s your cartoon version.
It’s beyond the visually absurd logic that hits us in the face every race. There are compelling technical dissections already shared in this forum.
And let’s not forget Kigali. Being utterly dismantled by Remco, only to return days later and pulverize the competition as an untouchable force. If that surreal fairytale works for you, keep it.

 

[onefortheroad]

Is that fair? Who other than Pogacar is brilliant in all disciplines? He seems to be a serious outlier, and I don't see it becoming the norm.

I perceive fewer pure climbers but I wonder is it that they struggle with insane speeds on the flat. So yes, less of a chess match, but I think that is some supercharged teams bludgeoning everyone. That's been standard practice for a long time, but seems to be getting more effective.

Maybe it's time for some rule changes to reduce the orchestrated tactics we see. Get rid of race radios and power meters, bring back loose wool jerseys, etc. Oh yes, also ban motors and doping.

Fair and Pogacar in the same sentence?!
But of course this is subjective, just an opinion. When one rider is suddenly super elite at everything, turning a tactical sport into brute force, questions are raised. Outlier or distortion?
If the answer is “just” better training and nutrition, then it must be some kind of magic, one of a kind recipe. That may comfort some, but to me it’s the most surreal explanation of all.

 

[red_flanders]

That’s your cartoon version.
It’s beyond the visually absurd logic that hits us in the face every race. There are compelling technical dissections already shared in this forum.
And let’s not forget Kigali. Being utterly dismantled by Remco, only to return days later and pulverize the competition as an untouchable force. If that surreal fairytale works for you, keep it.

Ok well, it appears you don't read. Enjoy your unflinching agenda.