Cavendish and the classics?

[auscyclefan94]

I would...

Libertine! You have shown more hate for Cavendish in just this thread than my hate for valverde over the whole time I have been in this forum.

 

[Barrus]

I would...

I don't think it is because of Cav perse. He is a fantastic sprinter and probably the fastest around, but without the train of HTC the sprint stages would not be so boring. It is the system of HTC that drains the life out of races, not Cavendish. Although even the sprints this year where he did not have a real train he could still practically crush his competition in most cases

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't think it is because of Cav perse. He is a fantastic sprinter and probably the fastest around, but without the train of HTC the sprint stages would not be so boring. It is the system of HTC that drains the life out of races, not Cavendish. Although even the sprints this year where he did not have a real train he could still practically crush his competition in most cases

Yup, this is precisely my point. Almost all sprints are boring, and with HTC around they are twenty times as boring.

It's not Cav that gets me annoyed. It's his team being unwilling to even consider letting the break get enough rope to dare to dream, and just hold them at 2 minutes throughout. You may as well hold a 200m time trial and save us all the effort. Cofidis and ISD had to work REALLY hard to get a race out of Turkey since Greipel nearly won 6 stages, and probably would have done if the Columbia train hadn't derailed itself. When we get to .HC and .1 races, my heart sinks when I see they're on the startlist, because good races get ruined.

The problem is, their template works. Yes, it's the same as the Saeco red train, and the Fassa Bortolo express. But those were before my time, or at least before I really knew and understood the sport. But because it works, the other big teams seem to have an interest in copying this template, which only serves to make more stages boring because there are more domestiques being toasted to set up the sprint, meaning more of them are fresher to do it again the following day. And sure, this isn't pro wrestling, so they aren't beholden to entertain me, as long as they keep winning. Other teams are all about the winning. But HTC just seem to take some sadistic glee in surgically removing everything that's entertaining about racing.

To hell with them. I hope the team collapses.

 

[lanternrouge]

Yup, this is precisely my point. Almost all sprints are boring, and with HTC around they are twenty times as boring.

It's not Cav that gets me annoyed. It's his team being unwilling to even consider letting the break get enough rope to dare to dream, and just hold them at 2 minutes throughout. You may as well hold a 200m time trial and save us all the effort. Cofidis and ISD had to work REALLY hard to get a race out of Turkey since Greipel nearly won 6 stages, and probably would have done if the Columbia train hadn't derailed itself. When we get to .HC and .1 races, my heart sinks when I see they're on the startlist, because good races get ruined.

The problem is, their template works. Yes, it's the same as the Saeco red train, and the Fassa Bortolo express. But those were before my time, or at least before I really knew and understood the sport. But because it works, the other big teams seem to have an interest in copying this template, which only serves to make more stages boring because there are more domestiques being toasted to set up the sprint, meaning more of them are fresher to do it again the following day. And sure, this isn't pro wrestling, so they aren't beholden to entertain me, as long as they keep winning. Other teams are all about the winning. But HTC just seem to take some sadistic glee in surgically removing everything that's entertaining about racing.

To hell with them. I hope the team collapses.

Unfortunately, for you, HTC are under no obligation to make races entertaining for your pleasure. They are only interested in winning races, a task they seem to be rather good at. This is professional sport after all.

It may be more interesting for you if the other teams were to counter HTC's tactics which up to now they failed at spectacularly. Their attempts up to now for me have been fascinating and I will continue to watch with interest future developments such as the rival train being constructed at OPL.

 

[boardhanger]

Unfortunately, for you, HTC are under no obligation to make races entertaining for your pleasure. They are only interested in winning races, a task they seem to be rather good at. This is professional sport after all.

It may be more interesting for you if the other teams were to counter HTC's tactics which up to now they failed at spectacularly. Their attempts up to now for me have been fascinating and I will continue to watch with interest future developments such as the rival train being constructed at OPL.

Yes it's most interesting that they attack the winner's ability to win. And not his competetions ability to step up......

 

[veganrob]

Yes it's most interesting that they attack the winner's ability to win. And not his competetions ability to step up......

+1 Cav wins because he can. Is he supposed to let up to let the other guys win one? That will put him out of racing pretty quickly. If he didn't have a train he would be like Robbie, only better. And Robbie was my favorite. Like him or not, Cav is a very talented racer and if he puts his energies to winning more classics, he will. Nobody gave him a chance in MSR and when he won they all gave George all the credit. Come on.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Unfortunately, for you, HTC are under no obligation to make races entertaining for your pleasure. They are only interested in winning races, a task they seem to be rather good at. This is professional sport after all.

It may be more interesting for you if the other teams were to counter HTC's tactics which up to now they failed at spectacularly. Their attempts up to now for me have been fascinating and I will continue to watch with interest future developments such as the rival train being constructed at OPL.

I even pointed out that this isn't pro wrestling so they're not beholden to entertain me.

I don't care if other teams are able to counter their tactics, because it would still be bunch sprints, which I don't care about.

Danilo Hondo on his own wrecked the Columbia train in the 4th stage of the TDF, so it can be done, but all too often teams are just willing to let Columbia boss it until the final stages so they can get to the finish fresh, then Columbia are in the position they need to be and aren't going to be bullied out of it. And then if they aren't in the position they need to be they can bully their way back into it because they have the firepower.

And besides, Cav would win the sprints without a train, we've all seen this, so why do they need to toast GC riders in the sprint train by stage 4, or ask people who are on the GC podium to work in the sprint train for a green jersey win that's almost a formality, one day before a huge mountaintop finish?

HTC are very good at what they do. Unfortunately, what they do is suck the life and soul out of races, so as far as I'm concerned, the sooner they and their ilk die off the better. That's why pancake flat races need to have some kind of obstacle near the finish, like a 3rd cat climb, an exposed area where crosswinds could happen or a rough or narrow surface, because otherwise they're a formality and we may as well not bother with the first 180km.

 

[veganrob]

Of course you are getting off subject now and appear to be merely expressing your dislike for HTC and their race tactics. However be careful what you wish for. Remember in 09 tour HTC destoying the peloton when they hit the crosswinds in the one stage

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course you are getting off subject now and appear to be merely expressing your dislike for HTC and their race tactics. However be careful what you wish for. Remember in 09 tour HTC destoying the peloton when they hit the crosswinds in the one stage

Yup. But then, I don't mind them when they do something interesting, rather than "let break get 2 minutes, toast guys on the front, stick 8 men in the leadout, set the pace so high no attacks are even possible, then set up the fastest man in the race from the best possible spot to win easily". It's just that they do something interesting about twice a year.

 

[veganrob]

Yup. But then, I don't mind them when they do something interesting, rather than "let break get 2 minutes, toast guys on the front, stick 8 men in the leadout, set the pace so high no attacks are even possible, then set up the fastest man in the race from the best possible spot to win easily". It's just that they do something interesting about twice a year.

I agree it does not make for interesting racing, however that is not their fault. They are supposed to win. But if you really want to get away from boring racing, and I do too, change the rules. Ban radios!!! That will bring about more exciting racing. And we have talked about that on another thread.
And as far as Cav, he can and has won without a train as you say. One can dislike the mans attitude, but people should not underestimate his abilities. He was slow getting into form this year because of his dental surgeries. Watch out for him.

 

[simo1733]

I dont think he'll ever be able to win paris roubaix or races like that... I think he is too far behind the other guys in this area and it would take too much to change this.. He was dropped in the commonwealth games :S he didnt have a team but the race was dead flat and it was the commonwealth games... he also didnt finish the world championships.. I think if these races were too tough for him paris roubaix will be too.

In both the commenwealth games and the worlds he was in a weak team and every other team was intent on dropping him before the finnish

 

[boardhanger]

Yup. But then, I don't mind them when they do something interesting, rather than "let break get 2 minutes, toast guys on the front, stick 8 men in the leadout, set the pace so high no attacks are even possible, then set up the fastest man in the race from the best possible spot to win easily". It's just that they do something interesting about twice a year.

If HTC doesn't do it another team would. Thats cycling my friend. That's like me saying "I hate LaVuelta because spanish riders from small spanish teams go on the attack" which always fail. It's so predictable......but I don't

 

[lanternrouge]

HTC are very good at what they do. Unfortunately, what they do is suck the life and soul out of races, so as far as I'm concerned, the sooner they and their ilk die off the better. That's why pancake flat races need to have some kind of obstacle near the finish, like a 3rd cat climb, an exposed area where crosswinds could happen or a rough or narrow surface, because otherwise they're a formality and we may as well not bother with the first 180km.

Okay so you don't like bunch sprints. Tough, plenty of people do. It's also an integral part of racing so you had better lump it or watch something else.

Or are we all supposed to cater for your taste?

 

[lanternrouge]

In both the commenwealth games and the worlds he was in a weak team and every other team was intent on dropping him before the finnish

It was Cav, a postman and an electrician vs team Australia!

 

[El Pistolero]

Okay so you don't like bunch sprints. Tough, plenty of people do. It's also an integral part of racing so you had better lump it or watch something else.

Or are we all supposed to cater for your taste?

Yes, plenty of people like bunch sprints. Just no one that likes the 200km of boring racing that precedes it...

 

[palmerq]

In both the commenwealth games and the worlds he was in a weak team and every other team was intent on dropping him before the finnish

yeah it's a good thing no one will try to drop him in the classics :S...... David millar could hang on in the commonwealth and he had no team with him... and millar isnt that big a threat to these classics.....

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes, plenty of people like bunch sprints. Just no one that likes the 200km of boring racing that precedes it...

+1.

I don't much like bunch sprints, but there are people that do, and they are an integral part of racing. The Worlds went to a sprint from a(n admittedly reduced) bunch and was very exciting. Stage 19 of the 2009 TDF was a great sprint stage. But there needs to be something that gives the previous 200km impetus to make you watch it, rather than just tune in for the last couple of kilometres. The break could be given enough rope to think that it's possible that they might be able to make it, rather than holding them at a small amount, close enough to make it clear that the catch will just come whenever the péloton wants, but not close enough to encourage others to attack and bridge the gap. There could be something that makes it feasible for riders like Gilbert or Chavanel to think that they could stay away on a late attack. There needs to be something that makes the viewer believe that there's a possibility of something other than a bunch sprint happening, otherwise it's worthless making the stage 200km long, you may as well have a 10km lead-in to the sprint.

There are three ways to improve sprint stages from the interminable bore that are super-controlled stages like in California or the Tour de France:

1) obstacles late on in the stage, small climbs, wind exposure, dirt tracks, cobbles, something to disrupt the rhythm of the péloton and enable unpredictability so that the sprint teams have to work for it
2) much shorter stages, so as to cut the boring time down and mean fresher riders challenging the sprints
3) much longer stages, so as to put pressure on the domestiques and tire them out (which then makes for less predictable stages later on), plus put many sprinters past their threshold (witness the number that get spat out the back door in San Remo).

Sprints aren't an inherent problem. But the sprinters' teams should have to work for them rather than it just being a free stage, and too much of course design at present makes it far too easy for teams to set out at the start of the day knowing what the result will be, and thus sit happily behind as HTC ride the whole day on the front in a comfortable rhythm.

 

[La Pandera]

So Cav opened his big mouth again. Well, nothing new, still the same cocky attitude. Blah blah blah. I dont think HTC has a cobble train express that would deliver him to the 200m sign so the chances of Cav winning PR is similar to Floyd Landis wining "again" TDF.....ZERO

Maybe you should reread Ingsve's post because it explains exactly what Cavendish said. IMO there's nothing wrong with him setting new goals. Unlike some of his other statements, in this one he is simply being wishful. I personally don't see him being resourceful enough to win P-R or RVV. Winning MSR is an entirely different animal than P-R and RVV.

 

[La Pandera]

i think he meant he wants to race in those classics as a genuine contender, not necessarily win them. he said it clearly he wants to feel the gritty side of racing. this guy wants to suffer. maybe he wants to have the feeling of winning after hours of suffering, kinda like he earns and deserves the win. not after being protected for the whole race and come out just outside 200meters to the line.

maybe he envies the sprinters of freire, boonen, hushovd etc, who really know how to suffer in select parcours.

i hated him but now i hate him less. he's starting to show that he can race the old fashion way.

No, he said he wouldn't mind adding a P-R or RVV to his palmares in the future if I'm not mistaken.

 

[La Pandera]

I don't know, but for some reason I feel Cavendish if finally feeling the pressure of competition. I remember in an interview at the Tour last year, he was asked who he felt was his most feared rival in the sprints. or something amongst that line and he said he didn't fear anybody. I read an article on Velonews today where he actually said he was naming Petacchi as his main rival. Also, he didn't trash Garmin on another article.

He's probably seeing that he's not the best anymore and probably wants to give something else a try.

Not the best what? I'm not sure I understand that last sentence. He's made it known publicly that he usually only sprints at something like 85% and still dominates so I doubt he's having doubts about his continued success in the sprints. Was your post missing one of these: ?

He's simply looking for new challenges based on the supposed ease of his sprinting successes. I have never found him to be one to give his opponents any credit for challenging him. He is quite confident that he is the world's top sprinter, that hasn't changed.

 

[The Hitch]

+1.

I don't much like bunch sprints, but there are people that do, and they are an integral part of racing. The Worlds went to a sprint from a(n admittedly reduced) bunch and was very exciting. Stage 19 of the 2009 TDF was a great sprint stage.

This year Giro d italia stage 5. Best sprint stage ever.

Ok it didnt end in a sprint, but it might as well have.

Thats the kind of sprint stages we want to see. Where the break is close to hanging on. Where David Harmonn calls the winner from the break before realising he made a miscalculation, and the sprinters come back for the win. Where people attack out the bunch like Brajkovic in Dauphine stage Haedo won.

I cant remember which race it was but this year in one of the PT races 2 days in a row the break had a 1 minute lead going into the final 10k.

And in this, just as in the Giro stage 5, the excitement comes with looking at the approaching terrain, hoping its not too flat, hoping its not too windy, studying the roundabouts hoping the peloton goes wide, loses some time. And if the break gets caught, then you get to enjoy a sprint.

 

[La Pandera]

He's a boring, predictable sprinter. And?. Then he fancys the classics and gets destroyed for saying that........I find his rivals boring and predictable too...

No one said Cav is boring, just that the sprints have become boring and predictable with Cav dominating as he does.

 

[hfer07]

Cav has a long way to go to even think he's suitable enough for the Classics-the Cobbles in particular.--As much as I dislike him-it would be unwise to deny his talent as a sprinter, but to become a Classic's rider, he's going to need time to develop the strength, the knowledge, tactics, experience, and ultimately the team to favor his bid for them. He well could become in time like Hushov, whose sprinting abilities have faded over the years as he became stronger.

 

[maltiv]

Cav has a long way to go to even think he's suitable enough for the Classics-the Cobbles in particular.--As much as I dislike him-it would be unwise to deny his talent as a sprinter, but to become a Classic's rider, he's going to need time to develop the strength, the knowledge, tactics, experience, and ultimately the team to favor his bid for them. He well could become in time like Hushov, whose sprinting abilities have faded over the years as he became stronger.

Hushovd is a u23 world champion in time trial and he was 7th in the olympic tt at the age of 22. Cavendish on the other hand is nothing but a sprinter, and he will never be anything else.

 

[Mambo95]

Hushovd is a u23 world champion in time trial and he was 7th in the olympic tt at the age of 22. Cavendish on the other hand is nothing but a sprinter, and he will never be anything else.

He's a double World Champion on the track. He's won a couple of prologues too.