Clean Colombians? (Arkea investigation page 27)

[D-Queued]

Colombian cyclists are genetically superior. The irony of the Cartel is not lost on a population that has genetically adapted to the presence of the Coca leaf and made them immune. But, these superior genetics have cost them Tour wins because they don't think they have to dope to be successful. If they did dope, their genetics minimize the impact of doping.

Icelandic cyclists do not dope. They have volcanos.

It is a fact that Afghan and Iceland do not have dopers because they have never even had a rider in the Tour. Afghans, like Colombians, have genetically adapted immunities. Same with peoples from the golden triangle. No Thai, Burmese, Laotian or Cambodian rider has ever tested positive or riddent the Tour.

The only reason that Colombian riders have been in the Tour is that they have superior mental toughness - and were coerced into competing.

All doping enquiries against Colombians are witch hunts - which always involve the US FDA and DEA who are trying to gain public support for persecuting innocent peoples.

This is proven because there are always accusations against three riders. Not one, two, four or six. But three. This is a conspiracy. All conspiracies involve the number three.

In 2001: Three Colombian cyclists charged with doping offenses
In 2010: Three Colombian Cyclists Charged with Doping Offenses

Africans don't dope. Africans are genetically linked to Colombians. Only one other African nation other than South Africa has ever had participations in the Tour. If Africans doped, they wouldn't need to run marathons. They could compete in the Tour instead.

Africans don't dope.

Neither do Antarcticans. Antarctica is closer to Colombia than Spain is.

Dave.

Edit to add: There is no cancer in Ethiopia. Lance has never even been there.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Yup.

http://blog.hincapie.com/post/The-Mother-Land.aspx

Edit:
To be totally accurate, I've no idea if they were actually "born" in Medellín (his dad moved from there to New York in 1960) but clearly the family is Colombian.

His family is but Hincapie isn't.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

What

You know theres a joke in Colombia.

That God made the country so beautiful he felt he had to even it out a bit so made sure that the country was inhabited by the most evil people.

Thats not a foreign racist joke, thats a national joke in the country itself. Look at La violencia in the 50's the murder of Gaitan, the wars of 80's 90's Avianca plane with foreigners blown out of the sky.

Meddelin was for decades the murder capital of the world, that was its reputation. The reputation of the countryside is FARC and AUCparamilitaries. The reputation in America is that its where Cocaine comes from? You know why, because during the cocaine epidemics 80% of it was coming from a COlombian.

Whats this about all Colombians wanting to make a good reputation for the country?

And its not independednt of sport either. The football teams were funded by the Medelin and Cali cartels. They had to abandon their 1986 football season aftrer Pablo Escobar killed a referee who had been bribed by the other team.

The entire national team was funded by drugs. Rene Hegita the biggest name in the country wasnt allowed to go to the world cup because he had visited Pabo Escobar in prison and when the camera caught him, he walked over to talk about how great El Patron was. It was later revealed the whole team was visiting him in prison.

At the world cup some of the players children were kidnapped as motivation to play better and when Andres scored an accidental own goal he was shot in the street a week later.

Cycling was just as badly infiltrated by the Mafia. Pablo started a team when his brother wanted to become a cyclist and possibly funded the european teams.

Cyclists were coerced into being drug mules and when they refused were killed.

Not that the majority of Colombia isnt really nice people. But the idea that all Colombians live thinking about the reputation of a country named after a conquistador and divided by Spanish imperialists, is well wrong.

If they arent doping its because they dont have the same access, not because they dont want to tarnish the countries reputation.

that is the very reason why they want to defend their countrys reputation or improve it. I'm not talking about escobar here, he wasn't a cyclist nor a regular colombian person suffering from the drugwars and civil wars. escobar is the most hated human being in the history of colombia. his son I believe even had to flie out of Colombia.

 

[The Hitch]

that is the very reason why they want to defend their countrys reputation or improve it. I'm not talking about escobar here, he wasn't a cyclist nor a regular colombian person suffering from the drugwars and civil wars. escobar is the most hated human being in the history of colombia. his son I believe even had to flie out of Colombia.

If Escobar the most hated ever, then how comes the most popular man in Colombia is someone who can quite easily be tarnished with links to Escobar.

Also, if you watch the documentary Granville posted which has some mistakes but is nonetheless a good watch, you get quotes like "se repite la historia de Jesús con Pablo Escobar Gaviria"

 

[Ildabaoth]

Then how comes the most popular man in Colombia is someone who can quite easily be tarnished with links to Escobar.

Also, if you watch the documentary Granville posted which has some mistakes but is nonetheless a good watch, you get quotes like "se repite la historia de Jesús con Pablo Escobar Gaviria"

Off-topic, but why do you know so much about Colombia?

 

[Fester]

Mad, absolutely mad. The Colombian "golden era" was bank rolled by none other than the Escobar brothers, who had several professional teams and even a track to bet on riders like horses at their home above Medellin.

How in a million years you can think they have higher ethics than anyone else is completely deluded. Especially as these substances are far less controlled in South America. And I sincerely doubt the vampires and police are as zealous in controlling doping as they are in many European countries.

After all it is not just the Anglo-Saxons who are complete hypocrites. It must be a universal thing -like cheating.

 

[The Hitch]

Off-topic, but why do you know so much about Colombia?

Thanks for the compliment. I always just liked Colombia and pay a particular interest in it and its history.

Mad, absolutely mad. The Colombian "golden era" was bank rolled by none other than the Escobar brothers, who had several professional teams and even a track to bet on riders like horses at their home above Medellin.

How in a million years you can think they have higher ethics than anyone else is completely deluded.

To be fair riders arent neccesarily responsible for who they ride for. In Colombia, most are just poor people who would jump at any opportunity to get a team to ride with.

Also Id add that one or two of the European teams seem a bit shady to me.

 

[hfer07]

Mad, absolutely mad. The Colombian "golden era" was bank rolled by none other than the Escobar brothers, who had several professional teams and even a track to bet on riders like horses at their home above Medellin.

How in a million years you can think they have higher ethics than anyone else is completely deluded. Especially as these substances are far less controlled in South America. And I sincerely doubt the vampires and police are as zealous in controlling doping as they are in many European countries.

After all it is not just the Anglo-Saxons who are complete hypocrites. It must be a universal thing -like cheating.

Several teams? please name one, if you can, because AFAIK the mafia had loads of money IN FOOTBALL-the Medellin Cartel controlled Atletico Nacional & Atletico Medellin, whereas the Cali Cartel almost got America de Cali the Copa Libertadores title. those are FACTS. If Escobar was ever interested in setting up a cycling Pro Team - he could have done it and bought out contracts to hire Europeans & overturn the races with bribes-that's the kind of power the guy had.-for him that was a mere hobbie-not a passion like football. If your theory was ever truth, I most say, they(Escobar brothers) dumped the money-because as is known, the only Pro Teams in Colombia that ever achieved success were funded by the three economical powers - the Santo Domingo family (Varta) the Coffee national Federation(cafe de Colombia) & the Ardila Group (Postobon) and none of "your" Escobar teams ever made it....

with all due respect but you sound like Fignon(RIP)-so bitter & full of tales to justify how repulsive he felt about a group of 3rd World athletes who came to Europe to take over his beloved sport.

 

[Andynonomous]

Its a shame.

Unfortunately, because of the SEVERE corruption in the professional sporting bodies (UCI, FIFA, ITF,...), we can only speculate who is dirty, and who is clean.
There are differing levels of circumstantial evidence against different athletes, but no-one can be absolutely sure about any athlete.

There is no way we can tell for sure who is doping if the authorities are not making a genuine effort to catch the CHEATS. Even when they catch a CHEAT, they try to cover it up, if he is a highly ranked CHEAT. Or, they let him off with some lame excuse (I forgot my password, so I couldn't report on my whereabouts - Wickmayer, I kissed a girl who did cocaine - Gasquet, I ate tainted meat in the EU where there are strict controls for Clenbuterol - Contador, I was upset, so I didn't make 3 OOC tests in a few months - Munoz ...).


The taint of the CHEATS spreads to the clean athletes. It's a darned shame really.

 

[sniper]

Unfortunately, because of the SEVERE corruption in the professional sporting bodies (UCI, FIFA, ITF,...), we can only speculate who is dirty, and who is clean.
There are differing levels of circumstantial evidence against different athletes, but no-one can be absolutely sure about any athlete.

There is no way we can tell for sure who is doping if the authorities are not making a genuine effort to catch the CHEATS. Even when they catch a CHEAT, they try to cover it up, if he is a highly ranked CHEAT. Or, they let him off with some lame excuse (I forgot my password, so I couldn't report on my whereabouts - Wickmayer, I kissed a girl who did cocaine - Gasquet, I ate tainted meat in the EU where there are strict controls for Clenbuterol - Contador, I was upset, so I didn't make 3 OOC tests in a few months - Munoz ...).


The taint of the CHEATS spreads to the clean athletes. It's a darned shame really.

I don't see how Gasquet fits in. He did cocaine, how is that performance enhancing?

 

[Andynonomous]

He broke the rules.

I don't see how Gasquet fits in. He did cocaine, how is that performance enhancing?

Cocaine may or may not be performance enhancing, but it is against the rules. In all likelyhood, he lied about how it got in his system (his story kept changing after he got caught, and was in fact speculation by another player - Rafael Nadal - that he may have kissed a girl with cocaine on her lips, that subsequently became Gasquet's defence).

Point is, these athletes that test positive for banned substances will come up with any lame excuse after the fact (ie. Puerta - "I drank from a cup with a diuretic on it"). Only too often these "dog ate my homework" excuses are bought by the sporting authorities.

 

[Le breton]

..........
with all due respect but you sound like Fignon(RIP)-so bitter & full of tales to justify how repulsive he felt about a group of 3rd World athletes who came to Europe to take over his beloved sport.

Do you have anything to back up what you are saying? Maybe you were not born yet and don't know it, but Fignon entered at least one stage race in Colombia, he even acquired a funny nickname : "filet-mignon".

If he despised Colombians as your comment imply, why would he have raced in their country?

 

[Martin318is]

Not that the majority of Colombia isnt really nice people. But the idea that all Colombians live thinking about the reputation of a country named after a conquistador and divided by Spanish imperialists, is well wrong.

Actually, I think its a lot more correct that what you have written.

You have taken a list of generally quite factual events (note that I am not even attempting to debate you on those) in Colombia and a "joke" and seem to be trying to suggest that more Colombians are embarrassed by their country than are proud of it.

My wife is Colombian.

She and her family and friends are without doubt some of the most Nationalistically proud people I have ever encountered. Her father is a retired judge who prior to that was an army officer. He cares so much about Colombia that he refuses to leave the country. His heart is welded to it like it is part of him.

My wife and I have been to many countries around the world together and if there is one thing that can be guaranteed it is that she will at some stage point out a feature of Colombia that is better. (Notre Dame? Have you SEEN the Cathedral de la Sal?)

Link to Cathedral de la Sal

The second thing that you can be certain of is that when she tells her parents about the place, they will agree with her.

The only reason that they care about the Spanish is because they are so proud about kicking them out of their country. And the one way that I can ensure that she won't talk to me for a week is if I say something negative about Colombia.

All countries have negative things in their history - it doesn't mean that the people themselves are not still proud to be Citizens.

 

[blackcat]

OP, eh, we talking coke or dope?

 

[The Hitch]

Actually, I think its a lot more correct that what you have written.

You have taken a list of generally quite factual events (note that I am not even attempting to debate you on those) in Colombia and a "joke" and seem to be trying to suggest that more Colombians are embarrassed by their country than are proud of it.

My wife is Colombian.

She and her family and friends are without doubt some of the most Nationalistically proud people I have ever encountered. Her father is a retired judge who prior to that was an army officer. He cares so much about Colombia that he refuses to leave the country. His heart is welded to it like it is part of him.

My wife and I have been to many countries around the world together and if there is one thing that can be guaranteed it is that she will at some stage point out a feature of Colombia that is better. (Notre Dame? Have you SEEN the Cathedral de la Sal?)

Link to Cathedral de la Sal

The second thing that you can be certain of is that when she tells her parents about the place, they will agree with her.

The only reason that they care about the Spanish is because they are so proud about kicking them out of their country. And the one way that I can ensure that she won't talk to me for a week is if I say something negative about Colombia.

All countries have negative things in their history - it doesn't mean that the people themselves are not still proud to be Citizens.

Well, what you are saying is that there are a lot of Colombians who love their country. And you seem to think that it is incompatible with my statement that not all Colombians care about the country.

But it is not. I simply said that there are people in Colombia as in any country who couldnt care less about its reputation. The events and people i listed prove this. Sure there are lots of proud Colombians. It is well known that the skies start raining television sets in Bogota in the minutes that follow Colombia losing a soccer match.

But my point throughout was that Colombians willing to hurt the countries reputation do exist and i made it to counter Ryos asserion that Colombians wouldn't dope because they dont want to tarnish the reputation of the country.


On a side note the story of your wife's father must be an interesting one. Judges and army officers were very dangerous positions to hold in the 80's and 90's. Judges were given plata o plomo and the Meddelin cartel even started at one point paying top dollar to citizens in the slums for killing any random police or army personel. To hear that he loves Colombia so much is admitedly heart warming even for someone like me who is usually untouched by such nationalism.

 

[Escarabajo]

Do you have anything to back up what you are saying? Maybe you were not born yet and don't know it, but Fignon entered at least one stage race in Colombia, he even acquired a funny nickname : "filet-mignon".

If he despised Colombians as your comment imply, why would he have raced in their country?

Fignon did say some bad things about the Colombians while he was alive. In his book he said some things that really were not truth and I can account for that. You can google it if you want, but it is well known in this Forum the dislike of Fignon for the Colombians.

 

[Martin318is]

Well, what you are saying is that there are a lot of Colombians who love their country. And you seem to think that it is incompatible with my statement that not all Colombians care about the country.
But it is not. I simply said that there are people in Colombia as in any country who couldnt care less about its reputation. The events and people i listed prove this. Sure there are lots of proud Colombians. It is well known that the skies start raining television sets in Bogota in the minutes that follow Colombia losing a soccer match.

Classic case of selective quoting - you responded to Ryo's post and indeed quoted it but there is just one problem. You said he said this:

colombians live always thinking about the reputation of the country they love

He actually said this:

colombians live always thinking about the reputation of the country they love so getting caught on doping in europe would in their minds hurt their nation a lot, there's a lot of pride going in here, comparable to japan in many ways.

You posted responding to the second version, but taking your comments in context of the version you posted, the story is very different. I agree with you therefore that Ryo's comment about extending Colombian pride (which it is - as I pointed out - absurd to question) to saying that they would therefore not dope is pretty hillarious.

And if you think the post game response is bad - you should see what happened when my 2 year old daughter started playing the "lets turn off the TV in the middle of the match" game. Eeek!

 

[Berzin]

If anyone has ridden the Vuelta a Colombia, the one that has different categories for amateurs and regular ham-and-eggers (it is like a cyclo-tourist event but it is extremely popular and getting bigger every year) I wouldn't have to tell you how soaked in PED's it is.

Go into any town where the stage depart/finish is and then try to get anything from any of the local pharmacies. Everything will be gone, from injectable vitamins to testosterone and everything else in between.

As for Colombian pro riders racing in Europe who would feel they have shamed their country for testing positive, that's not really the answer. They would feel ashamed for having gotten caught, which is two different mindsets totally.

There is no collective self-righteousness depending on national pride that is stronger in one country than in others. We're all human and bottom line is there is no one country that has a monopoly on the concept of fair play.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Mad, absolutely mad. The Colombian "golden era" was bank rolled by none other than the Escobar brothers, who had several professional teams and even a track to bet on riders like horses at their home above Medellin.

How in a million years you can think they have higher ethics than anyone else is completely deluded. Especially as these substances are far less controlled in South America. And I sincerely doubt the vampires and police are as zealous in controlling doping as they are in many European countries.

After all it is not just the Anglo-Saxons who are complete hypocrites. It must be a universal thing -like cheating.

what absolute nonsense, escobar had zero pro teams. he was up until his neck in football but no cycling, escobar never liked cycling either he would build football stadiums to get support from the people.

they don't have higher ethics than europeans, learn to read. they ride under more pressure to put out a good image of their hurt but loveable nation around the world

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Do you have anything to back up what you are saying? Maybe you were not born yet and don't know it, but Fignon entered at least one stage race in Colombia, he even acquired a funny nickname : "filet-mignon".

If he despised Colombians as your comment imply, why would he have raced in their country?

because of the money, fignon was a bitter racist pls read his book he hates everyone that isn't european basically. I don't hate fignon as he said many good things including stuff about doping in his book that I agree with but the horrible lies in his book told about colombians are ridiculous and pathetic, despite his death people like herrera spoke with respect of him despite his horrible comments towards the colombian people and cyclists.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

If anyone has ridden the Vuelta a Colombia, the one that has different categories for amateurs and regular ham-and-eggers (it is like a cyclo-tourist event but it is extremely popular and getting bigger every year) I wouldn't have to tell you how soaked in PED's it is.

Go into any town where the stage depart/finish is and then try to get anything from any of the local pharmacies. Everything will be gone, from injectable vitamins to testosterone and everything else in between.

As for Colombian pro riders racing in Europe who would feel they have shamed their country for testing positive, that's not really thew answer. They would feel ashamed for having gotten caught, which is two different mindsets totally.

There is no collective self-righteousness depending on national pride that is stronger in one country than in others. We're all human and bottom line is there is no one country that has a monopoly on the concept of fair play.

wow, have any evidence of this or did you suck it out of your thumb?

 

[craig1985]

Whatever happened to Daniel Rincon? He rode one year at USPS (2004) and then disappeared, now if he was doping, he was certainly doing it wrong.

 

[hrotha]

What about Libardo Niño? What about Castelblanco's 1999 TdF samples testing positive for EPO in 2005? What about the 2008 Vuelta a Colombia?

 

[craig1985]

Duarte's positive doping case to be re-opened | Cyclingnews.com

I assume naturally high testerone levels, or something he had a TUE for?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Whatever happened to Daniel Rincon? He rode one year at USPS (2004) and then disappeared, now if he was doping, he was certainly doing it wrong.

he went back to colombia and still races, same for javier gonzalez after his year with saunier duval.