Cobo Talk Only

[Scirea]

Me on Froome


Lets look at Cobo and see a list of things he has done that Froome hasn’t that I’d argue demonstrate that any attempt to suggest their performances are comparable is a nonsense. The reason for strong suspicions of Cobo:

- back to back attacks on consecutive stages pulling away from the entire peloton at full tilt (i.e. establishing he is the strongest rider bar none on both days, including yesterday, a net gain on Wiggins & Froome despite them taking turns to chase him down in the last few kilometres on a relatively modest gradient of 7-9% that suited the Sky pair better.

- his physical appearance in both attacks gave minimal indication of any physical exertion and, much more importantly, this was corroborated by no discernable loss of speed due to fatigue at any point.

- despite taking it fairly easy (i.e. looking over his shoulder repeatedly, arguably sandbagging until the last 3-4kms) on Angliru, he still bet 2008 vintage clenbuterol Contador’s time up the climb and clocked an almighty 6.2 w/kgs for the entirety of the climb (according to the power to weight thread). We can but wonder what was possible if he'd gone flat out from the time of his initial attack.

- did a stonking Time Trial that at the time was described by a commentator as “overachieving”

- is performing in a Geox squad widely ridiculed for its lack of tactical nous and pre-race preparation – despite the team shortcomings he excels nonetheless.

- has performed for a team that was so blighted by doping in the 2008 Tour, that it was withdrawn

- on said tour, was the only human being capable of staying with a clearly doping Piepolli in one of the most notoriously farcical finishes in modern times.

- on leaving his team he goes from a Top 10 Vuelta finisher in 2009 to a complete nobody in 2010, then goes to GT heir apparent in 2011 when reunited with his old buddies apparently connected to the 2008 'glory' days.

I trust that this comparison leaves little doubt that a suggestion that Froome & Cobo are peas in a pod is way off mark (although in no way is that evidence of Froome riding unaided). Each case/rider has to be studied alone on their own merits. Also, please note, I have no bias with regards folk of Kenyan or Spanish origin (although I do have a soft spot for the Kenyan Rugby 7s team). My favourite riders are probably Nibali & Sastre.

The only defence you can make against Cobo is that he hasn’t tested positive and that the guys they are beating aren’t great as they are all either clearly massively underperforming favourites, are very young/inexperienced or have a Giro or TdF in their legs.

These counter arguments just about help me to keep giving Mr Froome the benefit of the doubt (plus his w/kgs haven't been anything outrageous this Vuelta despite the unusual assumptions made by others). But the weight of argument against Cobo means I’m far less inclined to be so generous with him. Always happy to hear counter arguments though.

Wow, didn't read so many stupid things in one comment for a longtime. Must be a Froome fanboy. Could be hard for you, throwing dirt on the leader of the race when your guy is the dirtiest of all for sure.

 

[Parrot23]

Is having a big nose proof that somebody uses HGH?

Absolutely, this pic explains it all. Check out the really big nose. Everything goes in through da nose.

Evidently some other posters have never heard about culture, as in "culture of doping".

I haven't heard of a host of French riders routinely being pilloried with doping suspicions. Why? There ain't a widespread culture of doping in France, and hasn't been for quite a while.

Heck, the reason the southern tier of Europe is so much weaker than the northern tier at the moment (and the Euro is about to fall apart) is purely because economic commentators who call a shoe a shoe are prejudiced, a bunch of racists, heck!

 

[Scirea]

And as to those who are saying Chris Froome was a 'useless' rider before this race I think you are mistaken. He finished 12th in the young rider catagory in his first Tour De France in 2008, he came 36th overall and 7th young rider in the 2009 Giro. And he's proven that he can time trial, coming second in the British National TT championships in 2010 as well as 5th in the TT at the Commonwealth Games, and a 9th in the Tour of Switzerland TT this year and has also had top 15s in tough stage races such as Vuelta a Castilla y León and the tour of Romandy. So there was talent there from a young age, and he's still not an old rider so maybe he's coming into his prime with the help of Team Sky?

Ryan

Oh, so he finished in the top40 of a Giro before? That's great, now we all know how can he go like this for 2 weeks. Cobo's track record easily beats Froome's track record, even if you calculate the age difference.

 

[GJB123]

Wow, didn't read so many stupid things in one comment for a longtime. Must be a Froome fanboy. Could be hard for you, throwing dirt on the leader of the race when your guy is the dirtiest of all for sure.

Just humour us and tell me what exactly it is that is completely stupid. Teach us, oh thy great master, and make us worthy of thy wisdom.

Regards
GJ

 

[Shark attack]

Also Froome generated a very good power:
430W with 6.1W/KG...

In the stage of the Alpe d'Huez 2011:
S. Sanchez 5.7 W/KG

Basso climbed the 10.1km to the summit of Monte Zoncolan in a time of 40:45 and he put out an average of 395 watts on the climb with 5.6W/KG...

 

[luckyboy]

As for Cobo’s Time Trial being “overperforming”, that wasn’t my word, it was the opinion of a TV commentator. Most of the examples given rebutting this relate to Time Trials roughly half the distance of the one we had in the Vuelta.

All of those examples prove that he can do a decent time trial. There are a few examples from the 2007 Tour where he placed 15th over 54km and 31st over 56km.

I've replied to your points about Froome in the Sky thread.

 

[webvan]

I think this counts as 'telling it like it is' in pro-cycling

"Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-endures-angliru-disappointment

Good catch, and the CN writer made it totally clear for the very young or very naive : " On that occasion, Cobo finished in second place, just behind Saunier Duval teammate Leonardo Piepoli, who subsequently tested positive for CERA."

 

[Scirea]

Just humour us and tell me what exactly it is that is completely stupid. Teach us, oh thy great master, and make us worthy of thy wisdom.

Regards
GJ

Other guys did that before i got here. But here is a couple for you:

Cobo's ITT: obviously moronic, pointed out before me. (What if the commentators said that? My mom once said that santa exists.)

"- back to back attacks on consecutive stages pulling away from the entire peloton at full tilt (i.e. establishing he is the strongest rider bar none on both days, including yesterday, a net gain on Wiggins & Froome despite them taking turns to chase him down in the last few kilometres on a relatively modest gradient of 7-9% that suited the Sky pair better.

- his physical appearance in both attacks gave minimal indication of any physical exertion and, much more importantly, this was corroborated by no discernable loss of speed due to fatigue at any point. "

Totally idiotic again. For example, Cobo lost time to Froome and Wiggins in the last km on Saturday. And he beat Froome like 8 seconds in the last couple of km on Sunday.


"- has performed for a team that was so blighted by doping in the 2008 Tour, that it was withdrawn

- on said tour, was the only human being capable of staying with a clearly doping Piepolli in one of the most notoriously farcical finishes in modern times."

What does it have to do with 2011 results?


"- on leaving his team he goes from a Top 10 Vuelta finisher in 2009 to a complete nobody in 2010, then goes to GT heir apparent in 2011 when reunited with his old buddies apparently connected to the 2008 'glory' days."

So a Vuelta top10 guy returning to form after a year in hell is less believable than somebody who never finished in the top30 of a GT easily getting top3?


"- is performing in a Geox squad widely ridiculed for its lack of tactical nous and pre-race preparation – despite the team shortcomings he excels nonetheless."

Again, made me laugh. I think my grandma could have made up the tactics for this Geox squad in this Vuelta and they would have success, either with Cobo or Menchov.

 

[webvan]

In other news, in honour of Cobo's epic victory on the Angliru in Stage 15 of the Vuelta, the UCI are recalibrating their 'index of suspicion':

Nice, they're probably checking their files for missed tests too...oh, wait they don't do them anymore because the ongoing passport cases have left them strapped for cash, you can count on Gianetti for making the most of that info and than some...

 

[Parrot23]

Nibali's comment about when Cobo last rode like this is pretty damning, to say the least.

On the other side of the ledger, isn't 40 seconds of Cobo's total lead made up of time bonuses? (The Sky pair have had none, if I recall correctly.)

The "real" difference in elapsed time is small (6 secs over Wiggins, and 20 secs behind Froome in "real" time).

 

[mc_mountain]

Nibali's comment about when Cobo last rode like this is pretty damning, to say the least.

On the other side of the ledger, isn't 40 seconds of Cobo's total lead made up of time bonuses? (The Sky pair have had none, if I recall correctly.)

The "real" difference in elapsed time is small (6 secs over Wiggins, and 20 secs behind Froome in "real" time).

the 6 secs is also the same as cobo gained by being ahead of one of the splits on the unoffical TTT stage sagan won.

 

[Ryan.Welwyn]

Oh, so he finished in the top40 of a Giro before? That's great, now we all know how can he go like this for 2 weeks. Cobo's track record easily beats Froome's track record, even if you calculate the age difference.

I know what you're thinking but the teams that Froome was in pre 2010 season do not really compare to Team Sky. He had shown potential from a young age that he was a promising climber and Time Trialist and came to Europe of that basis. Team Sky have obviously found a way of coaching/training that suits him very well and combining that with his age (coming right into what should be the early years of his prime) have obviously turned out well. And as for those talking about Team Sky Doping in a secretive way I'd say you're also likely to be very wrong. There is so much riding on the performance of Team Sky regarding funding for British Cycling, if there is one slip up with doping in Team Sky it could cast doubt across the whole GB team. Even though the funding is based entirely on Olympic medal tallies this would surely have an effect on it all, especially if the GB team aren't so successful at London 2012. Brailsford is a smart guy, he certainly wouldn't risk what some of you are suggesting they could be risking.

 

[Scirea]

And as for those talking about Team Sky Doping in a secretive way I'd say you're also likely to be very wrong. There is so much riding on the performance of Team Sky regarding funding for British Cycling, if there is one slip up with doping in Team Sky it could cast doubt across the whole GB team. Even though the funding is based entirely on Olympic medal tallies this would surely have an effect on it all, especially if the GB team aren't so successful at London 2012. Brailsford is a smart guy, he certainly wouldn't risk what some of you are suggesting they could be risking.

That's very true, that's why no Sky rider will fail a dope test anytime soon. And it's not the same as if they wouldn't dope...

 

[Winterfold]

I would much rather have DB looking out for me than Mauro.

At least with the way the stages are organised we'll should know who's won before Madrid

 

[la.margna]

as full as froome, wiggo, dopador or voeckler

 

[spalco]

That's very true, that's why no Sky rider will fail a dope test anytime soon. And it's not the same as if they wouldn't dope...

Yeah, I was going to say something similar. True, having a positive could be a catastrophe for Sky, but not getting results would lead down the same road in the long run; so I would be more shocked at one of them getting caught than if it got revealed that they have a "program" running.

 

[Ferminal]

I know what you're thinking but the teams that Froome was in pre 2010 season do not really compare to Team Sky.

What was wrong with the Barloworld setup?

 

[Benotti69]

What was wrong with the Barloworld setup?

Moises Duenas Nevado, who has been excluded from the 2008 Tour, tested positive for blood-booster EPO after stage four.

 

[luckyboy]

That paragon of clean cycling Claudio Corti was Barloworld's boss.

 

[Ferminal]

Moises Duenas Nevado, who has been excluded from the 2008 Tour, tested positive for blood-booster EPO after stage four.

Not that kind of wrong

They may not have had Jaguars, the biggest bus, or an Adidas sponsorship, but I'd hardly say that they didn't know how to manage a team or younger riders - Soler, Froome, Augustyn etc.

 

[Swede1]

Ok so Cobo was at 6.2 w/kg? Wasn't Horner at about 6.7 w/kg at california. Andy schleck was 6.23 w/kg also at california. Contador at the Giro, taking into consideration altitude and weather conditions climbed grossglockner at about 6.7 w/kg also. Cobo's ride was nothing too fantastic.

Source: 53x12

 

[spalco]

Source: 53x12

And who could be more credible, right?

 

[hrotha]

Ok so Cobo was at 6.2 w/kg? Wasn't Horner at about 6.7 w/kg at california. Andy schleck was 6.23 w/kg also at california. Contador at the Giro, taking into consideration altitude and weather conditions climbed grossglockner at about 6.7 w/kg also. Cobo's ride was nothing too fantastic.

Source: 53x12

Cobo's effort was a lot longer than Horner's. Dunno about Contador's.

 

[Shardi]

The only thing I could think of when Cobo rolled through the last 6km where:

- Looks very similar to Lance Armstrong..


Take a look at his character while biking.. He looks like a puncheur with those relatively massive ties n calves, not looking like a guy who can spin that high cadence with such pedalforce for an extended period of time on that 20% gradient.

He looks more like a guy who would mash his way with a much too heavy gear.

With the background and achievements in recent years... Yeh looks abit Fishy..

 

[Swede1]

And who could be more credible, right?

Uhh im pretty sure he is one of the smartest doctors around. He knows his stuff. Thats why so many riders liked him...

Hrotha you are right its hard to compare because of the different distances. I'm just trying to say there are plenty of riders more suspicious (or at least equally) than Cobo. Gilbert wins everything also at about 8.6 w/kg... also much shorter distances though. but still