Carbon Frames, not always best

[Jean-Christophe]

I am watching the TDF: Specialized, Trek, Pinnarello..etc, your bikes are worthless at high speeds during descents or in the peloton when control is important. It's time to go back to the drawing board!

 

[fatsprintking]

How exactly are you working this out?

 

[Jean-Christophe]

Looking at the ways the pros get in trouble. The other day Geraint Thomas and today Jens voight.

 

[ergmonkey]

Yes, I'm sure the frames had much more to do with this than rims, brakes, tires, and road surfaces. Whenever I fishtail, it's because my frame sucks.

 

[markrosen]

Huh?????? Really??? Would you think it the riders handling skills have more to do with it....

 

[ergmonkey]

Huh?????? Really??? Would you think it the riders handling skills have more to do with it....

That, too. I fishtail because my frame and I both suck.

 

[ambrose]

Right.... This is obviously the first tour where people have crashed... must be the frames then.

 

[ElChingon]

I can only guess that carbon wheels with carbon braking surface might hinder braking performance on a major descents and especially if its wet but I'm guessing as I don't own a set of those and have heard all the complaints.

The new frames? Well maybe all the new aero designs make the bikes descend at much higher speeds due to reduced drag. But somehow I'm not seeing that as a bad thing.

Crazy riders going faster than they should on any type bike, I think has more weight in the matter.

 

[erik saunders]

brakes on road bikes are terrible anyway... road bike brakes pretty much dont stop your bike... but i guess its acceptable to most people, or they dont know its possible to have better brakes... trp mini V or hydros will be the go, and accepted soon...

the frames dont suck as much as the riders who cant pilot a bike... but you have to give maybe some slack for fatigue, and the wind in the mountains on the descents, it can be a big factor even without carbon wheels...

either way, you could just chalk it up to riders falling down being always a part of the sport.

 

[erik saunders]

i just remebered that all that stuff is made in asia, so probably it does suck... so i take my earlier reply back... the uci should get these guys on proper equipment made by white people so we know its good...

 

[Wiesmier]

FWIW I feel there is something in this. Sure, riders crashed before but I do think the new frames are so stiff that perhaps this is not helping their cause in many situations.

 

[brianf7]

Looking at the ways the pros get in trouble. The other day Geraint Thomas and today Jens voight.

That used to happen with steel and alloy frames but some carbon rims with carbon breaks can get hairline cracks and cause a whel to lock.
I aave had the all and still like carbon for racing but check it every time .

Cutting edge tech needs high maintanenance
Maybe the mechanics need more steroids to keep them going.

 

[fatsprintking]

brakes on road bikes are terrible anyway... road bike brakes pretty much dont stop your bike... but i guess its acceptable to most people, or they dont know its possible to have better brakes... trp mini V or hydros will be the go, and accepted soon...

the frames dont suck as much as the riders who cant pilot a bike... but you have to give maybe some slack for fatigue, and the wind in the mountains on the descents, it can be a big factor even without carbon wheels...

either way, you could just chalk it up to riders falling down being always a part of the sport.

Improving the brakes does not help if they are then simply too strong for the tyres. This is the issue with road bikes, you can make much more effective brakes, but they will overcome what the tyres can give you pretty quickly.

I would love for some hipster uni student to come up with a downhill road bike using 125cc GP tryres and disc brakes and then get someone like Thor to give it a burl down Alpe d'Huez, just to see how you would go.

 

[erik saunders]

just to be clear-

i am not saying better brakes will stop riders in the tour from crashing... cuz thats more caused by the fact that they suck at bike piloting, or make errors due to mental fatigue, or road conditions...

but...

theres a lot more room to improve brakes on road bikes in power and modulation... a lot more room to get better performance and shorter stopping distance before you overcome traction provided by tires and lock up your wheels... two obvious examples are hydro discs, and mini-V's which are available on the market and MUCH better...

try them, and then let me know what you think... i weigh 195lbs, if you are also heavy and like to haul all *** down hill, then you will be in a great position to judge... i have tried brakes like this and think they are a huge improvement... i promise you will see them on road bikes in the very near future...

the TRP TTV brakes are out already...

there are some well known wheel brands working on carbon wheels using disc brakes for the road, because it will allow a much lighter rim and incredible braking performance...

 

[krebs303]

I would love for some hipster uni student to come up with a downhill road bike using 125cc GP tryres and disc brakes and then get someone like Thor to give it a burl down Alpe d'Huez, just to see how you would go.

as you wish MLS Gravity Bike

 

[richwagmn]

brakes on road bikes are terrible anyway... road bike brakes pretty much dont stop your bike... but i guess its acceptable to most people, or they dont know its possible to have better brakes... trp mini V or hydros will be the go, and accepted soon...

the frames dont suck as much as the riders who cant pilot a bike... but you have to give maybe some slack for fatigue, and the wind in the mountains on the descents, it can be a big factor even without carbon wheels...

either way, you could just chalk it up to riders falling down being always a part of the sport.

Brakes suck today???? Are you serious? The current generation of brakes crush the brakes of the past. No question.

 

[richwagmn]

I am watching the TDF: Specialized, Trek, Pinnarello..etc, your bikes are worthless at high speeds during descents or in the peloton when control is important. It's time to go back to the drawing board!

Certainly this is a troll?

 

[autologous]

Brakes suck today???? Are you serious? The current generation of brakes crush the brakes of the past. No question.

No question?
I'll take Tilford's experience over yours.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=11932

Saturday, in the NRC race at St. Louis, Brad Huff, right before the first corner, yelled one of his funny, yet pertinent lines. “Now boys, we’ll see who has aluminum and who has carbon.” He likes to break the ice that way, a lot of times, but it got me thinking how bad braking on our race bikes is now compared to before.

I think it is a two fold deal. First, the brakes don’t seem to have as much power as they used to. I think I first noticed this when Shimano went from 8 speed to 9 speed. The brake calipers themselves shed a ton of weight, but the squishiness of the calipers was super apparent. The arms themselves flexed a ton. When I went to Redlands that first year, I put my front 8-sp caliper back on and it worked so much better. I think I left that caliper on for two or three years.

But, the carbon rims have changed the game dramatically, for the worse. Breaking on carbon pretty much sucks. It is very unpredictable. It really depends on the speed that you are going, the temperature, the brake pads you are using, a lot of things. When aluminum was the rim choice, I don’t hardly ever remember going into a tight corner “hot” and mildly panicking because I wasn’t stopping fast enough. Now it seems to be the norm for a lot of the field.

On Saturday, I couldn’t believe how early before the corners that good riders were applying their brakes. I think it must have been to get the water off the rims and get a feel for how much braking they were going to have. I don’t know, but it really threw off my cornering rhythm.

Watching the Tour on television, I am amazed how many guys are falling on descents, in the corners. I have to blame a lot of that on the braking, or lack braking. Carbon rims are so unpredictable. They heat up the pads and sometimes catch when you least expect it.

That last paragraph : go re-watch the video of Thomas locking his rear before his 2nd crash.

 

[Vegan Dave]

I think there may be a valid point with braking on CARBON surfaces, but for sure the brakes themselves are more than sufficient - i can lock my Record Skeleton (dual-pivot front, single rear) whenever i want. Even in the wet - on alloy rims. (Haven't ridden carbon, so can't comment.)

Braking power isn't a concern. Perhaps modulation and surfaces are the real question.

And there's only so much speed you can carry into any given switchback before the tires give way.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

There will be no such thing as rim braked carbon race wheels in the next few years, everything is going disk. I give it 5 years or less for it to make enough sense to the UCI to allow it on the road, it's already in use on the CX circut. The weight argument is null, road DB systems are going to be light enough, not what you see now.

 

[Master50]

RD4
It is obvious that there Is room for improvement and disks offer great potential but I think your timeline is too tight. I remember well Super record and Modolo BRAKES and later Delta brakes. Mostly just speed adjustors. Currently I think Dura Ace calipers are the standard for road brakes and are plenty powerful enough to stop on even very steep roads.
I use record Sleleton and they are strong enough to stop me one fingered on very steep roads. I can't imagine a dual pivot on the rear any more since it is plenty easy to lock them up.
The real issue is modulation on carbon rims and they are unpredictable at best.

 

[bc_hills]

as you wish MLS Gravity Bike

What's with the super narrow handle bars on that bike? Seems a little ridiculous. Hipster style meets dh? Good luck with that cockpit at speed. scary.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

RD4
It is obvious that there Is room for improvement and disks offer great potential but I think your timeline is too tight. I remember well Super record and Modolo BRAKES and later Delta brakes. Mostly just speed adjustors. Currently I think Dura Ace calipers are the standard for road brakes and are plenty powerful enough to stop on even very steep roads.
I use record Sleleton and they are strong enough to stop me one fingered on very steep roads. I can't imagine a dual pivot on the rear any more since it is plenty easy to lock them up.
The real issue is modulation on carbon rims and they are unpredictable at best.

Timeline too tight? It can't happen soon enough! Yeah maybe for the UCI, their concept of time still dates back to when rocks were soft, but they finally pulled their heads out of the sand and legalized for CX use. It's an inevitability that rim brakes will be phased out of road. 5 years or less before they hit the road in force. Modulation and consistency are the the biggest problems that we all know plagues rim brakes on carbon rims, both of these issues are resolved with disk brakes easily.

 

[richwagmn]

No question?
I'll take Tilford's experience over yours.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=11932



That last paragraph : go re-watch the video of Thomas locking his rear before his 2nd crash.

Ok sure. Carbon braking is unpredictable (maybe). How are the calipers to blame for this? Because they're too strong?

Try riding some Shimano 6700 or 7900 calipers. Amazing stopping power. I can't think of anything from the past that even comes to close their stopping power.

 

[richwagmn]

There will be no such thing as rim braked carbon race wheels in the next few years, everything is going disk. I give it 5 years or less for it to make enough sense to the UCI to allow it on the road, it's already in use on the CX circut. The weight argument is null, road DB systems are going to be light enough, not what you see now.

Why would it not be allowed on the road? Is there some safety issue?