Clean Colombians? (Arkea investigation page 27)

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Jun 16, 2009
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hfer07 said:
I find it even repulsive that a mod/admin here finds amusing to bring this person to discussion-knowing all the harm he caused not only in my country, but around the world with all the drug trafficking & killings because of the very drugs that might as well have ended up in the hands of a love one... perhaps your own families
Sorry if you are offended but frankly, you are wrong. I did not bring Escobar into this conversation - I responded to a claim that was patently false. That claim was brought by someone who was trying to also claim that Colombian cyclists are less likely to cheat than those from other countries.

As to the rest of your histrionics, I suggest you read the entire thread again.
 
Ildabaoth said:
There is a famous saying in my country: writing in all caps and like if your question mark key is damaged doesn't make you any cooler. ;)

Anyways, point taken, the Grupo Inverca wasn't Escobar's, but Gacha's. That would mean colombian cycling was somewhat sponsored not by only one drug lord, but two. Happy now? ;)

Please enlighten us about the invitation to Escobar to be a member of the Corporación Tour de Francia. Or about the interview Escobar himself gave to Carla Toscano, saying he donated money for colombian riders to go to the Tour de France. Or tell us about the assassination of Alfonso Flórez (former cyclist) or Murillo (former cycling team owner) by the cartel de Medellín.

It is easy to dismiss other opinions by treating them as gossip. So go ahead and tell us another explanation why Escobar said that he donated money, and why there are even pictures of cyclists showing his name in their shorts.

If you are colombian -regardless of the region you are originally from-, you better know that drug cartels were in everything in the 80's. Escobar himself was a Congressman! And if even so you believe drug money would stay away from the most important sport in Colombia of that decade, well, I guess I shouldn't talk to you about Santa.
http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/2010/07/alfonso-flores-tour-l-avenir-winner.html

The reasons why Florez was gunned down remain murky, like so many other assassinations in Colombia during the 1990s. The most widely reported account states that Florez had somehow upset one of Pablo Escobar's men. In the 90's, cyclists were often used a drug mules (sometimes unwillingly), due to their high level of fitness, how accustomed they were to international travel, and their celebrity status within the country. While some professional cyclists were killed for refusing to take on such tasks, or for getting caught (like Juan Carlos Castillo), it's also entirely possible that Florez was shot for another reason which circulated years after his death. It's possible that Florez had become involved with a trafficker's girlfriend...an offense almost as reprehensible as refusing to take drugs into the United States inside your stomach. In the end, Florez' story is a quintessentially Colombian one, and the plot line is eerily commonplace to those of us who grew up there. As such, the details of his passing seem almost inconsequential to most of us, while his accomplishments in the sport remain intact in our minds.
Florez and other excyclist were involved in drug bussiness themselves by accident or necessity. That was what was left of these riders with no much money left in their pockets. Anybody from the streets could go and start trafficking in the Cocaine bussiness as mules. My question is what the hell that has to do with the subject in matter. We are not disscussing social-political violence related issues here.

If the Cartels were such a big influence in Colombian cycling we probably could have profitted from a Ferrari Doctor in our Country if that was the case. As other people have noted here, Soccer was the sport in which the Drug Cartels had the biggest interests. They forgot to mention "El America de Cali" which had the best team for years. In fact they went to the American cup many times. The payroll was very high. But even with the big injection in Soccer we never were really succesful in that sport. Now who is going to think that those Carterls had any interest in Cycling other than the exporadic hiring of mules. LOL.

I know for a fact that one of the biggest fans of cycling in Colombia was Ardila Lulle. He actually was the one who has sponsored several important cycling teams in Colombia (And soccer also).
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Of course the cartels were predominantly interested in cyclists as mules. Some of them (as evidenced from the Escobar comments earlier) were also interested in them from a betting point of view though. If you think of it, this is potentially similar to horse racing with the added bonus that you can bribe the horse.

There is nothing to suggest that Escobar or anyone else would be motivated to start drug programmes for cyclists. There is a bit to suggest though that the cyclists themselves would be more motivated to win than average. and that THAT would be a motivation to dope.
 

flicker

BANNED
Aug 17, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/2010/07/alfonso-flores-tour-l-avenir-winner.html



Florez and other excyclist were involved in drug bussiness themselves by accident or necessity. That was what was left of these riders with no much money left in their pockets. Anybody from the streets could go and start trafficking in the Cocaine bussiness as mules. My question is what the hell that has to do with the subject in matter. We are not disscussing social-political violence related issues here.

If the Cartels were such a big influence in Colombian cycling we probably could have profitted from a Ferrari Doctor in our Country if that was the case. As other people have noted here, Soccer was the sport in which the Drug Cartels had the biggest interests. They forgot to mention "El America de Cali" which had the best team for years. In fact they went to the American cup many times. The payroll was very high. But even with the big injection in Soccer we never were really succesful in that sport. Now who is going to think that those Carterls had any interest in Cycling other than the exporadic hiring of mules. LOL.

I know for a fact that one of the biggest fans of cycling in Colombia was Ardila Lulle. He actually was the one who has sponsored several important cycling teams in Colombia (And soccer also).
I don't agree on Colombian cyclists being used as mules. Humans are used as mules for moving large quanites of coca leaf and paste out of the jungles and to the final processing areas. Escobar had his own 727s (Air Medillian) and I am sure cigarette boats, freighters other cargo planes. Many of those high rises built all over Brazil, Colombia and other countries. Loads of Cocaine would go north in big jets and return from the states with Catipillar tractor parts, pumps etc. for road building construction etc.
If one wants to be conspiracy theorists maybe a few Colombians brought a couple of kilos to someone in Brugge or Paris or Marsille as a favor or to make a little extra cash, but I imagine that would be independent of Escobar or the cartels. A lot of the action now is in the Darrien, pretty much a no mans land between Panama City and Colombia. I can't imagine anyone there even on a mountain bike, just way to dangerous.
 
Martin318is said:
Of course the cartels were predominantly interested in cyclists as mules. Some of them (as evidenced from the Escobar comments earlier) were also interested in them from a betting point of view though. If you think of it, this is potentially similar to horse racing with the added bonus that you can bribe the horse.

There is nothing to suggest that Escobar or anyone else would be motivated to start drug programmes for cyclists. There is a bit to suggest though that the cyclists themselves would be more motivated to win than average. and that THAT would be a motivation to dope.
Martin, my point is that Pablo Escobar (Or his brother) interest in cycling was isolated and had no impact whatsoever in performance, doping or success in Colombian cycling. So the is a moot point to discuss whether he used cyclists as mules or not.

In fact that was one of the questions that I always had about these drug dealers. Why the lack of true interest in this sport? At the end of the day I am happy that these guys did not stick their noses directly into the Sport.

Remember that a lot of people had ties, directly or indirectly, to the drug business back in the 80's and 90's. So cyclist’s connections to drugs as mules is not something out of the ordinary IMHO. And nothing that I am proud of.:mad:
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Ildabaoth said:
Pablo Escobar said it himself in an interview with Carla Toscano, there is also a book, Los jinetes de la cocaína, there is the letter sent by Julio Nieto Bernal himself to Pablo Escobar (it was in the news, but I can't find it online and honestly, I can't be bothered to look for stuff if you keep being stubborn yourself), there is the fact that quite a few cycling managers and cyclists were killed by drug cartels in the 80's and there is the report in Cycling Inquisition quoted by spalco earlier.

Nevertheless, as I stated in my previous post, I don't think it was enough money to build a super team or something similar. Even the best colombian teams had limited budgets, not barely enough to even equip themselves with the best bikes. It was mostly bonus prizes, like money that Escobar gave to other public figures like footballers and bullfighters.
so they barely had any good influence on the teams. they used the cyclists as drugmules, that's for sure but how could that be performance enhancing. more the other way around.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Martin318is said:
Its pretty hillarious that you want to go head to head with people who have presented such detailed information on a topic when all you have to come back with is that you personally haven't seen anything written on it.

Here is a truly excellent article, written by a Colombian cyclist - in particular please note the picture roughly 25% of the way down, of a cyclist with "Pablo Escobar Renovacion Liberal" written on his shorts...

Cycling inquisition: Pablo escobar, guerillas, and my Dream Bike
so?? I was talking about colombian pro teams in europe. read my posts again.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Ryo Hazuki said:
so?? I was talking about colombian pro teams in europe. read my posts again.
Martin318is said:
Of course the cartels were predominantly interested in cyclists as mules. Some of them (as evidenced from the Escobar comments earlier) were also interested in them from a betting point of view though. If you think of it, this is potentially similar to horse racing with the added bonus that you can bribe the horse.

There is nothing to suggest that Escobar or anyone else would be motivated to start drug programmes for cyclists. There is a bit to suggest though that the cyclists themselves would be more motivated to win than average. and that THAT would be a motivation to dope.
well there is no proove of that is there?? at least dozens of european cyclists have been caught on doping in europe in the past 25 years, but not so for colombians, like what was said before even if they doped it would barely matter especially after the 50% rule in 1997 as colombians themselve are close that to average cuz of their living in high altitude.
 
Feb 24, 2011
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Ryo Hazuki said:
so they barely had any good influence on the teams. they used the cyclists as drugmules, that's for sure but how could that be performance enhancing. more the other way around.
Honestly, I don't know how can you arrive to the conclusion that drug lords only used cyclists as drugmules from my posts. Perhaps you are misquoting me for somebody else. And I never said money that was given to cyclists was huge. For god's sake, most colombian were using crappy bikes, even still using toe clips by the end of the 80's. They weren't swimming in money.

Anyways, I'm staying out of here. I know things and I know people, even somebody who was a close friend of Alfonso Flórez and knows quite a bit about his death's cause. This is pointless and, on the other hand, it is most useless for most forum members. And colombian ones, who should be interested, are just like "No, no, drug money never ever entered cycling and you don't have proofs", as if I could produce a check or something like that.
 
Ildabaoth said:
Honestly, I don't know how can you arrive to the conclusion that drug lords only used cyclists as drugmules from my posts. Perhaps you are misquoting me for somebody else. And I never said money that was given to cyclists was huge. For god's sake, most colombian were using crappy bikes, even still using toe clips by the end of the 80's. They weren't swimming in money.

Anyways, I'm staying out of here. I know things and I know people, even somebody who was a close friend of Alfonso Flórez and knows quite a bit about his death's cause. This is pointless and, on the other hand, it is most useless for most forum members. And colombian ones, who should be interested, are just like "No, no, drug money never ever entered cycling and you don't have proofs", as if I could produce a check or something like that.
Again, you are probably right about drug money entering cycling, but that hardly had any effect on the sport as a whole. Nor in their programs, performances or successes. Hec, I am an engineer who has never been interested in the drug business nor has participated, but I can bet you a dollar that during my life span drug money has entered my pockets. That still does not mean anything. Even though we are trying to change it, it was inevitable in the type of society that we were living on. Drug money was everywhere. For example, they invested a lot in real state. Does that mean that Architects were deeply involved in the drug business? No. There is no choice. It is like collateral impact.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Ryo Hazuki said:
well there is no proove of that is there?? at least dozens of european cyclists have been caught on doping in europe in the past 25 years, but not so for colombians, like what was said before even if they doped it would barely matter especially after the 50% rule in 1997 as colombians themselve are close that to average cuz of their living in high altitude.
Firstly, just how many Colombians have ridden in the Pro field in Europe? Far less than 1% of all riders would be a fair estimate. Of those you counted, how many were there in the 2000's when drug testing became broader?

Secondly, as was pointed out earlier - some of the more recent Colombian cyclists have been associated with the most suspect teams - Kelme, Saunier Duval, Phonak, Telekom, US Postal. It is naive in the extreme to try to suggest that those riders passed through all those teams without doping at some point.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Martin318is said:
Firstly, just how many Colombians have ridden in the Pro field in Europe? Far less than 1% of all riders would be a fair estimate. Of those you counted, how many were there in the 2000's when drug testing became broader?

Secondly, as was pointed out earlier - some of the more recent Colombian cyclists have been associated with the most suspect teams - Kelme, Saunier Duval, Phonak, Telekom, US Postal. It is naive in the extreme to try to suggest that those riders passed through all those teams without doping at some point.

I'm not saying that but I do say that botero and pena's results didn't have weird curves like those of beloki, sevilla, aitor gonzalez or others had. if they did use than certainly it didn't have much effect.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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hrotha said:
Beloki had very consistent results until his 2003 crash. :confused:

edit: and Botero was very inconsistent.
no he bursted on the scene in 2000 I think or 99 and I alwasy thought of it wasmore suspicious than botero who came way more slowly. I admitt not as ridiculous as guys like aitor gonzalez who I could never take serious or dario frigo

botero had money dispute. 3 years ago he gave an interview where he was told that until 2000 kelme paid him 600 dollars a month 4 years long. and after his 99 year he was so sick of this that he said I quit if you don't raise me and he quit for a while/went back to colombia I believe. kelme was always notrious as was gianni savio for using colombians and paying them way under the scale because they wouldn't go back to colombian without having made money, it's a sad story and for once reason why kelme was not liked in colombia and neither was savio during the end of colombia - selle italia. colombia also pulled out as a sponsor then.
 
Beloki only turned pro in 1998 and had good results already - lost the Tour de l'Avenir to Rinero in the last stage, for example. He developed more slowly and in a more consistent way than Botero, who had done virtually nothing until 1999. I don't know how you can claim Botero came slowly and wasn't suspicious - oh wait, he's Colombian, never mind.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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hrotha said:
Beloki only turned pro in 1998 and had good results already - lost the Tour de l'Avenir to Rinero in the last stage, for example. He developed more slowly and in a more consistent way than Botero, who had done virtually nothing until 1999. I don't know how you can claim Botero came slowly and wasn't suspicious - oh wait, he's Colombian, never mind.
1996 Kelme - Artiach 815 -
1997 Kelme - Costa Blanca 466 -
1998 Kelme - Costa Blanca 152 -
1999 Kelme 118 -
2000 Kelme - Costa Blanca 65 -
2001 Kelme - Costa Blanca 33 -
2002 Kelme - Costa Blanca 13

very normal curve to me :rolleyes:



1997 - 639
1998 Euskaltel - Euskadi 908
1999 Euskaltel 78
2000 Festina 17

beloki :rolleyes:
 
May 13, 2009
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I can't believe DAOTEC is dutch lol

Personally, having raced against some of these guys a bit, I think they dope a bit less than Europeans as a lot of the local pro teams and riders don't have a huge budget for PEDs. I am not saying that they are clean, but at this level, who is really?
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
1996 Kelme - Artiach 815 -
1997 Kelme - Costa Blanca 466 -
1998 Kelme - Costa Blanca 152 -
1999 Kelme 118 -
2000 Kelme - Costa Blanca 65 -
2001 Kelme - Costa Blanca 33 -
2002 Kelme - Costa Blanca 13

very normal curve to me :rolleyes:



1997 - 639
1998 Euskaltel - Euskadi 908
1999 Euskaltel 78
2000 Festina 17

beloki :rolleyes:
Botero:

Operación Puerto

En 2006, en el marco de la Operación Puerto, fue identificado por la Guardia Civil como cliente de la red de dopaje liderada por Eufemiano Fuentes (quien ya había sido su médico en el Kelme), bajo los nombres en clave número 3, Sansone, número 4 y Nicol.[7] [8] [9] [10] [11] Entre las pruebas recabadas por el instituto armado se encontraban las siguientes:

una grabación de vídeo realizada el 4 de mayo de 2006, en la que Botero entraba al laboratorio del Dr. Merino Batres (C/ Zurbano nº 92, entreplanta) en compañía de Fuentes y Labarta. Con esta misma fecha aparecían reseñadas dos bolsas de concentrados de hematíes congelados (incautadas en los registros del 23 de mayo de 2006 en uno de los pisos madrileños de Fuentes, concretamente en el sito en C/ Alonso Cano nº 53) de la siguiente forma: 4 NO SIB 04/05/06, que se corresondería al nombre en clave de Botero y la fecha de su extracción (el día que fue grabado por los investigadores), posibilitando su identificación.[7]

una conversación telefónica intervenida el 17 de mayo de 2006 a las 19:39 horas entre Fuentes y Botero (durante el Giro de Italia que corría el colombiano). En el transcurso de la conversación, Fuentes (quien identifica a Botero como Sansón) dice al ciclista colombiano "cómo va a ir usted cuando empiezas a pintar esos paisajes tan bonitos que pinta este artista Botero cuando usa los rotuladores esos colombianos".[7]

el Documento 127 asociado a Botero (con nombre en clave Sansone) en cuyo reverso figura la entrega de EPO en fecha 03/01/02; en fechas 07/01/02 y 13/01/02 habría recibido EPO, oxitosona, ARANESP y un producto sin identificar referenciado como AVR.[8]

el Documento 128 asociado a Botero (con nombre en clave Sansone), en cuyo anverso se anota con fecha 27/12/02 una referencia al envío que debería efectuar el Dr. Merino Batres de distintos medicamentos que se identifica mediante símbolos. En el reverso del mismo documento se observan otras anotaciones relativas a las cuotas correspondientes a Merino que debería abonar el ciclista.[8]

el Documento 1, que consta de tres columnas escritas en italiano en el que se refieren a fechas determinadas y a una serie de medicamentos identificados como ACTOVEGIN, albúmina e insulina y unas instrucciones anotadas al pie del documento también en italiano con una referencia a Botero y "a los azules".[8]

Según la documentación intervenida sería, asimismo, uno de los corredores (el número 4) a los que el grupo de Fuentes trataría, además de con la programación de administración de medicamentos, con el programa de extracciones/transfusiones sanguíneas.[9]

en los Documentos 32-34, era uno de los clientes (con nombre enn clave BTR) que figuraba en una tabla en la que se especifican los pagos de varios clientes y una serie de apartados en los que se describen supuestamente productos, fechas y cantidades económicas.

el Documento 63, en el que se relacionan hasta nueve presuntos clientes identificando números con alias (incluido el 4-Nicolás atribuido a Botero), con dos columnas con anotaciones que se refieren a una serie de unidades definidas como 1, 2 o?, que serían muestras de sangre o hematíes. La segunda columna recoge una serie de fechas asociada a cada uno de los presuntos deportistas, cotejándose las mismas con las muestras de plasma, sangre y hematíes intervenidas en los distintos apartamentos asociados a Fuentes durante los registros del 23 de mayo de 2006.[9]
El 2 de octubre la Federación Colombiana de Ciclismo archivó el caso porque no tiene nada de fondo, no presenta pruebas y sólo son suposiciones, según el presidente del organismo colombiano.[12]
Botero's son's name is Nicolas if I am not mistaken.:(

National Federations investigating their own cyclists doping ofenses constitutes a huge Conflict of Interests for the sport.

Come on, Santiago rode for Kelme from 1997 to 2002 and we are to believe that he was completely clean?:confused:

Even in interviews for El Tiempo Botero used to say that he arrived young and naive to Europe and that he just did what Management and Doctors told him to do. What does this mean?
 
Mar 31, 2010
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indurain666 said:
I can't believe DAOTEC is dutch lol

Personally, having raced against some of these guys a bit, I think they dope a bit less than Europeans as a lot of the local pro teams and riders don't have a huge budget for PEDs. I am not saying that they are clean, but at this level, who is really?
daotecs wife is colombian.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Escarabajo said:
Botero:



Botero's son's name is Nicolas if I am not mistaken.:(

National Federations investigating their own cyclists doping ofenses constitutes a huge Conflict of Interests for the sport.

Come on, Santiago rode for Kelme from 1997 to 2002 and we are to believe that he was completely clean?:confused:

Even in interviews for El Tiempo Botero used to say that he arrived young and naive to Europe and that he just did what Management and Doctors told him to do. What does this mean?
botero was acquitted by both uci and colombian federation after sending documents that showed him being in colombia during so called meetings with fuentes in the puerto files, I'm not saying he never used doping but he's just as suspicious as allan davis for instance.
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
botero was acquitted by both uci and colombian federation after sending documents that showed him being in colombia during so called meetings with fuentes in the puerto files, I'm not saying he never used doping but he's just as suspicious as allan davis for instance.
People think Davis is innocent? Oh well, maybe some Aussies.
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
botero was acquitted by both uci and colombian federation after sending documents that showed him being in colombia during so called meetings with fuentes in the puerto files, I'm not saying he never used doping but he's just as suspicious as allan davis for instance.
1. Not being where they are supposed to be is a bit of pro cyclist specialty. Just ask the Chicken, Rasmussen.

2. Is the Colombian federation as impartial as the RFEC? (won't even bother asking about the UCI)

3. The meeting got rescheduled?

4. Hello? Anyone ever hear of a phone conference?

Unless it was extraction or infusion time, the phone does a pretty good job of discussing the 'training plan', payments, etc.

So, yes, let's just trust another 'exoneration'.

Dave.
 

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