CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

...William of Ockham says 'hi'.

Hi William.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

An honorable exercise in self-examination. However, William of Ockham says 'hi'.

My previous reply was a bit flippant. I tend to agree, invoking old William is appropriate.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

An honorable exercise in self-examination. However, William of Ockham says 'hi'.

My previous reply was a bit flippant. I tend to agree, invoking old William is appropriate.

No, I understood, it was entirely on point.

 

[Dan2016]

Cheers.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Re:

As I said, I don't know the numbers seeking medical help for cycling-related injuries or otherwise with BC, but that's not what i'm claiming. I'm claiming there's 1500 Foundation level riders under the UKSport funding and BC Coaching umbrella within BCs Olympic Rider Route and you can get medical help from BC at this level. Obviously we're not talking club and go-ride etc. They're not subsidiaries or clubs/schools. They're riders nominated by clubs to be coached under Great Britain Cycling Team Regional School of Racing and coached as groups by GBCT Foundation-level Coaches. Basically it's the starting point of the Olympic program and where funding begins.

Sam I realize that admitting you are wrong is something that you would never ever do, but scrolling up shows that you have serious memory and reading issues.

Sure, in reality there's only a couple of thousand top level athletes across CX, MTB, Road, Track & BMX using or accessing BC's Doctors, but 70 viles of Kenalog that last 3 years on the shelf seems relatively low for so many riders if that's what the order was for?

The top level has been debunked. Which is obvious to anyone who actually knows the sport. There's no country with thousands of top level cyclists, especially not a country without a cycling culture as the UK.

Also, you explicitly claimed this mass of top level athletes was indeed accessing or using these doctors.

Sam, read your own posts and come back to us. Perhaps you do not realize it, but you are disqualifying yourself as a person with a valid opinion by this nonsense and flat out refusal of retreating from factually demolished positions.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

i think this has been covered...the jiffy bag is now irrelevant...as is even the kenalog

if not sanctionable and otherwise innocent...how did we end up here?

but here we are...

and if this is the mess they are in due to non-sanctionable stuff then...well...the fridge is full and the bottle opener on stand-by

Edit: for the avoidance of doubt, that's my fridge btw...who knows what you'll find in theirs

I'm struggling to keep up. Jiffy bag and kenalog are now irrelevant? So it's the record keeping etc., that's the only relevant bit, is that right?

Still doesn't completely negate my point, I think (I'm not sure). The things that started all of this could actually be innocent (devils advocate), but they've been shafted getting caught in covering up other stuff and general complete incompetence.

It's very entertaining though, I agree, whatever the truth is.

in effect yes....

speeding at 33 in a 30 they could have pulled over, held their hands up and said...'its a fair cop guv'

"its a grey area and hey, some cops would have let us off but we'll take it on the chin."

but....they decided to speed off.....Sir Dave at the wheel

so, finding out what is hidden in the boot is now the real issue...the 33mph speeding offence is now, virtually, irrelevant...

 

[thehog]

I like how Freeman managed to upload the 2014 version of his CV in 2017 when his laptop was stolen in 2014 :surprised:

Must have had a backup?

 

[Electress]

I like how Freeman managed to upload the 2014 version of his CV in 2017 when his laptop was stolen in 2014 :surprised:

Must have had a backup?

Date of theft? Summertime for the Greek holiday, presumably? Leaves rest of 2014 with a new computer.

Now, if it had the 2013 CV, we'd be cooking on gaz, coz it'd show he was totally capable of uploading to Dropbox. He just 'forgot'.

 

[thehog]

I like how Freeman managed to upload the 2014 version of his CV in 2017 when his laptop was stolen in 2014 :surprised:

Must have had a backup?

Date of theft? Summertime for the Greek holiday, presumably? Leaves rest of 2014 with a new computer.

Now, if it had the 2013 CV, we'd be cooking on gaz, coz it'd show he was totally capable of uploading to Dropbox. He just 'forgot'.

Date or the theft doesn't matter because when the laptop was stole all his files went with it. However in February 2017 he uploaded then 2014 version of his CV. Now where did that file come from?

 

[Electress]

I like how Freeman managed to upload the 2014 version of his CV in 2017 when his laptop was stolen in 2014 :surprised:

Must have had a backup?

Date of theft? Summertime for the Greek holiday, presumably? Leaves rest of 2014 with a new computer.

Now, if it had the 2013 CV, we'd be cooking on gaz, coz it'd show he was totally capable of uploading to Dropbox. He just 'forgot'.

Date or the theft doesn't matter because when the laptop was stole all his files went with it. However in February 2017 he uploaded then 2014 version of his CV. Now where did that file come from?

But surely he could simply have drafted a new CV on his new (still 2014) computer after his one with all the medical files on was "nicked" Legitimately it's still his 2014 CV. He then uploads it now (for some reason??)
Am I being thick?

 

[thehog]

Good to see omertà is alive and well:

Independent review into British Cycling potentially undermined by code of silence adopted by riders

Independent review into British Cycling expected to be damning
A key conclusion is that a 'culture of fear' existed under Sir Dave Brailsford
The review is not expected to have included the testimony of big-name riders
Sir Bradley Wiggins, Laura Kenny and Mark Cavendish have opted for silence

 

[Nick C.]

Good to see omertà is alive and well:

Independent review into British Cycling potentially undermined by code of silence adopted by riders

Independent review into British Cycling expected to be damning
A key conclusion is that a 'culture of fear' existed under Sir Dave Brailsford
The review is not expected to have included the testimony of big-name riders
Sir Bradley Wiggins, Laura Kenny and Mark Cavendish have opted for silence

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVzwFUMFYaLIAplVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1489092742/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.espn.com%2folympics%2fcycling%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d2908804/RK=0/RS=03_T_sEuYZ4T6KP85JEgSz6syjg-

I'm not sure if the link works but it is an article about the UCI pledge form back in 2007 promising to refund a year's salary if they are caught doping. Cav was front and center signing on at a press conference. Ten years later and we have this.

 

[Dan2016]

Good to see omertà is alive and well:

Independent review into British Cycling potentially undermined by code of silence adopted by riders

Independent review into British Cycling expected to be damning
A key conclusion is that a 'culture of fear' existed under Sir Dave Brailsford
The review is not expected to have included the testimony of big-name riders
Sir Bradley Wiggins, Laura Kenny and Mark Cavendish have opted for silence

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVzwFUMFYaLIAplVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1489092742/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.espn.com%2folympics%2fcycling%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d2908804/RK=0/RS=03_T_sEuYZ4T6KP85JEgSz6syjg-

I'm not sure if the link works but it is an article about the UCI pledge form back in 2007 promising to refund a year's salary if they are caught doping. Cav was front and center signing on at a press conference. Ten years later and we have this.

Thanks for the link, it worked fine for me.
Interesting idea, I missed that one at the time. It seems like all of these measures are for appearances only, the system trying to exert some morality that doesn't exists, cannot exist. It's always the riders that take the fall, pariahs made. They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.

 

[sniper]

They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.

You could go so deep on this.
Actual crimes, like insurance fraud, property scams. Wiggins with his bent foundation. Establishment collusion, illegal betting. The obvious stuff like corruption with cycling, Gilbert and Cookson at UCI. Why the hell does barely anybody seem to care? We end up talking about a frigging jiffy bag of kenacort which in itself is the soft tip of doping iceberg.

 

[Dan2016]

They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.

You could go so deep on this.
Actual crimes, like insurance fraud, property scams. Wiggins with his bent foundation. Establishment collusion, illegal betting. The obvious stuff like corruption with cycling, Gilbert and Cookson at UCI. Why the hell does barely anybody seem to care? We end up talking about a frigging jiffy bag of kenacort which in itself is the soft tip of doping iceberg.

Agreed. The jiffy bag is the ritual sacrifice to pacify and placate the public. We go through these sham sacrifices repeatedly. The new season is ushered in, everything will be better. Appearances are all the matter. These are the mechanisms of bent systems in all societies. Endlessly distracting from the fact that it's the system itself that doesn't work.

 

[Catwhoorg]

How can a package that wasn't actually ordered but sent by mistake have a destination?

From someone who has actually unpacked pharmaceutical deliveries at retail pharmacy*, you get a big box with a checklist of contents.
Start pulling them out and checking them off the paper copy of contents.

It was rare to find and error, but it would happen.
Usually around the dosage level, but gosh darnit so many drugs have similar sounding and looking names.

So I can actually believe that this is plausible.
Wrong thing got packed into a larger box.

The fact that it was a known and well abused PED makes the story suspicious, but on its own its not evidence of anything.


*many moons ago admittedly, but essentially the same systems are in place today.

 

[sniper]

They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.

You could go so deep on this.
Actual crimes, like insurance fraud, property scams. Wiggins with his bent foundation. Establishment collusion, illegal betting. The obvious stuff like corruption with cycling, Gilbert and Cookson at UCI. Why the hell does barely anybody seem to care? We end up talking about a frigging jiffy bag of kenacort which in itself is the soft tip of doping iceberg.

Agreed. The jiffy bag is the ritual sacrifice to pacify and placate the public. We go through these sham sacrifices repeatedly. The new season is ushered in, everything will be better. Appearances are all the matter. These are the mechanisms of bent systems in all societies. Endlessly distracting from the fact that it's the system itself that doesn't work.

Well said.
Its symptomatic of the wider world, with only a hardcore of wankers like us.
90% of the world dont give 3 shits about anything. And thats why its rife and rampant.
There are no systems in place to truly stop it because all the wrong people are in the right positions.

 

[blackcat]

They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.

You could go so deep on this.
Actual crimes, like insurance fraud, property scams. Wiggins with his bent foundation. Establishment collusion, illegal betting. The obvious stuff like corruption with cycling, Gilbert and Cookson at UCI. Why the hell does barely anybody seem to care? We end up talking about a frigging jiffy bag of kenacort which in itself is the soft tip of doping iceberg.

Agreed. The jiffy bag is the ritual sacrifice to pacify and placate the public. We go through these sham sacrifices repeatedly. The new season is ushered in, everything will be better. Appearances are all the matter. These are the mechanisms of bent systems in all societies. Endlessly distracting from the fact that it's the system itself that doesn't work.

Well said.
Its symptomatic of the wider world, with only a hardcore of wankers like us.
90% of the world dont give 3 shits about anything. And thats why its rife and rampant.
There are no systems in place to truly stop it because all the wrong people are in the right positions.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/43290
Yeats' Second Coming
the best lack all conviction
the worst have passionate intensity

 

[blackcat]

Agreed. The jiffy bag is the ritual sacrifice to pacify and placate the public. We go through these sham sacrifices repeatedly. The new season is ushered in, everything will be better. Appearances are all the matter. These are the mechanisms of bent systems in all societies. Endlessly distracting from the fact that it's the system itself that doesn't work.

for intelligence agencies and spooks, the call this a limited hangout. release some information, whilst hiding the most damaging information, and potentially misdirecting watchful eyes on this topic.

 

[yaco]

There is at least one poster who had some form of CONTACT with the Australian Track Cycling Program, who could probably give reasons why riders may not co-operate with the BC Inquiry - Some have a mistaken belief that individuals should self-incriminate - This is wishful thinking.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

There is at least one poster who had some form of CONTACT with the Australian Track Cycling Program, who could probably give reasons why riders may not co-operate with the BC Inquiry - Some have a mistaken belief that individuals should self-incriminate - This is wishful thinking.

it is a fallacy.

like the no needles rule.

they already took hypodermics to inject the PEDs, which was explicitly outlawed. <eyesroll>

so outlawing the hypodermics is like a tautology regulation, a pleonasm dress up in a rule. #helmutroole ftw.

no needles is a much lower bar to circumvent when they were circumventing the higher bar of PEDS innit

also, the poster @King_Boonen, the PEDs that come in patches, trans dermis creams, steroids/androgens/peptides & other, much lower psychological bar for an athlete to transgress

#fallacies and #priapses
#phoneticTypos&malaprops

 

[thehog]

Draft report is out;

THE REPORT'S KEY FINDINGS

The British Cycling board ‘sanitised’ the investigation into Jess Varnish’s allegations against former technical director Shane Sutton, ‘reversing’ the initial findings to suit their own agenda. Varnish lost her funding ‘as an act of retaliation’ for criticising coaching staff and was ‘simply removed’ from the programme instead of being warned about her performance.
Former performance director Sir Dave Brailsford was ‘untouchable’, taking decisions about the multi-million-pound budget himself. Staff were regularly dispatched with confidential settlement agreements if relationships broke down and there was a perception of ‘jobs for the boys’.
Some elite cyclists have ‘experienced trauma’ at British Cycling and described a programme ‘characterised by fear and bullying from leadership figures’.
There is a ‘culture of fear’ among staff, some of whom are treated like children. Some staff are ‘frightened to speak out and are being bullied’.
Para-cyclists were sometimes called ‘wobblies’ or ‘gimps’ and the athletes took possession of these terms, setting up a WhatsApp group called ‘Wobblies&Gimps’.
Leadership at board level is inadequate and there is a ‘cloak-and-dagger’ atmosphere. A ‘systematic overhaul’ of leadership has been recommended.
The successful pursuit of medals has had a ‘blinding effect’, meaning serious issues have been ignored for a long time. UK Sport, which will give British Cycling £34million in the current Olympic cycle, did not monitor the sport in ‘any meaningful way’.
Former technical director Shane Sutton was never suitable for a management role and used crude language as he operated in an ‘old school’ way.
Boundaries between British Cycling and Team Sky were ‘blurred’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4298982/British-Cycling-s-wheels-blown-explosive-report.html

 

[thehog]

‘The apparently deliberate reversal of the grievance officer’s draft outcome by the British Cycling Board gives every impression of it trying to achieve that aim,’ says the report.

‘The actions of the British Cycling Board in that regard are shocking and inexcusable. They also call into serious question whether the composition of the British Cycling Board is fit to govern a national sporting body.’

The panel is also critical of the way the investigation was conducted, saying the ‘approach was inappropriate and indicative of vested interests within the British Cycling Board who wished to control the grievance outcome.

‘The Panel is also aware that, rather than authorising its appointed grievance officer to come to conclusions following their investigations into the former technical director (Sutton), the conclusions were to be decided upon by the British Cycling Board collectively,’ says the draft copy of the review.

The review is also critical of the way Varnish was axed, even if it recognises that the process applied to the selection of riders is generally ‘robust and good’.

:surprised:

 

[Electress]

How can a package that wasn't actually ordered but sent by mistake have a destination?

From someone who has actually unpacked pharmaceutical deliveries at retail pharmacy*, you get a big box with a checklist of contents.
Start pulling them out and checking them off the paper copy of contents.

It was rare to find and error, but it would happen.
Usually around the dosage level, but gosh darnit so many drugs have similar sounding and looking names.

So I can actually believe that this is plausible.
Wrong thing got packed into a larger box.

The fact that it was a known and well abused PED makes the story suspicious, but on its own its not evidence of anything.


*many moons ago admittedly, but essentially the same systems are in place today.

I think you have missed my point. What actually happened re. the delivery was not it. It was the way it was explained by Freeman. Firstly saying it was delivered in error. Secondly that it "was not destined for any riders."

To me, that is a rather strange construction. A package delivered in error has no 'destination'. It wasn't 'destined' for anyone because no one ordered it. It merely arrived. However, Freeman's second statement implies that the package had been ordered, and he was claiming it just hadn't been ordered for any cyclists.

I'm not claiming this to be anything more than an ambiguity in language, and maybe means nothing at all. But, having done audits, this of phrasing would trigger my suspicions, because people being investigated will usually try to construct their answers to ensure they minimise / ameliorate the lies and hence ways of being caught out. A hypothesis in this case may be that Freeman said the latter to UKAD (the former was said internally) so as to cover the potential eventuality of a paper trail being found which indicated an order was made.

But, as I say, it's an ambiguity. It could simply mean nothing at all.

 

[blackcat]

How can a package that wasn't actually ordered but sent by mistake have a destination?

From someone who has actually unpacked pharmaceutical deliveries at retail pharmacy*, you get a big box with a checklist of contents.
Start pulling them out and checking them off the paper copy of contents.

It was rare to find and error, but it would happen.
Usually around the dosage level, but gosh darnit so many drugs have similar sounding and looking names.

So I can actually believe that this is plausible.
Wrong thing got packed into a larger box.

The fact that it was a known and well abused PED makes the story suspicious, but on its own its not evidence of anything.


*many moons ago admittedly, but essentially the same systems are in place today.

I think you have missed my point. What actually happened re. the delivery was not it. It was the way it was explained by Freeman. Firstly saying it was delivered in error. Secondly that it "was not destined for any riders."

To me, that is a rather strange construction. A package delivered in error has no 'destination'. It wasn't 'destined' for anyone because no one ordered it. It merely arrived. However, Freeman's second statement implies that the package had been ordered, and he was claiming it just hadn't been ordered for any cyclists.

I'm not claiming this to be anything more than an ambiguity in language, and maybe means nothing at all. But, having done audits, this of phrasing would trigger my suspicions, because people being investigated will usually try to construct their answers to ensure they minimise / ameliorate the lies and hence ways of being caught out. A hypothesis in this case may be that Freeman said the latter to UKAD (the former was said internally) so as to cover the potential eventuality of a paper trail being found which indicated an order was made.

But, as I say, it's an ambiguity. It could simply mean nothing at all.

lady macbeth lady doth protest too much,
or,
just clumsy.


ofcourse, I think it is clumsy.

but clumsy in a false dichotomy type of way.

its cycling, its doping. nothing unusual, no major value judgement. so what, they doped. its all a bit absurd.