Circ

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
bobbins said:
I wonder if Saint Dave knows the full extent of what his sister does at Sky and if so, will he spill it?
That's a good question, but David isn't here.

There is an implication by writing there is something on Fran Millar to "spill" and that you indeed know what that is, as well as it's true extent. And as this all has to do with doping and CIRC one can only assume it is doping related.

So, the best person to ask the dilemma question is you.
What are you going to do? Will you be contacting the CIRC to "spill" the details that you know? Or will you continue to enforce the omertà?
 
Dr. Maserati said:
That's a good question, but David isn't here.

There is an implication by writing there is something on Fran Millar to "spill" and that you indeed know what that is, as well as it's true extent. And as this all has to do with doping and CIRC one can only assume it is doping related.

So, the best person to ask the dilemma question is you.
What are you going to do? Will you be contacting the CIRC to "spill" the details that you know? Or will you continue to enforce the omertà?
Will I come forward and spill all that I know and risk ending my career?

I know how easy these things get forgotten, covered up and witnesses discredited so if you don't mind I'll pass.

I wish there were a way to clean up the sport but as far as I can tell, it's rotten from the top down.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
bobbins said:
Will I come forward and spill all that I know and risk ending my career?

I know how easy these things get forgotten, covered up and witnesses discredited so if you don't mind I'll pass.

I wish there were a way to clean up the sport but as far as I can tell, it's rotten from the top down.
So, self preservation and career trumps your own morals to enforce the omertà - yet you have no problem revealing details on an online forum.

How would you risk your career?
You would enhance it - because when you reveal what you suspect, that "its rotten from top to bottom". Then those people will be removed or themselves serving shorter bans because they too co-operated and as you are someone inside you will move up through the system.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
So, self preservation and career trumps your own morals to enforce the omertà - yet you have no problem revealing details on an online forum.

How would you risk your career?
You would enhance it - because when you reveal what you suspect, that "its rotten from top to bottom". Then those people will be removed or themselves serving shorter bans because they too co-operated and as you are someone inside you will move up through the system.
Maybe in a perfect world but as we know, this world is far from perfect. Cover-ups and manipulation of the media mean that the cheats will continue to get away with it.

It's not just the usage of the word omertà than cycling has in common with organised crime.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
bobbins said:
Maybe in a perfect world but as we know, this world is far from perfect. Cover-ups and manipulation of the media mean that the cheats will continue to get away with it.

It's not just the usage of the word omertà than cycling has in common with organised crime.
The cheats will continue to get away with it when people choose to remain silent.

And are you really in a position to call people cheats when you remain within the system for mere payment? How can one rail against a system and then partake in it. And yet have no moral problem offering titbits online.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
The cheats will continue to get away with it when people choose to remain silent.

And are you really in a position to call people cheats when you remain within the system for mere payment? How can one rail against a system and then partake in it. And yet have no moral problem offering titbits online.
So I should be penalised for revealing what I have seen and what I know?

I know full well that people working for major sponsors have been told about what their team is up to and they don't care. Teams keep quiet about what each other are up to. They are trying to sell an image and anyone contradicting this won't get very far. Commissions such as this new one are a pointless PR exercise.
 
the sceptic said:
Cookson should get a little credit for doing this, it would have been easier to do nothing and continue on the old "everything is clean, new generation" mantra instead.

I have my doubts too if anything will come from it, especially anything related to the new clean generation, as they have way too much to lose. But it cant hurt to try right?
+1.

Pretty much my thoughts!
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
bobbins said:
So I should be penalised for revealing what I have seen and what I know?
Did I suggest that - of course not.

And of course if you lie to the CIRC you can get 8 years of a ban. If you have done nothing wrong you can get anonymity with no sanction.

bobbins said:
I know full well that people working for major sponsors have been told about what their team is up to and they don't care. Teams keep quiet about what each other are up to. They are trying to sell an image and anyone contradicting this won't get very far. Commissions such as this new one are a pointless PR exercise.
If teams keep quiet about what they are up to - then how do you or they know what they are up to? Your points are not making sense.

Fran Millar - you had no problem outing her here.
So either it is well known and you have not revealed yourself or the bad people you worry about are en-route to take you out.
Of course there is another possibility too.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Did I suggest that - of course not.

And of course if you lie to the CIRC you can get 8 years of a ban. If you have done nothing wrong you can get anonymity with no sanction.



If teams keep quiet about what they are up to - then how do you or they know what they are up to? Your points are not making sense.

Fran Millar - you had no problem outing her here.
So either it is well known and you have not revealed yourself or the bad people you worry about are en-route to take you out.
Of course there is another possibility too.
I'm saying that there is no point in anyone coming forward because the cons outweigh the pros. I've not 'outed' anyone. I'd be very surprised that Saint David is blissfully unaware of what goes on in his team and others, especially one in which his sister is directly involved in. Maybe a bad example but surely if what goes on in that team is widely known outside of it then they both probably do know.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
He certainly is willing to tell us he has a conscience, agreed. Whether that is true or not, I can't say for sure.

I am interested if there's a rider we can point to, not caught, who came clean at some stage. Probably impossible due to keeping it quiet but then given UCI over the last decade, believing they could keep quiet, meh.

What about the rider that got in touch with Ashenden?
What about all those implicated in the Armstrong reasoned decision. Do you think all were forced by the authorities? Maybe they were one or two that could have gotten away by staying quiet but didn't. Not sure.
 
Sep 23, 2011
536
0
0
There are a few people out there where the judgement has taken longer than expected - including for instance the Bruyneel adjudication but also other cases. Is it possible that they was deliberately stalled so that the defendents could join the CIRC procedure? That could become interesting.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
bobbins said:
I'm saying that there is no point in anyone coming forward because the cons outweigh the pros. I've not 'outed' anyone. I'd be very surprised that Saint David is blissfully unaware of what goes on in his team and others, especially one in which his sister is directly involved in. Maybe a bad example but surely if what goes on in that team is widely known outside of it then they both probably do know.
Again, why bring up in a public forum what Saint David should spill about his sister - that Sky are doing something appears to be self evident according to you (which you can correct or clarify).

Why would you ask someone here what they should do when you yourself will not come forward? Maybe Saint David is worried the word omertà in cycling is not just the only thing that is in common with organized crime.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Again, why bring up in a public forum what Saint David should spill about his sister - that Sky are doing something appears to be self evident according to you (which you can correct or clarify).

Why would you ask someone here what they should do when you yourself will not come forward? Maybe Saint David is worried the word omertà in cycling is not just the only thing that is in common with organized crime.
Sorry, you've lost me. Theres plenty brought up in public forums about who should or shouldn't do what. I didn't suggest his sister was doing anything, simply that she would have an awareness, as would he. Ask around, especially in Manchester velodrome and you'll soon hear for yourself.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
bobbins said:
Sorry, you've lost me. Theres plenty brought up in public forums about who should or shouldn't do what.
Sure, but thats usually the mindless ramblings of people who haven't a clue what they are on about.

But you are an insider - and one who is willing to uphold the omerta to protect your livlihood and/or under other forms of threat.
I am not judging you - but why would you expect others to do what you wont?

bobbins said:
I didn't suggest his sister was doing anything, simply that she would have an awareness, as would he. Ask around, especially in Manchester velodrome and you'll soon hear for yourself.
Yes you did - this was your post with my emphasis:
bobbins said:
I wonder if Saint Dave knows the full extent of what his sister does at Sky and if so, will he spill it?
... now you can clarify if you wish - but it seems you really do not know much and are at best privy to rumours.
 
Escarabajo said:
What about all those implicated in the Armstrong reasoned decision. Do you think all were forced by the authorities? Maybe they were one or two that could have gotten away by staying quiet but didn't. Not sure.
Plenty got away with plenty and are still lying to anyone who asks.
Hein Verbruggen
Pat McQuaid
Thom Wiesel
Steve Johnson
Mike Plant
Bart Knaggs
Och

Scott free. In fact, Mike Plant just got a promotion.
 
bobbins said:
Will I come forward and spill all that I know and risk ending my career?

I know how easy these things get forgotten, covered up and witnesses discredited so if you don't mind I'll pass.

I wish there were a way to clean up the sport but as far as I can tell, it's rotten from the top down.
Please note that under the CIRC terms of reference you can have complete anonymity. If you have knowledge of doping in Spain, on your team or in the peloton you can go to CIRC without fear of being revealed. If you are doping yourself, you can chose to consider a reduced ban for telling what you know.

On the other hand you could finish your career and then write a tell all. You have lots of choices and will have to be guided by your own personal moral compass. The question is how will you feel inside. It takes courage to be a whistleblower and without criticising you personally not everyone has that courage.

I understand the risk you would be taking about being discredited and your cynicism about the process. The best way would be to hire a reputable lawyer who could make a third party approach to CIRC and establish some ground-rules for your protection.

But the rottenness of the system cannot be dismantled without some courageous people stepping forward.
 
Sep 7, 2011
25
0
0
Dear Wiggo said:
He certainly is willing to tell us he has a conscience, agreed. Whether that is true or not, I can't say for sure.

I am interested if there's a rider we can point to, not caught, who came clean at some stage. Probably impossible due to keeping it quiet but then given UCI over the last decade, believing they could keep quiet, meh.

What about the rider that got in touch with Ashenden?
In response to teh query in Bold: Stephen Hodge.
 
Sep 7, 2011
25
0
0
In fairness, Vaughters probably also belongs in that category and so might Hesjedal (we may not have known about it until Chicken outed him but he had already fessed up to the authorities of his own volition). Fignon might be another perhaps? But I agree, there aren't many.
 
Tricky Dicky said:
In fairness, Vaughters probably also belongs in that category and so might Hesjedal (we may not have known about it until Chicken outed him but he had already fessed up to the authorities of his own volition). Fignon might be another perhaps? But I agree, there aren't many.
None of those mentioned belongs in the category.

All hiding until outside pressure or otherwise forced the hand. And none of them delivered all the information required. Some are still lying. Fignon took most of the secrets into the grave with him (bless him).
 
May 26, 2010
28,144
2
0
Stephen Swart is another rider who volunteered his doping of his own volition

Paul Kimmage wrote about his doping in his book rough ride.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY