"clean", "suspect", "miraculous" and "mutants"

[webvan]

That is not my point at all. I am not saying that the drugs give equal or even similar boosts in performance.

I am asking if the drugs of the pre epo era allowed you to improve you power number beyond what could normally do as opposed to help you sustain your existing ones.

There is only one guy with a 'clean sheet' from that list. Assuming it is Lemond then there must be something in the other guys performances (of that era) that are being flagged wrt power, no?

Yes, it's a bit confusing, why does Hinault get flagged vs Lemond, because he refused to take a test in a crit once? That wouldn't be "fair" if they base their opinions on the "colors"?

 

[Gregga]

What does the number on the far left indicate?

Actually... the page number

 

[burning]

Actually... the page number

lol I thought it was some sort of doping score
But I think the page numbers sorts from cleanest to most mutant?

 

[spalco]

This is from that book that was advertised here a while ago and the thread deleted, no?

 

[Gregga]

Yes, it's a bit confusing, why does Hinault get flagged vs Lemond, because he refused to take a test in a crit once? That wouldn't be "fair" if they base their opinions on the "colors"?

Badger's yellow flag is due to a "not normal" mountain TT in 1981 in Avoriaz I believe, that day he did something like 6.4 W/kg which is a lot for pre-EPO era.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The Lance fanboys aren't going to like the fact that Greg Lemond is rightfully labeled as having been clean.

 

[hiero2]

Is this about Vayer's book? I see Vayer's name all over the article, but I don't read French.

Google translate yields the lead-in paras:

A magazine entitled "All doped Whether evidence by 21" is available today. Written at the initiative of French Antoine Vayer, analyzes and criticizes the performance of 21 riders based on their power in watts.

Cycling coach, teacher, and former amateur rider Antoine Vayer now heads a research unit, training and communication called "ALTERNATIVE". After years of columns in the French daily Le Monde and Libération, this time he chose to create his own magazine to denounce doping in the cycling world. After years of work and research, he published today "All doped? Proof by 21."

In this magazine, Antoine Vayer and his team (Frederick Portoleau (responsible for power calculations), Stéphane Huby (webmaster dopage.com-cycling) and Jean-Pierre De Mondenard (doctor specializing in sports doping)) analyze performance of 21 riders on the basis of the power they develop in the necks of various large towers. A power that is expressed through a unit of measurement: the watt. The desire here is to examine the performance as an indicator of doping and not, as usual, via the traditional controls and biological analyzes. . . .

From what I've heard here, I'm glad to see Vayer get some attention. We had somebody post a promo in the forum for his book - but had to delete it as it was definitely advertorial. Didn't like doing it - but we gave the poster the option to write a legit post - and they didn't. So I'm glad to see this.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That is not my point at all. I am not saying that the drugs give equal or even similar boosts in performance.

I am asking if the drugs of the pre epo era allowed you to improve you power number beyond what could normally do as opposed to help you sustain your existing ones.

There is only one guy with a 'clean sheet' from that list. Assuming it is Lemond then there must be something in the other guys performances (of that era) that are being flagged wrt power, no?

Okay, I misunderstood you.
When I get the magazine I will address this question, maybe l'Arriviste can be of help already.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Okay, I misunderstood you.
When I get the magazine I will address this question, maybe l'Arriviste can be of help already.

No problem. I probably did not phrase my question very well.

Yes, have put an order in myself but would appreciate any further explanation.

 

[Gregga]

Is this about Vayer's book? I see Vayer's name all over the article, but I don't read French.

Yes Vayer, his mate Portoleau and Jamie Fuller for the $$$
I guess this magazine wouldn't have existed without CCN and Skins, because there are adds for Skins every ten pages !

In 1999/2000 Vayer made calculations about Armstrong showing he would have smoked Indurain even in ITT, this was in Le Monde, but nobody cared, that was pre-"LA confidentiel", pre-Walsh, but the numbers were already obvious...

 

[hiero2]

. . .

I am asking if the drugs of the pre epo era allowed you to improve you power number beyond what could normally do as opposed to help you sustain your existing ones.
. . .

We certainly have people here who would know - but they might not read in this forum, or this thread. My understanding is no, they didn't help improve your power, or not beyond a small amount - for instance, you could get a small apparent power gain by masking pain. It would really be closer to "sustain your existing", but still.

But here is the thing - this is not my field of expertise. I might have a little knowledge, but for this specific a question, I hope you get an answer from some of our posters who have expertise.

 

[webvan]

Badger's yellow flag is due to a "not normal" mountain TT in 1981 in Avoriaz I believe, that day he did something like 6.4 W/kg which is a lot for pre-EPO era.

Thanks, so how do they explain it? He took "speed" to push back his limits and gain power ? I thought only EPO and BBs could do that, but since it was a short ITT...Could it be that their calcs are wrong sometimes, I hope they don't rule that out...

EDIT - it seems we're all struggling with that "power" concept, hope they have a decent explanation in the mag...

 

[The Hitch]

Whats the book's name in English?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Whats the book's name in English?

21 Counts

 

[JRTinMA]

If Contador's actual weight was used I doubt he would be mutant. He's 8 to 10 Kgs below the normalized 70.

 

[King Boonen]

They calculate watts for a virtual 70kg rider with 8kg bike + equipment
So "suspect" is above 5.85 W/kg (=410/70)
"miraculous" is above 6.14 W/kg
"mutant" is above 6.4

IMO Contador shouldn't be among the "mutants", Verbier '09 seems to be an artefact in their calculations as at least 10 riders were mutants that day, including Wiggins, maybe a strong tailwind even though they said it had been taken into account.

Have you read the magazine? Surely they don't based their numbers on the analysis of one climb?

 

[The Hitch]

Three posts, new record?

Wiggin's and froome are the first 2 picturs in the post, both their names appear in the analysis and the front cover of the book has Wiggins.

So to suggest I am hijacking the thread by mentioning wiggins (not even by name) is just a **** poor attempt at trolling from you.

Especially since i was the one who earlier today criticised people for bringing sky into other threads too much.

 

[King Boonen]

Wiggin's and froome are the first 2 picturs in the post, both their names appear in the analysis and the front cover of the book has Wiggins.

So to suggest I am hijacking the thread by mentioning wiggins (not even by name) is just a **** poor attempt at trolling from you.

Especially since i was the one who earlier today criticised people for bringing sky into other threads too much.

Not an attempt to troll at all, I just think there are much more interesting things to discuss about this than a guy who sits very low on the suspicion ratings in this list. The instant questioning of how they reach those numbers was what raised my eyebrows, which were further raised as people piled in to try and defend Contador.

Anybody else wish they were selling a PDF version? I'd probably buy it if they were.

 

[Gregga]

Have you read the magazine? Surely they don't based their numbers on the analysis of one climb?

I've got the magazine but not here with me. Anyway, yes they use many climbs over years, it's sometimes funny how guys like Virenque went from constantly above 6.3 in 1994-1997 to under 5.7 the latest years of his carreer. Actually, from 2000 to 2004, Virenque is almost "green"

Pantani is dark red from 1994 to 2000... Armstrong is green in 1999, except from Sestrières, against an almost clean post-Festina field he just had to control... 2000 was very different, the arm race was back, that maybe explains Bruyneel's decision to switch to transfusions (cf Hamilton' book)

 

[The Hitch]

surprised they didnt analyze Sastre. Also is this what vayer had in mind when he made his tweet about Nibali? Because Nibali isn't mentioned here either.

 

[whittashau]

If this is based entirely on numbers then how is Froome in a different category from Wiggo in the last Tour? Considering that always finished together bar the first MTF which Froome was 2 seconds ahead and one other stage where he got about 2 seconds?

Or was Wiggo just 4 seconds from being miraculous too?

 

[King Boonen]

surprised they didnt analyze Sastre. Also is this what vayer had in mind when he made his tweet about Nibali? Because Nibali isn't mentioned here either.

Link to twitter account for lazy people?

 

[King Boonen]

I've got the magazine but not here with me. Anyway, yes they use many climbs over years, it's sometimes funny how guys like Virenque went from constantly above 6.3 in 1994-1997 to under 5.7 the latest years of his carreer. Actually, from 2000 to 2004, Virenque is almost "green"

Pantani is dark red from 1994 to 2000... Armstrong is green in 1999, except from Sestrières, against an almost clean post-Festina field he just had to control... 2000 was very different, the arm race was back, that maybe explains Bruyneel's decision to switch to transfusions (cf Hamilton' book)

Worth the money? Is it a magazine or a bound book?

So is it just that one climb that tips things against Contador? I'd still, foolishly probably, like to believe he is clean...

 

[whittashau]

surprised they didnt analyze Sastre. Also is this what vayer had in mind when he made his tweet about Nibali? Because Nibali isn't mentioned here either.

Someone should probably tweet him about what category Nibbles would be in based on the Giro.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Link to twitter account for lazy people?

Try this account