Clean Colombians? (Arkea investigation page 27)

[Benotti69]

Cycling is officially clean. Colombians winning means the sport is finally clean.......Yay!

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Jarlinson Pantano has had a nice transformation to GC contender after dissappearing to Colombia for 2 months.

Where he habitually trained with Nairo and Anacona at high altitude. Maybe that has something to do with his improved form...

Did he not train at high altitude before?

 

[AlexNYC]

Re: Re:

Jarlinson Pantano has had a nice transformation to GC contender after dissappearing to Colombia for 2 months.

Where he habitually trained with Nairo and Anacona at high altitude. Maybe that has something to do with his improved form...

Did he not train at high altitude before?

The point is that he didn't disappear in Colombia; he was filmed and photographed training with Quintana, basically following the same program that has worked for Nairo the last few years. Also, I think the word 'transformation' is not fair; he did finish in the top 10 last year in Catalunya, not to mention his good TdF.

 

[doperhopper]

sometimes natural altitude doping is not enough

http://www.velonews.com/2016/11/news/colombian-tests-positive-epo-red-hook-crit_425426

 

[hfer07]

Re:

Jarlinson Pantano has had a nice transformation to GC contender after dissappearing to Colombia for 2 months.

a "GC contender"....

 

[sniper]

Re:

sometimes natural altitude doping is not enough

http://www.velonews.com/2016/11/news/colombian-tests-positive-epo-red-hook-crit_425426

Maybe this guy can still save his own ass though by referring the UCI to the upcoming Sky study on colombian altitude natives, which is going to explain why blood values of Colombian procyclists are typically all over the place. UCI presidents son helped perform the study, so that should add to the credibity of the study.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

sometimes natural altitude doping is not enough

http://www.velonews.com/2016/11/news/colombian-tests-positive-epo-red-hook-crit_425426

Those races are probably the worst for doping.

Bad that it had to be a Colombian!

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

sometimes natural altitude doping is not enough

http://www.velonews.com/2016/11/news/colombian-tests-positive-epo-red-hook-crit_425426

Those races are probably the worst for doping.

Bad that it had to be a Colombian!

Yes, but at least the typical arrogant Granfondo-doper dopes to win a hard races, not the freaking Italian version of the red hook crit.

 

[jahn]

Re: Re:

sometimes natural altitude doping is not enough

http://www.velonews.com/2016/11/news/colombian-tests-positive-epo-red-hook-crit_425426

Those races are probably the worst for doping.

Bad that it had to be a Colombian!

Yes, but at least the typical arrogant Granfondo-doper dopes to win a hard races, not the freaking Italian version of the red hook crit.

It's more prestigious than most, if not all, Grand Fondos I reckon, especially to a non hardcore cycling fan. There's also the prize money.

 

[Benotti69]

Óscar Álvarez PANIAGUA (39, Colombia) EPO - banned for 4 years until 16.06.2020

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/17/32/52/20170110SanctionADRVENG2.0_English.pdf

 

[Benotti69]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=daEolidhzes

 

[Norks74]

Re:

Óscar Álvarez PANIAGUA (39, Colombia) EPO - banned for 4 years until 16.06.2020

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/17/32/52/20170110SanctionADRVENG2.0_English.pdf

Is that for real? ha ha ha....bread & water...

 

[staubsauger]

Ain't a certain gynecologist rumored to operate from a South American country nowadays? I guess the latest renaissance of Colombian cycling or Colombian sport generally might be pretty much related to that. Just like Italy's golden sports generation of the 90s. Or Spains golden generation of the zeros etc. pp. Kinda obvious where the hunny pot stores these days.

 

[King Boonen]

Quintana attempting Giro-Tour double...

 

[masking_agent]

Re:

All sarcasm aside, there's reason to think that the Colombians as a whole were clean(ish) or at least that they didn't benefit as much from doping in the 90s. In the second half of the 80s, the Colombians were a growing force in Europe. Their decline coincides precisely with the spread of EPO in the pro peloton. Now, why would those very talented folks like Lucho Herrera (who retired at 31, thirty-one) suddenly stop being a factor, when they had already paid their dues and adapted to European cycling?

Herrera also gave us a perfect quote to describe the early 90s: "when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew." His case is similar to LeMond's.

yes they WERE clean, but not in today's world. I think they are conducting themselves just like any other pro who wants to win. Dive in a bit with the hot sauce, and then stop, and then take it again, and see how the numbers shake down from the doctors.

 

[sniper]

Re:

All sarcasm aside, there's reason to think that the Colombians as a whole were clean(ish) or at least that they didn't benefit as much from doping in the 90s. In the second half of the 80s, the Colombians were a growing force in Europe. Their decline coincides precisely with the spread of EPO in the pro peloton. Now, why would those very talented folks like Lucho Herrera (who retired at 31, thirty-one) suddenly stop being a factor, when they had already paid their dues and adapted to European cycling?

Herrera also gave us a perfect quote to describe the early 90s: "when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew." His case is similar to LeMond's.

Not to take anything away from the the rest of your point, and merely as an aside,
Lemond couldn't finish races anymore. That obviously had little to do with other riders being on EPO. His body simply couldn't cope anymore.
This is by and large uncontroversial among those who think he doped as well as those who think he didn't.

By conteast Hampste n for instance was still going as stronstrong as evver in 1992. when Lemon d was not finishing anymore. Bauer was also still in contention.

Other thing is that 89 is when we have riders including the tdfs lantern rouge on epo, so its plausible to assume that in 90 a considerable number was on EPO. Lemond won it that year.

And meanwhile we saw riders like Rooks and Planckaert going backwards in the early 90s, despite being on EPO by their own admission.

Just saying there is little reason to link lemonds decline to others using EPO, and herreras case does not look similar to me.

On topic:
Raul Alcala is an interesting case. He was allegedly the only pdm rider who didn't get sick in 91.

 

[Escarabajo]

I thought Rooks had a high hematocrit to begin with. One good reason why he would not benefit as much as others.

That was at the beginning part of the problems with the Colombians as well.

Now doping is so "specialized" with so much stuff that we don't know anymore.

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

Quintana attempting Giro-Tour double...

probably just a good excuse (you know, I won tough Giro, cannot beat marginal Vroom)

 

[Djoop]

Deleted post

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

From directvélo:

José Flober Pena Pena, Giovanni Baez Alvarez (US Lamentin) et José Daniel Bernal Garcia (Rayon d'Argent de Fond Masson) ont été contrôlés positif à l'EPO Cera sur le Tour de Guadeloupe (2.2).

 

[movingtarget]

I don't see why Colombia would be different to anywhere else. If Quintana does the double then you have your answer.

 

[Escarabajo]

There you have it fellows. From Mejias mouth even after retirement. His career cut short:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/alvaro-mejia-i-would-have-liked-to-have-raced-in-a-clean-era/

I remember my brother telling me after the RCN classic. He just beat all the greats in the TT. This rider if our next "Herrera" if not better. I never understood what happened to him. Completely gone after a short stint.

Ryo has said it in this forum that he was even better than Herrera. But, you know for the Colombians in those days was kind of tough.

Lance once said about Mejia that he lacked determination. Now we know what he meant by that.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

There you have it fellows. From Mejias mouth even after retirement. His career cut short:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/alvaro-mejia-i-would-have-liked-to-have-raced-in-a-clean-era/

I remember my brother telling me after the RCN classic. He just beat all the greats in the TT. This rider if our next "Herrera" if not better. I never understood what happened to him. Completely gone after a short stint.

Ryo has said it in this forum that he was even better than Herrera. But, you know for the Colombians in those days was kind of tough.

Lance once said about Mejia that he lacked determination. Now we know what he meant by that.

I was a huge fan of Mejia. At the time I couldn't understand why he wasn't winning everything in sight. He was a true champion like Hinault, Lemond, etc. In retrospect I guess it all makes sense.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Is CN on some kind of quest to invent clean 80s/90s guys out of thin air?
They might as well start with Erik Breukink who's on the record saying almost the exact same things as Mejia in that interview. In fact, that Mejia interview could be a google translate of these Breukink interviews:
http://www.ad.nl/wielrennen/breukink-epo-maakte-zo-n-groot-verschil~abc6ff18/
http://heldenonline.nl/columns/entry/breukink-epo-maakte-zon-groot-verschil

He was a true champion like Hinault, Lemond, etc.

As neither you nor me can guarantee any of those guys was clean, I wonder if "true champion" is an appropriate concept/label. Well, unless we decide to take doping out of the equation of course which maybe you did right there.
That's just a thought btw. I mean feel free to apply the label to whomever you deem worthy.

 

[yaco]

We can't prove any athlete is clean or a doper unless they come up with a positive or there are concrete links with doping doctors - Seems like some are disappointed if an athlete states they never doped - As cynical as I am about doping, there is no doubt some cyclists rode clean - For some the truth is unpalatable.