Kirsan Iljumzjinov beat Kasparov in the presidental election for Fide today. For most of us that follow the game of chess it is a slight embarassment that the president for the world chess organisation is a corrupt, mad buddhist that has been supposedly obducted by aliens atleast 1 time... :(:eek:
 

Luigi_Max

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Yes, Kirsan's way of doing chess politics is about as legitimate as black claiming they won a game after 1.e4 Qxe1.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Luigi_Max said:
Yes, Kirsan's way of doing chess politics is about as legitimate as black claiming they won a game after 1.e4 Qxe1.
and kasparov standing for the top spot was not about politics ?

he tried to own fide and failed when he was a prodigy player. he split it and failed again and again after his retirement.

any layman in the west who has no ferking idea what the game of chess is about would hear the name kasparov ONLY in connection with his political crap.

his handsome defeat at the hands of some 'whacky asian '(110 to 61) , once again i must add, is the testimony that this half-armenian-half-jew is as unremarkable a politician as he is an incomparable chess player.

incomparable ? nah...fisher was greater and our nordic prodigy carlsen may prove as well. carlsen just plays chess and does not give a crap about politics.
 

Luigi_Max

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python said:
and kasparov standing for the top spot was not about politics ?

he tried to own fide and failed when he was a prodigy player. he split it and failed again and again after his retirement.

any layman in the west who has no ferking idea what the game of chess is about would hear the name kasparov ONLY in connection with his political crap.

his handsome defeat at the hands of some 'whacky asian '(110 to 61) , once again i must add, is the testimony that this half-armenian-half-jew is as unremarkable a politician as he is an incomparable chess player.

incomparable ? nah...fisher was greater and our nordic prodigy carlsen may prove as well. carlsen just plays chess and does not give a crap about politics.
I said nothing about Kasparov or his bid, for all I know it might have been corrupt as well, not that I am alleging it was corrupt. I just have not followed this election for FIDE president at all. My understanding is he has been forced out of politics in Russia and he said earlier this year when he was in Australia he was even staying away from Russia. Not sure if that has changed.

Please read what I said exactly, I said the Kirsan way of doing chess politics, not just that he is involved in chess politics, but that he does it the wrong way. I do not care that he is Asian at all.

As far as whether Kasparov is the greatest of all time, my opinion, as a extremely weak chess player who is no real position to really judge, is probably Fischer was a better and perhaps as a talent Morphy was something special. Carlsen is extremely impressive as well but we probably need to wait until further into his career to make a complete judgement on him.
 
python said:
and kasparov standing for the top spot was not about politics ?

he tried to own fide and failed when he was a prodigy player. he split it and failed again and again after his retirement.

any layman in the west who has no ferking idea what the game of chess is about would hear the name kasparov ONLY in connection with his political crap.

his handsome defeat at the hands of some 'whacky asian '(110 to 61) , once again i must add, is the testimony that this half-armenian-half-jew is as unremarkable a politician as he is an incomparable chess player.

incomparable ? nah...fisher was greater and our nordic prodigy carlsen may prove as well. carlsen just plays chess and does not give a crap about politics.
That is - at best - a weird way to refer to someone.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Luigi_Max said:
I said nothing about Kasparov or his bid, for all I know it might have been corrupt as well, not that I am alleging it was corrupt. I just have not followed this election for FIDE president at all. My understanding is he has been forced out of politics in Russia and he said earlier this year when he was in Australia he was even staying away from Russia. Not sure if that has changed.

Please read what I said exactly, I said the Kirsan way of doing chess politics, not just that he is involved in chess politics, but that he does it the wrong way. I do not care that he is Asian at all.

As far as whether Kasparov is the greatest of all time, my opinion, as a extremely weak chess player who is no real position to really judge, is probably Fischer was a better and perhaps as a talent Morphy was something special. Carlsen is extremely impressive as well but we probably need to wait until further into his career to make a complete judgement on him.
iuidji, i do not discount what you said...i just feel that kasparov was and still is every bit as mired in the dirty kitchen of chess politics as kirsan.

at one point i was kasparov's fan when his battles with karpov stood for liberating chess from the soviet domination. later, when he went into politics, not just in chess, i felt he was doing it out of personal, narcissistic motives and revenge. huge egos are part of many outstanding people...his ego imo is beyond healthy. i once met him, as a spectator, and that experience strengthened my opinion of him. i dont believe he is a gentlemen.
 

Luigi_Max

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I will add. I actually agree Kasparov is not some great politician but that has nothing to do with what just happened at the latest FIDE presidential election. It might actually be impossible to win that election without being totally and utterly corrupt. It is not anything like a fair election.
 

Luigi_Max

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Eshnar said:
Fisher could have been greater. Too bad he didn't bother.
Fischer was definitely a flawed genius, but I doubt he actually failed to play at his highest strength when he did play. Yes he quit chess early and perhaps it would have been Fischer - Kasparov matches, not Karpov - Kasparov matches we had in the 80s, however that is speculation.

And I am not sure I would describe what happened with Fischer as him not bothering as though it was a rational decision because he wanted to do something else with his life. There was far more wrong with Fischer than that.
 
Luigi_Max said:
Fischer was definitely a flawed genius, but I doubt he actually failed to play at his highest strength when he did play. Yes he quit chess early and perhaps it would have been Fischer - Kasparov matches, not Karpov - Kasparov matches we had in the 80s, however that is speculation.
that was basically my point... He surely was one of the best ever, but saying he was better than Kasparov is just pure speculation. And greater, hell no.
Luigi_Max said:
And I am not sure I would describe what happened with Fischer as him not bothering as though it was a rational decision because he wanted to do something else with his life. There was far more wrong with Fischer than that.
I'm not sure we can describe any of his out-of-the-board decisions as 'rational' :D
 

Luigi_Max

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python said:
iuidji, i do not discount what you said...i just feel that kasparov was and still is every bit as mired in the dirty kitchen of chess politics as kirsan.

at one point i was kasparov's fan when his battles with karpov stood for liberating chess from the soviet domination. later, when he went into politics, not just in chess, i felt he was doing it out of personal, narcissistic motives and revenge. huge egos are part of many outstanding people...his ego imo is beyond healthy. i once met him, as a spectator, and that experience strengthened my opinion of him. i dont believe he is a gentlemen.
You have one up on me, I have never met him. I however did once read a book on him, perhaps it was a biography, cannot really remember. However the one thing in the book that I still remember is a story about Kasparov going swimming with a friend. Apparently they went swimming in a lake and swam side by side for quite a while until they both were getting quite tired but Kasparov refused to turn around as swim back. It was not until it dawned on the friend that Kasparov wanted to win the swim and the friend dropped back and let Kasparov go ahead. Only then did Kasparov agree to turn around. Kasparov had to prove he was the stronger swimmer, that he won this swim. Speaks to the ego you talk about. The ego that was probably the reason that he quit chess. He did not want to reach the point where he was no longer considered the best player in the world so he quit before it happened.
 

Luigi_Max

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Eshnar said:
that was basically my point... He surely was one of the best ever, but saying he was better than Kasparov is just pure speculation. And greater, hell no.

I'm not sure we can describe any of his out-of-the-board decisions as 'rational' :D
I am not sure it is pure speculation for some one of a very high playing strength to look at Fischer and Kasparov's chess games as well as their achievements and come to an opinion on who was the better chess player. However that opinion is always going to have subjectivity involved.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Luigi_Max said:
...Speaks to the ego you talk about. The ego that was probably the reason that he quit chess.
that plus the way he went into politics... dont get me wrong, i have an unbound respect for his chess talent, but his political activism, to me at least, smelled of blatant self-interest, of a relentless drive to continue WINNING by any means. a highly intelligent man, a master psychologist who speaks 9 languages should have known better than his simplistic antiputinism or furious rhetoric in the western media.
I am not sure it is pure speculation for some one of a very high playing strength to look at Fischer and Kasparov's chess games as well as their achievements and come to an opinion on who was the better chess player. However that opinion is always going to have subjectivity involved.
true. but there is another valid gauge - which does not make it less subjective - the opinions of other grandmasters.

one can easily find a bunch of wow quotes on both bobby and garry. there is one interesting difference though - people spoke of kasparov in awe AND intimidation/scare/fear, rarely with candid respect, whilst they spoke of bobby in awe of both his quirky personality and deep yet clear game... here is a selection:

Anatoly Karpov -I believe that Fischer surpassed all the former and currently living grandmasters in the ability to produce and process chess ideas.
Helgi Olafsson -As for the outcome of the match that never was, I am totally convinced that Fischer would have won against Karpov in 1975. He might have been out of practice and a bit rusty, not having played an official game since the 1972 match, but in the long run he would have proved to be the stronger player.
Bobby Fischer is the greatest Chess genius of all time! - Alexander Kotov
Garry Kasparov - Fischer’s beautiful chess and his immortal games will stand forever as a central pillar in the history of our game.
Mikhail Botvinnik - Suddenly it was obvious to me in my analysis I had missed what Fischer had found with the greatest of ease at the board.
Nigel Short - I am 99% sure that I have been playing against the chess legend. It's tremendously exciting," he said. In October last year, in the first of their four confrontations, Nigel lost 0:8, although he is one of the world's best speed chess players. "In my opinion Fischer is a much stronger speed chess player than Kasparov, which is incredible when one considers that at 58 he is virtually a geriatric in terms of the modern game
 
python said:
Anatoly Karpov -I believe that Fischer surpassed all the former and currently living grandmasters in the ability to produce and process chess ideas.
Helgi Olafsson -As for the outcome of the match that never was, I am totally convinced that Fischer would have won against Karpov in 1975. He might have been out of practice and a bit rusty, not having played an official game since the 1972 match, but in the long run he would have proved to be the stronger player.
Bobby Fischer is the greatest Chess genius of all time! - Alexander Kotov
Garry Kasparov - Fischer’s beautiful chess and his immortal games will stand forever as a central pillar in the history of our game.
Mikhail Botvinnik - Suddenly it was obvious to me in my analysis I had missed what Fischer had found with the greatest of ease at the board.
Nigel Short - I am 99% sure that I have been playing against the chess legend. It's tremendously exciting," he said. In October last year, in the first of their four confrontations, Nigel lost 0:8, although he is one of the world's best speed chess players. "In my opinion Fischer is a much stronger speed chess player than Kasparov, which is incredible when one considers that at 58 he is virtually a geriatric in terms of the modern game
It's always easier to celebrate champions of the past, though. Especially those who left the scene at the top of their game.
 
Luigi_Max said:
I will add. I actually agree Kasparov is not some great politician but that has nothing to do with what just happened at the latest FIDE presidential election. It might actually be impossible to win that election without being totally and utterly corrupt. It is not anything like a fair election.
Well we KNOW that russian embassies have been talking with the chess federations in pretty much every country in the world, so yea. Corruption is fun isn't it? :p
 
When we talk about good chess players I think it must be a distnction between "talented" and "best". This is because chess is probably the game in the world that improves the most with each generation. Especially now, with computer programs like Stockfish. No way Kasparov or Carlsen for that matter wouldn't beat Fischer in a WC match if he magically appeared infront of them in this moment soley becasue they would have known exactly how he plays and how to counter him.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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that's only partially true at best.

chess and computers have benefited each other since the early 70s...

in case you did not know, a great grand daddy of positional play, former world champion botvinnik, in the early 70s has opened a chess school that stressed an entirely novel approach to chess at the time - computer analysis. kasparov was one of the brightest graduates of that school.

almost 2 generations of players have grown up with computers and fully utilized the advantage.

it is true, though, that modern computers are incomparably more capable, and therefore more helpful to those who prepare with them. the advantage goes only so far, since the game of chess normally is viewed - and prepared for - in terms of 3 district phases: the opening, the middle-game, and the end-game. only in the debut, the opening, a home computer preparation can be maximized. it does not mean that computer analysis has no role in the other 2 phases, quite the opposite, but it follows the law of diminishing returns the further into the game. best end-game player - and kasparov was said to be one of the best - play largely using their own intuition rather than a home prepared opening surprise...

otoh, fischer was known to stress his opening game, including stressing the most available technology att. he was ALWAYS faster than his opponents come middlegame, mostly due to his inordinate memory for previously analyzed openings.

thus, had fischer not died untimely, he would more than likely be following the best players games, including his potential opponents, through computer-aided analysis and be just as prepared if not better.

read the above qoute from nigel short who played bobby in 2001, the old man just few years before his death and after bobby has all but disappeared for 20 years. nigel, one of the best fast players in the world, was destroyed 0:8 by the old man's ever sharp weapon - impeccable openings.

so, i do not buy you coulda/woulda.
 
python said:
read the above qoute from nigel short who played bobby in 2001, the old man just few years before his death and after bobby has all but disappeared for 20 years. nigel, one of the best fast players in the world, was destroyed 0:8 by the old man's ever sharp weapon - impeccable openings.
Regarding this bit, you might find this article interesting:

http://en.chessbase.com/post/the-third-coming-of-bobby-fischer-
 
python said:
that's only partially true at best.

chess and computers have benefited each other since the early 70s...

in case you did not know, a great grand daddy of positional play, former world champion botvinnik, in the early 70s has opened a chess school that stressed an entirely novel approach to chess at the time - computer analysis. kasparov was one of the brightest graduates of that school.

almost 2 generations of players have grown up with computers and fully utilized the advantage.

it is true, though, that modern computers are incomparably more capable, and therefore more helpful to those who prepare with them. the advantage goes only so far, since the game of chess normally is viewed - and prepared for - in terms of 3 district phases: the opening, the middle-game, and the end-game. only in the debut, the opening, a home computer preparation can be maximized. it does not mean that computer analysis has no role in the other 2 phases, quite the opposite, but it follows the law of diminishing returns the further into the game. best end-game player - and kasparov was said to be one of the best - play largely using their own intuition rather than a home prepared opening surprise...

otoh, fischer was known to stress his opening game, including stressing the most available technology att. he was ALWAYS faster than his opponents come middlegame, mostly due to his inordinate memory for previously analyzed openings.

thus, had fischer not died untimely, he would more than likely be following the best players games, including his potential opponents, through computer-aided analysis and be just as prepared if not better.

read the above qoute from nigel short who played bobby in 2001, the old man just few years before his death and after bobby has all but disappeared for 20 years. nigel, one of the best fast players in the world, was destroyed 0:8 by the old man's ever sharp weapon - impeccable openings.

so, i do not buy you coulda/woulda.
Kasparov best end game player, playing on intuition? Kasparov was the master of openings. He pretty much revolutionized how to work at your opening games. Huge stab of helpers working 24/7 to put op strategies before WC etc. Fischer was indeed probably the most talented mid game player we have ever had, but he wouldn't have stood a chance against Kasparov or Carlsenn simply because he was playing in an earlier time in a game that is 90% learning about and improving the games of your predecessors. Bare in mind that I am now talking about a fight for the WC title, not a single game of chess, where the randomness of comming up with a brilliant move is often playing a part
 
Sep 25, 2009
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if you love chess, you'll find this 50 minute interview with boris spassky, the 10th world champion extremely informative..what makes his negative opinion of kasparov-the-politician interesting is that he was the 1st soviet gm who had the balls to fight the system and emigrated when crushed. his english is fine, imo

he touched up on every subject discussed hitherto - kasparov the player and the politician, bobby fischert he player and the wacko, computers: how to use them and why not, karpov, capablanca etc...

he closed by a statement i never read anywhere - 'fischer was the most honest, clear as a crystal chess player that ever played'. truly shocking if we compare these statements to those in the western media later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm_iOINNa4c
 

Luigi_Max

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Echoes said:
The link I'm gonna post is risky on this forum but I go for it. :D


Bobby Fischer at his "best"

I might have said he was better at politics than Kasparov but this is probably against the rules of the forum, so I don't say it. :p
And this coming from someone whose mother was of Jewish descent and whose probable father, although not the name on the birth certificate, was a Jew.
 

Luigi_Max

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Transport Fischer straight from 1972 to play a match against Kasparov at his peak or Carlsen now and he would struggle. His opening knowledge would be so far out of date he would have inferior positions early in every game and might out right lose some games in the opening. However give him a year to prepare for the match and it would be a different scenario.
 

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