Clean Colombians? (Arkea investigation page 27)

[luckyboy]

Seen a few posts in the past such as when Betancourt won the Girobio someone said it was proof of clean cycling coming back + stuff about their living at altitude etc...

Just wondering what people's perceptions are on the Colombians that are now racing in Europe.



Was going to post in the Catalunya thread but that'd derail it. This psot made me think.

Then you shouldn't be surprised they can't climb anymore when it matters. But if you want to think the only reason why they're getting dropped is because they're riding clean and the others aren't then feel free to think that.

 

[Parrulo]

facts: columbians are the most talented cyclists eva that would destroy every1 in europe if they didn't love their country so much that they get depressed when living in europe. they are also as clean as water and as pure and purest as the best quality cocaine columbia produces.

every1 knows that only clean nations in cycling are columbia and australia.

hint: sarcasm

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I hate to break this to you, but they don't speak English in Colombia.

 

[roundabout]

They are the cleanest Spanish-speaking country for certain.

 

[BroDeal]

Doncha know? All the Columbians were forced to stop racing in Europe once those shifty euros began using EPO. They have been biding their time in Columbia and Latin America, where instead of being the total dopefest that you have heard about, there is no doping at all. Now that the sport has gotten cleaner, they are back to destroy the white man with their natural 8.0 Watts/kg power to weight ratios.

 

[Rip:30]

Yeah no Rx required at the las farmacías en sudamerica.

 

[hrotha]

All sarcasm aside, there's reason to think that the Colombians as a whole were clean(ish) or at least that they didn't benefit as much from doping in the 90s. In the second half of the 80s, the Colombians were a growing force in Europe. Their decline coincides precisely with the spread of EPO in the pro peloton. Now, why would those very talented folks like Lucho Herrera (who retired at 31, thirty-one) suddenly stop being a factor, when they had already paid their dues and adapted to European cycling?

Herrera also gave us a perfect quote to describe the early 90s: "when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew." His case is similar to LeMond's.

 

[The Hitch]

Oscar Sevilla dopes and he couldnt even win the Vuelta a Colombia.

Just a thought. Anyway i dont know if they do or dont.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

All sarcasm aside, there's reason to think that the Colombians as a whole were clean(ish) or at least that they didn't benefit as much from doping in the 90s. In the second half of the 80s, the Colombians were a growing force in Europe. Their decline coincides precisely with the spread of EPO in the pro peloton. Now, why would those very talented folks like Lucho Herrera (who retired at 31, thirty-one) suddenly stop being a factor, when they had already paid their dues and adapted to European cycling?

Herrera also gave us a perfect quote to describe the early 90s: "when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew." His case is similar to LeMond's.

this is exactly it. also there has never been a colombian caught on doping in europe. colombians live always thinking about the reputation of the country they love so getting caught on doping in europe would in their minds hurt their nation a lot, there's a lot of pride going in here, comparable to japan in many ways.

last year tuttobici were screaming after complete dominance of the colombians in the giro bio that they must all be doped. a colombian rider (robigzon oyola) asked a friend of mine, why they said that? and he explained because they can't understand and accept riders that are better than their own and they have no idea who you are and he was very sad about this. they are much naieve and this is often seen in their ways of racing as well, pure from the heart and away with fear and tactics. thay's why adapting to european teams is also somewhat hard for many of them, save most guys from boyaca who are more like solitary mountaineers or monks living with their bikes like mauricio soler and nairo quintana.

during the late 80s colombia were a evergrowing force in cycling(15 riders in top 25 of vuelta for instance) and to me no doubt alvaro mejia was born to win a gt eventually, but then came epo... and soon the colombian toptalent could only hope for stagewins or a top ten gc at the most. during 90s colombian cycling in europe had a tremendous decline.

 

[BroDeal]

All sarcasm aside, there's reason to think that the Colombians as a whole were clean(ish) or at least that they didn't benefit as much from doping in the 90s. In the second half of the 80s, the Colombians were a growing force in Europe. Their decline coincides precisely with the spread of EPO in the pro peloton. Now, why would those very talented folks like Lucho Herrera (who retired at 31, thirty-one) suddenly stop being a factor, when they had already paid their dues and adapted to European cycling?

Herrera also gave us a perfect quote to describe the early 90s: "when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew." His case is similar to LeMond's.

And Edwig Van Hooydonk retired before he was thirty because he did not want to take EPO. That means all Belgians today are clean. Using an example from twenty freaking years ago says nothing about today or even fifteen years ago.

I think that Cafe de Colombia stopping in 1990 had more of an effect than anything else. That date just happens to be precisely when the great Colombia "decline" in Europe began.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Oscar Sevilla dopes and he couldnt even win the Vuelta a Colombia.

Just a thought. Anyway i dont know if they do or dont.

he doped because without dope he wouldn't even be in top ten. sevilla is no match for the colombian topclimbers and sevilla knows that that's why he did the same mosquera did at last years vuelta, it's microdosing basically but gave him much recuperation for the final timetrial which he won and where he was caught on, one look at that result and you know sevilla was on something the others were not.

I'm not saying colombians don't dope in colombia, although I think te sport is very clean there now as well, but in europe I think no one would dare for fear of effect in home country.

colombia es pasison have been running with bio passport for 3 years and still their results of young talent are nothing short of amazing.

this april the best team from colombia une-epm, the team of legendary raul mesa (postobon, orbitel) will be coming to ride races in spain and it wouldn't surprise me they will dominate it beyond what we've seen in years. more so than the colombians did in the vuelta's in the late 80s because cycling is evolved in colombia.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

And Edwig Van Hooydonk retired before he was thirty because he did not want to take EPO. That means all Belgians today are clean. Using an example from twenty freaking years ago says nothing about today or even fifteen years ago.

I think that Cafe de Colombia stopping in 1990 had more of an effect than anything else. That date just happens to be precisely when the great Colombia "decline" in Europe began.

had nothing to do with it, there were many other colombian teams still out there like pony malta and postobon. but their results began to lack as epo came on the scene. cafe de colombia was only strongest team in beginning years.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Please tell me EPM-UNE will be at Asturias.

 

[hrotha]

And Edwig Van Hooydonk retired before he was thirty because he did not want to take EPO. That means all Belgians today are clean. Using an example from twenty freaking years ago says nothing about today or even fifteen years ago.

I think that Cafe de Colombia stopping in 1990 had more of an effect than anything else. That date just happens to be precisely when the great Colombia "decline" in Europe began.

Well, in the case of Belgium we have countless cases of riders who doped and were busted, systematic doping and all that. We don't have that info for Colombia. Talking about doping history is a lot like doing a puzzle, we won't get the full picture, and this fragmentary info is all we have.

Now, I don't agree with Ryo about Colombians not doping in Europe. Even if they were all naive and pure-hearted and had birds singing on top of their heads while they fed baby deer, that would have to change in Europe when you're riding for the likes of Kelme, T-Mobile and Phonak (Botero) or US Postal (Peña). I think it's rather a case of the typical Colombian physiology not getting as much of a boost from EPO (which would explain why some of the most successful Colombians [the aforementioned Botero and Peña] had atypical builds for a Colombian rider).

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Please tell me EPM-UNE will be at Asturias.

yeah they will and also castilla leon against contador _O_

and their line up features Mauricio Ortega(!!), Juan Pablo Suarez, Walter Pedraza, Rafael Infantino, Ivan Parra, Jaime Castaneda and Giovanny Baez, wow!! I Only wish for Francisco Colorado also but he must probably stay back to fully focus for vuelta colombia.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Well, in the case of Belgium we have countless cases of riders who doped and were busted, systematic doping and all that. We don't have that info for Colombia. Talking about doping history is a lot like doing a puzzle, we won't get the full picture, and this fragmentary info is all we have.

Now, I don't agree with Ryo about Colombians not doping in Europe. Even if they were all naive and pure-hearted and had birds singing on top of their heads while they fed baby deer, that would have to change in Europe when you're riding for the likes of Kelme, T-Mobile and Phonak (Botero) or US Postal (Peña). I think it's rather a case of the typical Colombian physiology not getting as much of a boost from EPO (which would explain why some of the most successful Colombians [the aforementioned Botero and Peña] had atypical builds for a Colombian rider).

It's funny then that Pena became a progressively worse climber over at us epostal. botero I wouldn't put my arm in the fire for him but he was acquitted of puerto by both uci and colombian federation same way like allan davis.

thing is pena and botero were supertalents in colombia, but not in climbing. as johan bruyneel once put it: if you have a colombian that can timetrial you have someone that can win a tour because in europe even the worst climbers can climb, a good example is also duque in europe, a sprinter in colombia but in europe a pretty good climber.

but I say you are totally right in that when all are clean the colombians have way more to gain as they have natural hematocrites of close to 50, living for generations on plateau's of over 3000 metres.

also especially for young guys there's no way to be doping in Colombia. they may make 200 euros a month, where are you going to get any (advanced) doping from that?

 

[Granville57]

FWIW:

If we're talking about Colombian physiology, let us not forget that George Hincapie has "Colombian physiology", being that, ya' know, he's Colombian (both parents were born in Medellín).

 

[The Hitch]

FWIW:

If we're talking about Colombian physiology, let us not forget that George Hincapie has "Colombian physiology", being that, ya' know, he's Colombian (both parents were born in Medellín).

George Hincapies parents are from Meddelin. Wow.

That really is a surprise.

 

[Granville57]

Yup.

http://blog.hincapie.com/post/The-Mother-Land.aspx

Edit:
To be totally accurate, I've no idea if they were actually "born" in Medellín (his dad moved from there to New York in 1960) but clearly the family is Colombian.

 

[hrotha]

FWIW:

If we're talking about Colombian physiology, let us not forget that George Hincapie has "Colombian physiology", being that, ya' know, he's Colombian (both parents were born in Medellín).

Well, it's just a manner of speaking, as "Colombian" is not a race. I was talking about the stereotypical Colombian climber build and about guys from high altitude regions with naturally high hematocrits.

 

[Granville57]

I was talking about the stereotypical Colombian...

I understand. I was just offering some fun trivia.

(I've really no idea if there was a point to my post or not in regards to the other stuff. )

 

[The Hitch]

colombians live always thinking about the reputation of the country they love.

What

You know theres a joke in Colombia.

That God made the country so beautiful he felt he had to even it out a bit so made sure that the country was inhabited by the most evil people.

Thats not a foreign racist joke, thats a national joke in the country itself. Look at La violencia in the 50's the murder of Gaitan, the wars of 80's 90's Avianca plane with foreigners blown out of the sky.

Meddelin was for decades the murder capital of the world, that was its reputation. The reputation of the countryside is FARC and AUCparamilitaries. The reputation in America is that its where Cocaine comes from? You know why, because during the cocaine epidemics 80% of it was coming from a COlombian.

Whats this about all Colombians wanting to make a good reputation for the country?

And its not independednt of sport either. The football teams were funded by the Medelin and Cali cartels. They had to abandon their 1986 football season aftrer Pablo Escobar killed a referee who had been bribed by the other team.

The entire national team was funded by drugs. Rene Hegita the biggest name in the country wasnt allowed to go to the world cup because he had visited Pabo Escobar in prison and when the camera caught him, he walked over to talk about how great El Patron was. It was later revealed the whole team was visiting him in prison.

At the world cup some of the players children were kidnapped as motivation to play better and when Andres scored an accidental own goal he was shot in the street a week later.

Cycling was just as badly infiltrated by the Mafia. Pablo started a team when his brother wanted to become a cyclist and possibly funded the european teams.

Cyclists were coerced into being drug mules and when they refused were killed.

Not that the majority of Colombia isnt really nice people. But the idea that all Colombians live thinking about the reputation of a country named after a conquistador and divided by Spanish imperialists, is well wrong.

If they arent doping its because they dont have the same access, not because they dont want to tarnish the countries reputation.

 

[Granville57]

[Edit] A much better link:

The Two Escobars

Tells more of the actual story.
A fascinating and extremely well done documentary.
(just ignore the opening commercial to the trailer)

 

[hfer07]

FWIW:

If we're talking about Colombian physiology, let us not forget that George Hincapie has "Colombian physiology", being that, ya' know, he's Colombian (both parents were born in Medellín).

wow-wow- GHincapie is as Colombian as Jerry Springer is British--He was born, raised,educated & trained in USA. don't use that stupid american stereotype of calling oneself a nationality that isn't belong to. -He may have been influenced by his parents on practicing the sport, since they(his parents) are the Colombians-not him.

on topic: the simple fact that Cycling in my home land is a way out of poverty, it means those folks can't even afford PED's--the trade off is that Colombian cyclists usually come from cities/towns/villages above 1500 meters a.s.l. and more (from the midland all the cities are above 2000 meters) so therefore they develop a natural ability, and nonetheless the country is set on mountains, and we don't have the seasons issue. those are advantages....

now, telling the truth- doping in Colombia exists-but not even near to the sophistication of the European/American/Australian teams & my compatriots get to now it when they cross the pond & start racing there-some of they cope with it- some can't and either drop to a Continental Team or head back to the land.

 

[Granville57]

don't use that stupid american stereotype of calling oneself a nationality that isn't belong to.

Hi! Are you ready to take a deep breath and just calm down a little bit?
Did you see my other post? It looks like this:

I understand. I was just offering some fun trivia.

(I've really no idea if there was a point to my post or not in regards to the other stuff. )

The aspect of physiology came up. I was just referring to the fact the George's parents were Colombian, in much the same way that Tom Danielson's physiology is influenced by his Eskimo genetics, perhaps there was something noteworthy there. But I really couldn't care less in the end. I have nothing invested in the topic emotionally.