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Sep 23, 2011
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A year ago I attended the UCIIC meeting, which was a farce

Now we have the terms of reference of the CIRC, it looks altogether more serious. The key factor of course will be who turn up to give evidence.

There are some good incentives for people to cooperate, together with a built-in prisoner's dillema (If you tell the truth you get six months, if help us you get nothing. If you lie you get 8 years)

Here's a link to the Terms of Reference
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTI2NDA&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=OTMwNzg&LangId=2
 
And what incentive have people got to tell of what they know?

None, that's what.

The cheats will get away with it and if they are unlucky enough to get caught out in the future they can write a book explaining how unfair on them it all was.
 
Morbius said:
A year ago I attended the UCIIC meeting, which was a farce

Now we have the terms of reference of the CIRC, it looks altogether more serious. The key factor of course will be who turn up to give evidence.

There are some good incentives for people to cooperate, together with a built-in prisoner's dillema (If you tell the truth you get six months, if help us you get nothing. If you lie you get 8 years)

Here's a link to the Terms of Reference
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTI2NDA&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=OTMwNzg&LangId=2
Its sounds pretty good, but I would throw dollars on the table for the first 5 (or a declining scale) who delivers significant information.

The key is to get the ball rolling imo.
 
Nov 14, 2013
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As life shows time and time again before the rats jump off the ship it has to be on fire.

I am totally against T&R, there is no justice in giving a free pass for talking about your dirty secrets. Too Catholic for my tastes.
 
May 26, 2010
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Who is going to come forward and break Omerta and take 6 months never mind risk their future career prospects, very very few!

You can really see Jens Voigt being first in the queue...............:)
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
Who is going to come forward and break Omerta and take 6 months never mind risk their future career prospects, very very few!

You can really see Jens Voigt being first in the queue...............:)
The same people who have already broken Omertà.
Jaksche, Landis, Rasmussen - these are guys who have already spoken and probably feel with some justification that others have not been sanctioned or held to account.
Once you get people flipping, its prisoners dilemma and 6 months vs 8 years will give anyone a big incentive to talk.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
The same people who have already broken Omertà.
Jaksche, Landis, Rasmussen - these are guys who have already spoken and probably feel with some justification that others have not been sanctioned or held to account.
Once you get people flipping, its prisoners dilemma and 6 months vs 8 years will give anyone a big incentive to talk.
Hope so, but wont hold my breath. One rider against another person will not be enough. Needs more than a Landis(et al) to name some names, they will need to be corroborated by others.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Benotti69 said:
Hope so, but wont hold my breath. One rider against another person will not be enough. Needs more than a Landis(et al) to name some names, they will need to be corroborated by others.
Ya, that would be a problem.

However, and its just a hope - that the riders will flip out management. If 2 riders on a team name a particular manager or Doc, then you draw in the manager/Doc. Who hopefully gives you every name.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Ya, that would be a problem.

However, and its just a hope - that the riders will flip out management. If 2 riders on a team name a particular manager or Doc, then you draw in the manager/Doc. Who hopefully gives you every name.
I dont see it happening as apart from those whistleblowers named others wanting a future in the sport are not going to out others.

I am ever hopeful though one has to be in this sport.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
Who is going to come forward and break Omerta and take 6 months never mind risk their future career prospects, very very few!

You can really see Jens Voigt being first in the queue...............:)
Cookson should get a little credit for doing this, it would have been easier to do nothing and continue on the old "everything is clean, new generation" mantra instead.

I have my doubts too if anything will come from it, especially anything related to the new clean generation, as they have way too much to lose. But it cant hurt to try right?
 
Sep 23, 2011
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Someone with a grudge could take the anonymous route.
Someone in process of being charged but not already suspended could take the six month option.
Lance could testify (ok, only kidding)
 

Dr. Maserati

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Benotti69 said:
I dont see it happening as apart from those whistleblowers named others wanting a future in the sport are not going to out others.

I am ever hopeful though one has to be in this sport.
What you are citing there is good old fashioned Omerta, ie no incentive for riders and they get blacklisted by those within the sport.

Now, as of today - that is gone.
The riders now have the opportunity to save their own careers and get rid of anyone in control.
And that is just the doping riders - anyone who was clean but got burned could exact revenge.
 
May 26, 2010
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I see this going 2 ways;

1, it could have an effect and contribute to changing the doping culture that is all pervasive, but lots of teams will be decimated in order for this to happen.

2, it is used to as a tool to distance Cookson from the past(Verbruggen/McQ) and not have a big effect on the culture of doping, but is used by some wishing to exact revenge on others.
 

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Benotti69 said:
I see this going 2 ways;

1, it could have an effect and contribute to changing the doping culture that is all pervasive, but lots of teams will be decimated in order for this to happen.
You are basing this on the assumption that lots or the majority are still doping.

It may be true and if so, well tough, thats what has to happen to those teams.

Benotti69 said:
2, it is used to as a tool to distance Cookson from the past(Verbruggen/McQ) and not have a big effect on the culture of doping, but is used by some wishing to exact revenge on others.
Cookson is distant from the past. He was a committee member from 09, they met 3 times a year and were essentially kept out of the loop.

And regardless of what happens this puts a definitive break from himself and McQ/HV.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
. . .
And regardless of what happens this puts a definitive break from himself and McQ/HV.
Precisely. Concur. BIG break from past performance of the UCI.
 
Stuart O'Grady springs to mind here, if I am not mistaken he had the chance to come forward to some Australian Investigation, but kept his mouth shut thinking there was no evidence against him.

The next thing is what constitutes evidence, to Belkin staff have already been defended even though Ras has outed them.

A good intentioned idea but I see it ultimately not producing much, even if they said if you confess there will be no sanctions, would a rider want to risk his reputation and the potential wrath of his peers.
 

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del1962 said:
Stuart O'Grady springs to mind here, if I am not mistaken he had the chance to come forward to some Australian Investigation, but kept his mouth shut thinking there was no evidence against him.

The next thing is what constitutes evidence, to Belkin staff have already been defended even though Ras has outed them.

A good intentioned idea but I see it ultimately not producing much, even if they said if you confess there will be no sanctions, would a rider want to risk his reputation and the potential wrath of his peers.
Its 8 years of a sanction if you try hide and get caught. For a rider thats a career gone.
Also, there is a provision for anonymity plus a full reduction for those who provide witness statements.
And even if they were outed and given 6 months, your reputation will be the same as all the others exposed at the same time, so a good time to bury the bad news.

As for teams - most will already know their staffs history and either did not care or will stand by them if they take the hit.
 
The UCI has created such a toxic atmosphere with its scapegoating policy that no rider will want to come forward. This is made even more problematic by teams like Sky that will fire anyone who gets publicly exposed but are happy to keep those aboard if it does not become common knowledge. To handle the latter case, the UCI would need a whistle blower protection rule much like the whistle blower laws in the U.S.

I find it very unlikely they will go after individual riders from information provided by other riders. The "rats" would have to testify at hearings in the accused riders' countries, which would blow their anonymity. Those most likely to be sanctioned from information are doctors and, perhaps, other team staff. Multiple people can give information about them and those types of team staff are expendable.

The range of sanctions muddies the fairness of the system. It will create an unbalanced situation when people like Lefevre face a maximum of three years while Bruyneel will likely be banned for life by the end of the month. The same goes for Armstrong and Ricco and DiLuca. Riders like those three will be able to point to the six month slaps on the wrists that everyone else received and cry unfairness. They will be right too.

With libel laws, I don't see how the final report can contain anything but names of the self-confessed plus a huge set of "Rider #xxx"s, so those who do not come forward will not be exposed by the final report. The most they will have to deal with is the Horner situation, where people accuse them of being "Rider #123" but they deny it.
 

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BroDeal said:
The UCI has created such a toxic atmosphere with its scapegoating policy that no rider will want to come forward. This is made even more problematic by teams like Sky that will fire anyone who gets publicly exposed but are happy to keep those aboard if it does not become common knowledge. To handle the latter case, the UCI would need a whistle blower protection rule much like the whistle blower laws in the U.S.
That would be fair but it is not the UCI who are in charge of this.

There is indeed a whistleblower protection for UCI staff as well as the ability for those who come forward to get full relief including anonymity in certain cases.

BroDeal said:
I find it very unlikely they will go after individual riders from information provided by other riders. The "rats" would have to testify at hearings in the accused riders' countries, which would blow their anonymity. Those most likely to be sanctioned from information are doctors and, perhaps, other team staff. Multiple people can give information about them and those types of team staff are expendable.

The range of sanctions muddies the fairness of the system. It will create an unbalanced situation when people like Lefevre face a maximum of three years while Bruyneel will likely be banned for life by the end of the month. The same goes for Armstrong and Ricco and DiLuca. Riders like those three will be able to point to the six month slaps on the wrists that everyone else received and cry unfairness. They will be right too.
Same goes for Landis and all the way back to Pollentier. And in 2015 for taking EPO you will get 4 years. Laws change, sanctions change. Always will.

If JB gets life, and Leferve 2 years its because one co-operated and one didn't.
As well as there is indeed a provision for those who were previously caught to come forward and get a reduction.

BroDeal said:
With libel laws, I don't see how the final report can contain anything but names of the self-confessed plus a huge set of "Rider #xxx"s, so those who do not come forward will not be exposed by the final report. The most they will have to deal with is the Horner situation, where people accuse them of being "Rider #123" but they deny it.
Again, the terms state that it is not the intention to out every single person and punish them, but to uncover and tackle the practises that went on.
 
Benotti69 said:
I see this going 2 ways;

2, it is used to as a tool to distance Cookson from the past(Verbruggen/McQ) and not have a big effect on the culture of doping, but is used by some wishing to exact revenge on others.
That's my pessimistic take. This non-event wraps "the dark era" up and hides it.

I see more "Lone Athlete Doper" stories and not much else yet we know there's so, so much more. More bribes, more money under the table, picking winners, buying/selling races, supressing positives. No athletes needed really.
 
bobbins said:
And what incentive have people got to tell of what they know?

None, that's what.

The cheats will get away with it and if they are unlucky enough to get caught out in the future they can write a book explaining how unfair on them it all was.
There are plenty of incentives

1. A reduced ban
2. A cleansing of the soul - the sense of relief that comes from telling the truth
3. A commitment to a clean sport
4. Redemption
5. Righting a wrong

Maybe Spain is so entrenched in the cheating culture fans cannot see the other side of the coin.
 
Benotti69 said:
Tilford also doesn't see any reason or anyone in the sport to come forward.

http://stevetilford.com/2014/02/11/dopers-come-forward-we-offer-treats/

But maybe that is the plan, no one comes forward so the sport can be declared clean.
The problem with Tilford's article is that he wants the Commission to clean up the sport but criticizes the process they propose to go about it. He says in the article,

"I was hoping that this commission would be the catalyst to get as much of the doping culture and facts exposed and then we can all start at square one with a clean slate."

The hard cold truth is one cannot get at the facts without riders, sponsors, soigneurs, DSs, team owners coming forward and talking to the CIRC. How else would one "expose the facts?" Tilford has not offered any better way of getting at the truth.
 

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