Changing a flat on side of road using tubular tape

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I've got a garage full of tubular wheels and tires that I would likely never get rid of, but the Masi I rode last year had tubeless Dura Ace wheels, so in keeping with my tendency to at least try the new technology, I rode them. The DA's are the lightest wheels I've got, and since I'm not getting any younger and the hills are steep around here...
They are the best thing I've used in a clincher, and are almost as good as the tubs, but still, I'd rather have the tubs for the aforementioned reasons.

I think I'd be more apt to try tubeless out if there were more tire choice, and they're not that light either, average 50g over tubulars. I'm usually not a gram counter, but when it comes to tires I do go light as possible, especially for climbing wheels. I have Veloflex Record tubulars on a climbing set which weigh in at 100g/per tire less than most all the tubeless tires available. Almost 12 years of tubeless on the road and only a handful of tires to choose from, what's the hold up?

 

[TexPat]

I think I'd be more apt to try tubeless out if there were more tire choice, and they're not that light either, average 50g over tubulars. I'm usually not a gram counter, but when it comes to tires I do go light as possible, especially for climbing wheels. I have Veloflex Record tubulars on a climbing set which weigh in at 100g/per tire less than most all the tubeless tires available. Almost 12 years of tubeless on the road and only a handful of tires to choose from, what's the hold up?

You'll get no argument from me that tubs are anything but superior.
My guess on why tubeless hasn't been widely adapted is economic. The tires require an expensive carbon fibre bead to keep them on at high pressure. This year sees the arrival of several new options from Bontrager, Hutchinson, Maxxis and Continental (I think?). I've just been given a set of Bontrager's higher end model, which looks identical to the Fusion 2 and is made in France.
Those available in NZ retail for over a hundred bucks each, which is at the top end of the price scale. For wider acceptance, there needs to be a more durable and cheaper training tire.
For race wheels, the DA's are a good option for someone who has a fear of tubs, but wants some of the benefits. What I like most is the ride at 85psi, which really adds grip and comfort on the poor roads in Wellington. That's not a pressure I'd try on a clincher with an inner tube.
OT--RDV, I've sent you a PM.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

You'll get no argument from me that tubs are anything but superior.
My guess on why tubeless hasn't been widely adapted is economic. The tires require an expensive carbon fibre bead to keep them on at high pressure. This year sees the arrival of several new options from Bontrager, Hutchinson, Maxxis and Continental (I think?). I've just been given a set of Bontrager's higher end model, which looks identical to the Fusion 2 and is made in France.
Those available in NZ retail for over a hundred bucks each, which is at the top end of the price scale. For wider acceptance, there needs to be a more durable and cheaper training tire.
For race wheels, the DA's are a good option for someone who has a fear of tubs, but wants some of the benefits. What I like most is the ride at 85psi, which really adds grip and comfort on the poor roads in Wellington. That's not a pressure I'd try on a clincher with an inner tube.
OT--RDV, I've sent you a PM.

I'm certain that Hutch makes the higher end Bontrager tires. Oddly enough I've never been a fan of Hutch rubber, and tried them all, every last one. Always found their tires kinda squirmy. Vittoria, Veloflex, Conti. In that order.

 

[STODRR]

so what is the consensus or your opinion on tape versus glue. I use the tape with not problem but I am not sure about how often it should be redone or it is as good as glue.

 

[veganrob]

Can't speak about caffelatex, but I've not had any issues with my three year old Vittoria Paves, nor the Corsas, and Stan's sealant. Think Stan's has a very negligible amount of ammonia; so little that no MSD certificate is required. Have a look here:http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/12/technical-faq/technical-faq-with-lennard-zinn-more-thoughts-on-sealants-tires-and-rims_152967
Back when I was making my own concoction with liquid latex and using it with mtb tires, a few mishaps occurred, but never with Stan's.

You are most likely correct re Stan's. I use it for my mtb conversions and road tubeless and even my tubi's with no problems. Since there has been a couple articles about using Stan's in tubi's i just don't use it for customers to avoid any issues.

 

[veganrob]

so what is the consensus or your opinion on tape versus glue. I use the tape with not problem but I am not sure about how often it should be redone or it is as good as glue.

I will only glue, about 100 wheels a year. But i won't offer an opinion on tape as I don't use it, except that the pro's glue.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

so what is the consensus or your opinion on tape versus glue. I use the tape with not problem but I am not sure about how often it should be redone or it is as good as glue.

Have used both and they do the same thing very well, prefer glue because it's what I'm used to. If you do it right the first time no need to redo it. You can always test your mounting job by flexing the tire away from the rim a bit, if you messed up you'll see gaps, if not you're golden.

 

[TexPat]

Only glue. And only Mastik.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Only glue. And only Mastik.

Glue only, tape is for nancy's...Panaracer my favorite followed by Vittoria

 

[Bustedknuckle]

+1 Still one of the best things about tubulars is the safety feature of not rolling off the rim with a flat. Favorite example is the 95 Worlds last couple kilometers, the podium would've looked much different had Olano been riding clinchers. Hell,,, early this spring out on a training ride I acquired a slow leak in my front tire (clincher) on a gravel road which I didn't notice until too late, got back on to asphalt made a hard right and my tire just rolled right off ruining the rim too. So I clearly hit the deck after that, made me realize what needed to be done so I rode tubulars the majority of the time for the rest of the season, no flats.

Feel like there's been somewhat of a renaissance of tubulars lately. Always a constant with the pro ranks, but the tubular system is starting to make sense with even the general cycling public, performance riders, what have you. Maybe you could confirm this too Bustedknuckle as a fellow wheel slinger, on my end I've definitely seen a rise in tubular wheel sales the last couple of years.

Definately. Tubular sales have never been higher for me for 2 reasons. Lots of carbon tubular rims(carbon clinchers are dum..weigh the same as an aluminum counterpart), plus many want to try them cuz they really ride WELL with small penalty. Another reason is most bike shops around here don't carry the tires nor the glue nor the expertise...

I see no reason to ride a clincher. The ONLY advantage is that you can REPAIR the tube on the road. And before you ask, I've had 2 flats in one ride twice in 27 years, riding tubulars. And tubeless with either a tubeless specific wheel or tape and goop and such..no thanks.

This time of year I put Stan's in(lots of junk on the roads) and the wee bit of ammonia does nothing to latex tubes(even tho I use Conti Sprinters exclusively).

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Definately. Tubular sales have never been higher for me for 2 reasons. Lots of carbon tubular rims(carbon clinchers are dum..weigh the same as an aluminum counterpart), plus many want to try them cuz they really ride WELL with small penalty. Another reason is most bike shops around here don't carry the tires nor the glue nor the expertise...

I see no reason to ride a clincher. The ONLY advantage is that you can REPAIR the tube on the road. And before you ask, I've had 2 flats in one ride twice in 27 years, riding tubulars. And tubeless with either a tubeless specific wheel or tape and goop and such..no thanks.

This time of year I put Stan's in(lots of junk on the roads) and the wee bit of ammonia does nothing to latex tubes(even tho I use Conti Sprinters exclusively).

I don't know that I'd go so far to call them dumb, the weights of carbon clinchers are coming down since most mfg's are moving away from the alloy rim with carbon cap, full carbon now. I have a 38mm deep full carbon clincher rim here that weighs the same as an Open Pro. However I do agree that carbon wheels should be tubular, especially if they're being raced, their intended use. Even my tubular classics wheels are almost completely gone, only have a few Ambrosio Nemesis left in 36h.

Couldn't agree with you more about the mess of tubeless, If it's more labor intensive than a tubular why bother. For MTB I get it, still haven't been completely sold for road use. And in the clincher realm it's funny how all the rim and wheel mfg's are jumping on the 23mm wide rims and boasting how they "ride like tubulars" and tubeless say the same "like tubulars", clincher tires with higher tpi counts and calling them "open tubulars". Well, if tubulars are always the benchmark then just ride 'em... Often imitated, never equaled...

See you in a couple weeks Bustedknuckle, I'm moving to Denver on the 30th, probably go up to Boulder and pay you a visit the following week!!! Happy Festivus!!!

 

[Black Dog]

And in the clincher realm it's funny how all the rim and wheel mfg's are jumping on the 23mm wide rims and boasting how they "ride like tubulars" and tubeless say the same "like tubulars", clincher tires with higher tpi counts and calling them "open tubulars". Well, if tubulars are always the benchmark then just ride 'em... Often imitated, never equaled...

I have been in Tubulars and Clinchers for 25 years of riding and racing. I used the think that Tubulars rode better and offered good resilance with flats during a race, but were a pain in the *** and I rode Clinchers for training. That all changed with the 23mm wide clincher rim. The ride is equal to tubulars in every way and I would say perhaps better in terms of cornering, given the tire profile. In terms of the rolling resistance there is no real difference and the data shows that.

Arguments over a few grams are red herrings. A few hundred grams adds up to very, very, very little time savings on even the longest climbs. The bike and rider's mass must be added and a 100 grams as a percentage of the total is insignificant.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I have been in Tubulars and Clinchers for 25 years of riding and racing. I used the think that Tubulars rode better and offered good resilance with flats during a race, but were a pain in the *** and I rode Clinchers for training. That all changed with the 23mm wide clincher rim. The ride is equal to tubulars in every way and I would say perhaps better in terms of cornering, given the tire profile. In terms of the rolling resistance there is no real difference and the data shows that.

Arguments over a few grams are red herrings. A few hundred grams adds up to very, very, very little time savings on even the longest climbs. The bike and rider's mass must be added and a 100 grams as a percentage of the total is insignificant.

Been testing the Velocity A23 for a solid year now and I'd have to say they're great if you only run 23c tires, what troubles me were the outrageous claims that especially HED made about performance 3mm makes. They even had to rewrite the description because they couldn't back it up with real data, just making stuff up as they went along. Handling did get better when paired with 23c tire because you need less psi to get to optimal pressure and the contact patch became wider, like a tubular (there it is again). But as soon as you go to a 28 or bigger that same 'lightbulb' shape is back and really haven't achieved much in terms of going to a wider rim. A clincher is still a clincher even with the wider profile, still vulnerable to pinch flats, which I got early this spring on those wheels with 25c tires. Looking back in time I can say that over the years I average 1 flat a year on clinchers, 1 every 3-5 years on tubulars, been as long as 6. For me the extra work it takes to run tubulars , which isn't much, is well worth the trouble for piece of mind.

 

[TexPat]

Been testing the Velocity A23 for a solid year now and I'd have to say they're great if you only run 23c tires, what troubles me were the outrageous claims that especially HED made about performance 3mm makes. They even had to rewrite the description because they couldn't back it up with real data, just making stuff up as they went along. Handling did get better when paired with 23c tire because you need less psi to get to optimal pressure and the contact patch became wider, like a tubular (there it is again). But as soon as you go to a 28 or bigger that same 'lightbulb' shape is back and really haven't achieved much in terms of going to a wider rim. A clincher is still a clincher even with the wider profile, still vulnerable to pinch flats, which I got early this spring on those wheels with 25c tires. Looking back in time I can say that over the years I average 1 flat a year on clinchers, 1 every 3-5 years on tubulars, been as long as 6. For me the extra work it takes to run tubulars , which isn't much, is well worth the trouble for piece of mind.

I agree with this almost entirely, with the primary weakness of clinchers being the dreaded pinch flat; hence, my assertion that tubeless road set ups are an improvement especially for those who have an irrational fear of glue. of course tubulars are better in every other way.

 

[veganrob]

I like the ride quality of road tubeless far more than clinchers. Less rolling resistance, better cornering. A latex tube in a clincher helps a bit, but why spend the extra money for that? Messy tubeless? They are not a mess at all and haven't flatted with 1200 miles on them.
Carbon clinchers, make no sense. Terrible harsh ride, no weight savings. Running tubeless helps the ride but still heavy. On a flat/rolling course ok, but not climbing. Good for triathletes.
Tubular is still the best if you are not afraid of them. Ride quality, handling still superior.

 

[Notso Swift]

Take Note:>

Clincher Cons:

Cannot inflate with as much tire pressure increasing roll resistance – some would debate if higher tire pressure makes a difference.

What is interesting to note also from the above is - some would debate if higher tire pressure makes a difference. WOULD DEBATE ? Where is the analytical data to support this Debate.


Tubular Pros:

Better rolling resistance due to higher inflation limit.

In all reality there probably are not much difference Between Tubulars and Clinchers in regard to rolling resistance.
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But if You add rider weight into the above equation that complicates matters even further. Plus smooth and roughly surfaced roads.

There are a lot of things that effect the rolling resistance of Tires.

I saw some research, I am guessing it would have been early 90's in a US mag (I am in Australia, and at that age I couldn't afford many imported Mags once I had bought Winning ), saying that the "optimum drop" for a tyre loaded was 12% of its height, On that basis most tyres were very over inflated for the weight they were supporting (being different front and back)

I suppose it is also worth noting that this was the time that Kevlar beaded Clinchers and hook rims were becoming main stream meaning 120 psi was realistic (I remember "optimum" being in the 90 range for a 85kg bike rider, which I was... but then sub 9kg bikes were "pure racing" back then...)

Now, what is optimum? Is it grip in a linear or lateral sense, or is it rolling resistance, puncture resistance , or is it a subjective combination? Honestly this is way too long ago for me to remember!

All I know is my 20 year old GP4's that are less aero less stiff and weigh more than my 32mm Alu Clinches still feel good (Though I admit 95% of my racing and training is on the Clinchers) and my Xmas wheels and new race wheels are Carbon Tubs (Reynolds DVT's )

 

[US Patent Exploding Cyclist]

A somewhat related question to using tubular tape and glue at the same time.

For next cross season I was planning on running tubulars and, when checking online for any specific mounting requirements, found all of the tutorials using both glue and tape. In this thread that was mentioned to be a bad thing. So is there something different about cross tubular mounting that you need to have both?

 

[Notso Swift]

Can't really say but I do remember that you shouldn't mix glue types (brands) based on potential compatability issues. Maybe the same thing?
This could be a wives tale but it is something that I have always done because I was told too

 

[Notso Swift]

Tubular recommendations

Actually I am going to throw something else out there for people to give their opinions on
Which tyre do people recommend?

I have always used Conti's, (lately Competition 22's), I am happy enough with them but I honestly don't know because I haven't tried much else

What about others, people make your opinions known, subjectiveness is acceptable!
Thinking Dugast, Schwalbe, Veloflex, Vittoria, Tufo, FMB, Vredestein anything, BUT it needs to be a good road race tyre, it is for my new Carbon wheels, I have thrown some old tyres on just so I could ride them, but I need a new set because a the others are shagged spares that should have been thrown out, definately not race worthy.

60% of my races are crits, good smooth surfaces, the others are short handicaps typically on crappy Australian country roads, coarse open chip bitumen, really dead and heavy

 

[Bikemonkey]

I've not found anything that beats a Vitoria Corsa CX as a road racing tub.

.....and regarding mixing glue and tape, I've never had a problem when I have been forced into mixing them, but by preference have found continental tub cemment on both tub and rim to be the best.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

A somewhat related question to using tubular tape and glue at the same time.

For next cross season I was planning on running tubulars and, when checking online for any specific mounting requirements, found all of the tutorials using both glue and tape. In this thread that was mentioned to be a bad thing. So is there something different about cross tubular mounting that you need to have both?

Yep, lots on online places say use tape and glue on cross tubies but IME, glue only works fine. Tape makes it more messy when combined with glue when ya gotta change the tire.

 

[TexPat]

I've not found anything that beats a Vitoria Corsa CX as a road racing tub.

Yep, the Corsa CX gets my vote, too.

 

[veganrob]

I've not found anything that beats a Vitoria Corsa CX as a road racing tub.

Yep, the Corsa CX gets my vote, too.

+1 on the EVO CX.

I also don't think tape with glue is necessary for cross. Especially not on 303's.

 

[runninboy]

I've not found anything that beats a Vitoria Corsa CX as a road racing tub.

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another vote for Corsa CX. great feel and good puncture resistance in my experience,

 

[ontheroaddave]

My vote is on Challenge Forte (300tpi @ 265g) tubs or maybe Criteriums (300tpi @ 260g)for you. 60% crits is what I race and I love these. Forte for the fall/winter and Criteriums for the races and summer.

These are one of the last companies that avoid any vulcanisation and are truely hand made. Veloflex and Dugast (in order) would be my next votes.

I like to hear about what racers use and this is only my own opinion