Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

People who preferred to see other riders having won those grand tours as always have a go at downplaying froome's accomplishments. typical fans. typical stuff. take it easy boys and girls, froome already paid his price for underservedly taken 2015 tour, by losing last year's vuelta under quite similar circumstances.

One man's downplaying is another one's rational belief.

since when beliefs started to get considered rational?

In your book they're only irrational if you don't agree with them.

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

 

[cantpedal]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

Wouter be carefull. A rational argument supported by facts has no place in this forum :razz:

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

I have to say that in past I did not have passion for Froome, he showed that he is the leader of peloton during last year Tour, attacking downhill, attacking with PetoSagan on flat stage - I have never seen guys in yellow and green to escape from peloton on flat.

On the other hand Nibali is the guy improving during whole career, Froome is coming a bit from nowhere, and it was never good sign, but forget it.

Key is that Froome won TdF several times, but still 3rd victory was gifted to him since he was not DQ eventhough he was running up hill on Mont Ventoux - I enjoyed the stage, but not to DQ him was political decision and different treatment of Froome compare to other riders.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

A rider is disqualified for the events that have been taken from his palmares, not for those that remain. Froome's team has chosen to not be a part of the coalition of teams that profess to promote clean cycling. This seemingly contradicts their claims of being clean. Add to that the contradiction of being a "no needles team" only to find that in their very first Tour win, their winner received an injection. A team that is definitely not at the proper end of the spectrum of clean sport. Since you introduced the clinic into this, I suspect that my continuing in this vein will result in my post being deleted.

I find it quite convenient that you eliminate the one rider that poses a threat to the original post that obvious hopes of Froome's being seen as the greatest of this generation of grand tour riders.

Edit: Added wording (in bold that was mistakenly left out initially.

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

A rider is disqualified for the events that have been taken from his palmares, not for those that remain. Froome's team has chosen to not be a part of the coalition of teams that profess to promote clean cycling. This seemingly contradicts their claims of being clean. Add to that the contradiction of being a "no needles team" only to find that in their very first Tour win, their winner received an injection. A team that is definitely not at the proper end of the spectrum of clean sport. Since you introduced the clinic into this, I suspect that my continuing in this vein will result in my post being deleted.

I find it quite convenient that you eliminate the one rider that poses a threat to the original post that obvious hopes of Froome's being seen as the greatest of this generation of grand tour riders.

Edit: Added wording (in bold that was mistakenly left out initially.

Froome has clearly has had the better of any meetings with Nibali. Amongst other things, if Nibali really thought he could beat him he would have done the tour more in the last 4 or 5 years. Quintana when on top form is more consistent as a climber on multi mountain stages, although Froome on climbs that suit has got the better of him, clearly Froome is a better TTer when compared to than Quintana. If the TDF has the TT's of 1990's and early 2000's he wouldn't stand a chance. Don't know about Contador as his history is somewhat clouded by being busted and circumstances robbing us of a competition between a top form Froome and a top form Contador. In ten years time we will know who is the best in terms of GT results, it's that simple.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

A rider is disqualified for the events that have been taken from his palmares, not for those that remain. Froome's team has chosen to not be a part of the coalition of teams that profess to promote clean cycling. This seemingly contradicts their claims of being clean. Add to that the contradiction of being a "no needles team" only to find that in their very first Tour win, their winner received an injection. A team that is definitely not at the proper end of the spectrum of clean sport. Since you introduced the clinic into this, I suspect that my continuing in this vein will result in my post being deleted.

I find it quite convenient that you eliminate the one rider that poses a threat to the original post that obvious hopes of Froome's being seen as the greatest of this generation of grand tour riders.

Edit: Added wording (in bold that was mistakenly left out initially.

Mod hat on:

Not deleted no, but a warning not to go down this line. It is absolutely fine to state that a rider has served or is serving a doping ban and has lost results because of it. Statement of fact is fine. Discussing how clean you think a team is does not belong in this forum.

Even if someone starts clinic talk in here it does not mean that other posters have to continue it.


And Nibali is clearly the greatest of this generation

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

A rider is disqualified for the events that have been taken from his palmares, not for those that remain. Froome's team has chosen to not be a part of the coalition of teams that profess to promote clean cycling. This seemingly contradicts their claims of being clean. Add to that the contradiction of being a "no needles team" only to find that in their very first Tour win, their winner received an injection. A team that is definitely not at the proper end of the spectrum of clean sport. Since you introduced the clinic into this, I suspect that my continuing in this vein will result in my post being deleted.

I find it quite convenient that you eliminate the one rider that poses a threat to the original post that obvious hopes of Froome's being seen as the greatest of this generation of grand tour riders.

Edit: Added wording (in bold that was mistakenly left out initially.

Froome has clearly has had the better of any meetings with Nibali. Amongst other things, if Nibali really thought he could beat him he would have done the tour more in the last 4 or 5 years. Quintana when on top form is more consistent as a climber on multi mountain stages, although Froome on climbs that suit has got the better of him, clearly Froome is a better TTer when compared to than Quintana. If the TDF has the TT's of 1990's and early 2000's he wouldn't stand a chance. Don't know about Contador as his history is somewhat clouded by being busted and circumstances robbing us of a competition between a top form Froome and a top form Contador. In ten years time we will know who is the best in terms of GT results, it's that simple.

Nibali is Italian and I can imagine, feels the need to take part in his country's grand tour, especially the 100 edition of it. The Giro is a pretty big race of which the Italians of course are passionate about. Froome has no external obligations/pressure to do anything other than take part in the Tour. Riding for a team with the budget and exposure that Sky has, him saying that he's going to do the Giro and then the Vuelta certainly wouldn't go over very well in Murdochland.

 

[Rollthedice]

They will meet this year in Vuelta.

 

[bambino]

To me he needs to win something else than TDF to be greatest GT rider of the generation. There are 3 GT's at the end. Greatest TDF rider of the generation for sure.

Even if he wins 4th TDF, I'm not going to rate him above Nibali as GT rider. If he also manages to win Vuelta (which I doubt tbh) we can talk again.

Edit: no need to say Berto is still a head above those two.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re:

To me he needs to win something else than TDF to be greatest GT rider of the generation. There are 3 GT's at the end. Greatest TDF rider of the generation for sure.

Even if he wins 4th TDF, I'm not going to rate him above Nibali as GT rider. If he also manages to win Vuelta (which I doubt tbh) we can talk again.

Edit: no need to say Berto is still a head above those two.

Froome is simply the top dawg. You can tell because whoever is the best current riders has all the AC fanbois in their thread making borderline-off-topic posts about their lord and savior. Its the most accurate metric you will ever find.

 

[tretiak]

The TDF he has won, he has always had a Team that is several times better than any of the competitors.
Once the Team is normal standard he has failed, thinking about the Vuelta editions.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

To me he needs to win something else than TDF to be greatest GT rider of the generation. There are 3 GT's at the end. Greatest TDF rider of the generation for sure.

Even if he wins 4th TDF, I'm not going to rate him above Nibali as GT rider. If he also manages to win Vuelta (which I doubt tbh) we can talk again.

Edit: no need to say Berto is still a head above those two.

Froome is simply the top dawg. You can tell because whoever is the best current riders has all the AC fanbois in their thread making borderline-off-topic posts about their lord and savior. Its the most accurate metric you will ever find.

Well I think some of the Froomster fanboys started the discussion which I commented on. Seem you are suggesting only positive posts can be posted about Froome, which... yeah sounds like AC topic doesn't it?

Berto is one of my least favorite riders, but it won't change my view about his palmares.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

Big mistake my friend, they don't deal with facts in here

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

Big mistake my friend, they don't deal with facts in here

Well at least for me the fact is that I can't consider someone who has barely finished all 3 GT's as the best and most complete GT rider.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

To me he needs to win something else than TDF to be greatest GT rider of the generation. There are 3 GT's at the end. Greatest TDF rider of the generation for sure.

Even if he wins 4th TDF, I'm not going to rate him above Nibali as GT rider. If he also manages to win Vuelta (which I doubt tbh) we can talk again.

Edit: no need to say Berto is still a head above those two.

Froome is simply the top dawg. You can tell because whoever is the best current riders has all the AC fanbois in their thread making borderline-off-topic posts about their lord and savior. Its the most accurate metric you will ever find.

Strangely, the same phenomenon occurs in the Contador threads with Froome/Sky fanbois.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

Big mistake my friend, they don't deal with facts in here

The real Rick James wants his name back.

 

[DFA123]

This is a crazy discussion; Froome is clearly the best GT rider of the last five years by a distance. It's just not even close. He's dominated by the far the biggest and most important GT in four of those years, and crashed out in the other one. That alone makes him number one, before you take into account the three second places at the Vuelta and the 10 stage wins.

Contador was number one in the five years before Froome's transformation, but since then, and post ban, he doesn't come close. Nibali perhaps a bit closer because he's won all three. But winning each GT once is still a big step below winning the Tour three times. Not even sure what Quintana is doing in the discussion until he wins the Tour.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

Big mistake my friend, they don't deal with facts in here

Well at least for me the fact is that I can't consider someone who has barely finished all 3 GT's as the best and most complete GT rider.

Lance also never did.
He did the Giro in 2009 I believe.
From the period 1999-2005 he was the best and the most complete GT rider.
He was the greatest GT rider of his generation. Period.
But yeah, according to you he wont be.

Froome is the first rider in years coming this close to the Tour-Vuelta double.
The top guys do the Tour and win it...

For Nibali vs Froome just do a H2H. Its simple really. Its not even close.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re:

This is a crazy discussion; Froome is clearly the best GT rider of the last five years by a distance. It's just not even close. He's dominated by the far the biggest and most important GT in four of those years, and crashed out in the other one. That alone makes him number one, before you take into account the three second places at the Vuelta and the 10 stage wins.

Contador was number one in the five years before Froome's transformation, but since then, and post ban, he doesn't come close. Nibali perhaps a bit closer because he's won all three. But winning each GT once is still a big step below winning the Tour three times. Not even sure what Quintana is doing in the discussion until he wins the Tour.

+10000!

 

[Walkman]

Re:

To me he needs to win something else than TDF to be greatest GT rider of the generation. There are 3 GT's at the end. Greatest TDF rider of the generation for sure.

Even if he wins 4th TDF, I'm not going to rate him above Nibali as GT rider. If he also manages to win Vuelta (which I doubt tbh) we can talk again.

Edit: no need to say Berto is still a head above those two.

The is no logic to this statement.
Why is it more impressive to win multiple different GTs than winning multiple Tours? Ask any rider in the peloton and they would say that they prefer to win the Tour (bar maybe some homegrown Italian). When going head to head, Fromme has smashed Nibali repeatedly. But somehow you rate him higher because he won inferior races, against inferior competition for the sole reason that they are different. Okey.

Not saying that having a won all three GTs is a small feat, but I think, and do think most people would agree, that 3 tours is better than a Giro, a Tour and a Vuelta.

 

[LaFlorecita]

The question is not who is now the best GT rider. If we use that logic Froome is better than Merckx The question is who has the best GT palmares. And the facts are:
Froome 3 TDF, 0 Giro, 0 Vuelta
Contador 2 (3) TDF, 2 (3) Giro, 3 Vuelta
Nibali 1 TDF, 2 Giro, 1 Vuelta
Quintana 0 TDF, 1 Giro, 1 Vuelta

Them's the facts. Can't argue with them, however much Froomie fanboys would like to.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

To me he needs to win something else than TDF to be greatest GT rider of the generation. There are 3 GT's at the end. Greatest TDF rider of the generation for sure.

Even if he wins 4th TDF, I'm not going to rate him above Nibali as GT rider. If he also manages to win Vuelta (which I doubt tbh) we can talk again.

Edit: no need to say Berto is still a head above those two.

The is no logic to this statement.
Why is it more impressive to win multiple different GTs than winning multiple Tours? Ask any rider in the peloton and they would say that they prefer to win the Tour (bar maybe some homegrown Italian). When going head to head, Fromme has smashed Nibali repeatedly. But somehow you rate him higher because he won inferior races, against inferior competition for the sole reason that they are different. Okey.

Not saying that having a won all three GTs is a small feat, but I think, and do think most people would agree, that 3 tours is better than a Giro, a Tour and a Vuelta.

I think you might find a lot here who disagree with that.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I think you might find a lot here who disagree with that.

TDF is the bigger race, but IMO you need something special to win all 3. Need very different skills for each GT. Sky struggle at the Giro, it's a race that cannot be controlled. It just seems like if you can win 1 TDF, it's likely you can win several more as the race is so similar each year.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

To me he needs to win something else than TDF to be greatest GT rider of the generation. There are 3 GT's at the end. Greatest TDF rider of the generation for sure.

Even if he wins 4th TDF, I'm not going to rate him above Nibali as GT rider. If he also manages to win Vuelta (which I doubt tbh) we can talk again.

Edit: no need to say Berto is still a head above those two.

The is no logic to this statement.
Why is it more impressive to win multiple different GTs than winning multiple Tours? Ask any rider in the peloton and they would say that they prefer to win the Tour (bar maybe some homegrown Italian). When going head to head, Fromme has smashed Nibali repeatedly. But somehow you rate him higher because he won inferior races, against inferior competition for the sole reason that they are different. Okey.

Not saying that having a won all three GTs is a small feat, but I think, and do think most people would agree, that 3 tours is better than a Giro, a Tour and a Vuelta.

I think you might find a lot here who disagree with that.

+1. Ability to peak one time a year in July does not make you greatest rider of all time. And yes, I did not regard Lance too high doing that either.