Contador 2008 vs Froome 2016, who had the better year

[Miburo]

Contador was preparing for the dauphine in the hope that ASO would have changed their mind which i think was very likely.

 

[roundabout]

Re:

Wasn't the story that Astana got a last minute invitation to the Giro? Why should he have prepared for it?

I remember rumors that the Giro organizers might reconsider the non-selection already in March.

I would say that there probably were negotiations going on at the time.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Peter Sagan vs. Mark Cavendish. Who has the best palmare

If I were to play your game re 08 Vuelta

Leipheimer - would have won on a different team

Sastre - riding the double

Gesink - second year pro riding his first GT

Rodriguez - his best GT GC result was 17th before the Vuelta

Valverde - was doing Valverde things

I don't have a dog in this race, but Leipheimer was effectively riding against Contador in that race. He specifically said so.

Which is why he finished within 1 min

I rewatched Angliru and Fuentes de Invierno yesterday and there is nothing to suggest that he was riding against Contador in those stages, "effectively" or otherwise.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

In 2008 we weren't quite familiar with Contador's liberality with the truth yet, so the whole "winning the Giro straight from the beach" thing still has some traction among many people.

You think that that was contador's real climbing? The one week beach thing, fair enough but he wasn't fully prepared.

I think that was close to Contador's real climbing back in 2008, yes. Not 100%, but not that far off. The Vuelta (which he had ample time to prepare for) doesn't suggest otherwise to me.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

In 2008 we weren't quite familiar with Contador's liberality with the truth yet, so the whole "winning the Giro straight from the beach" thing still has some traction among many people.

You think that that was contador's real climbing? The one week beach thing, fair enough but he wasn't fully prepared.

I think that was close to Contador's real climbing back in 2008, yes. Not 100%, but not that far off. The Vuelta (which he had ample time to prepare for) doesn't suggest otherwise to me.

Thats a good point.

He was very good on Angliru tho and without remembering that Vuelta that well, I think that was the only very steep MTF. The others very kinda shallow as far as I remember.

 

[Miburo]

I don't think it's a good point since it's hard to reach your top shape again at the vuelta once you've done the giro.

And before the giro of that year, nothing seems to suggest that Contador wasn't the best climber that year and the vuelta had terrible MTF's.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

I don't think it's a good point since it's hard to reach your top shape again at the vuelta once you've done the giro.

And before the giro of that year, nothing seems to suggest that Contador wasn't the best climber that year and the vuelta had terrible MTF's.

Giro-Vuelta is the easiest double to do. Chaves, Aru and Nibali has had big success doing both races. I don't really think its that good of an excuse.

Agree on the last part.

 

[Arredondo]

Although Contador was strong in the Vuelta that year, he still would have lost La Vuelta without the boni's to Leipheimer. I mean, if you look at the competion in that Vuelta, you had Leipheimer (teammate), Sastre (quite tired after winning the Tour), Mosquera (good rider but not top quality), Valverde and Purito (luitenant of Bala). That's not comparable to a Tour, despite the fact Contador crashed out this year and Nibbles didn't rode for GC.

His Giro-victory was more impressive given the fact he came there below par and without the proper amount of training.

So i would say, in terms of pure racing: Froome. But in terms of results: Contador.

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

I don't think it's a good point since it's hard to reach your top shape again at the vuelta once you've done the giro.

And before the giro of that year, nothing seems to suggest that Contador wasn't the best climber that year and the vuelta had terrible MTF's.

Giro-Vuelta is the easiest double to do. Chaves, Aru and Nibali has had big success doing both races. I don't really think its that good of an excuse.

Agree on the last part.

Nibali his form in 2013 wasn't even close to that of the giro. Same in 2011. Aru did great but his form in the giro wasn't superb.

 

[Netserk]

Re:

Although Contador was strong in the Vuelta that year, he still would have lost La Vuelta without the boni's to Leipheimer. I mean, if you look at the competion in that Vuelta, you had Leipheimer (teammate), Sastre (quite tired after winning the Tour), Mosquera (good rider but not top quality), Valverde and Purito (luitenant of Bala). That's not comparable to a Tour, despite the fact Contador crashed out this year and Nibbles didn't rode for GC.

His Giro-victory was more impressive given the fact he came there below par and without the proper amount of training.

So i would say, in terms of pure racing: Froome. But in terms of results: Contador.

You sure?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Although Contador was strong in the Vuelta that year, he still would have lost La Vuelta without the boni's to Leipheimer. I mean, if you look at the competion in that Vuelta, you had Leipheimer (teammate), Sastre (quite tired after winning the Tour), Mosquera (good rider but not top quality), Valverde and Purito (luitenant of Bala). That's not comparable to a Tour, despite the fact Contador crashed out this year and Nibbles didn't rode for GC.

His Giro-victory was more impressive given the fact he came there below par and without the proper amount of training.

So i would say, in terms of pure racing: Froome. But in terms of results: Contador.

Agree on all points.
Valverde lost valuable minutes as well, but he wouldn't have won anyways. Woulda podiumed tho. Leipheimer was his teammate and Antón? Might have been able to follow Contador on Angliru, who knows. Those types of climb were definitely his speciality. Sad that we never really got to see him.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

I don't think it's a good point since it's hard to reach your top shape again at the vuelta once you've done the giro.

And before the giro of that year, nothing seems to suggest that Contador wasn't the best climber that year and the vuelta had terrible MTF's.

Giro-Vuelta is the easiest double to do. Chaves, Aru and Nibali has had big success doing both races. I don't really think its that good of an excuse.

Agree on the last part.

Nibali his form in 2013 wasn't even close to that of the giro. Same in 2011. Aru did great but his form in the giro wasn't superb.

You also have to look at the amount of races you do before a Giro or Vuelta, and how many races you target for a good result/the victory. Look at Purito's season in 2012. Because he was already good in Tirreno, he wasn't 100% anymore in the Giro. Good enough to hold his form over the three weeks, but not enough anymore to build for a peak in the third week.

Before La Vuelta however, he had a good amount of rest and he could specifically target that race, meaning he was fresh during that race and still very good in the third week (he dropped Contador on Bola del Mundo).

It's definitely possible to be as good in the Giro as in the Vuelta. But in order to do that, you need to do everything to be as fresh as possible at the start of those races. But it's maybe easier to do that for La Vuelta, because you also have important races in the spring like Tirreno, Pais Vasco and the classics.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

Although Contador was strong in the Vuelta that year, he still would have lost La Vuelta without the boni's to Leipheimer. I mean, if you look at the competion in that Vuelta, you had Leipheimer (teammate), Sastre (quite tired after winning the Tour), Mosquera (good rider but not top quality), Valverde and Purito (luitenant of Bala). That's not comparable to a Tour, despite the fact Contador crashed out this year and Nibbles didn't rode for GC.

His Giro-victory was more impressive given the fact he came there below par and without the proper amount of training.

So i would say, in terms of pure racing: Froome. But in terms of results: Contador.

You sure?

Yes. I heard that multiple times over the years however.

 

[Netserk]

Should be easy then for you to show where Contador got more than 46 bonus seconds more than Leipheimer (I mean, Leipheimer will lose his as well, no?).

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

Although Contador was strong in the Vuelta that year, he still would have lost La Vuelta without the boni's to Leipheimer. I mean, if you look at the competion in that Vuelta, you had Leipheimer (teammate), Sastre (quite tired after winning the Tour), Mosquera (good rider but not top quality), Valverde and Purito (luitenant of Bala). That's not comparable to a Tour, despite the fact Contador crashed out this year and Nibbles didn't rode for GC.

His Giro-victory was more impressive given the fact he came there below par and without the proper amount of training.

So i would say, in terms of pure racing: Froome. But in terms of results: Contador.

Agree on all points.
Valverde lost valuable minutes as well, but he wouldn't have won anyways. Woulda podiumed tho. Leipheimer was his teammate and Antón? Might have been able to follow Contador on Angliru, who knows. Those types of climb were definitely his speciality. Sad that we never really got to see him.

Sure, but losing time is the essential part of a GT. I remember that day to Suances. Rainy. Cold. And Bala lost 3 minutes there because he was too far back after a descent, but also because he suffered that day.

 

[Arredondo]

Re:

Should be easy then for you to show where Contador got more than 46 bonus seconds more than Leipheimer (I mean, Leipheimer will lose his as well, no?).

http://archivo.marca.com/edicion/marca/ciclismo/vuelta/2008/es/desarrollo/1167127.html

Ok, it would have been equal. But still

 

[Netserk]

Contador would have won anyway. Bonus seconds did not decide the race.

 

[deValtos]

I've seen that race as Levis stolen GT since 2008. The one time I've felt bad for him. :lol:

Probably scarred him for the rest of his career into never attacking. :surprised:

 

[Arredondo]

Re:

Contador would have won anyway. Bonus seconds did not decide the race.

But it shows the difference in strenght between Contador and Leipheimer wasn't that big. Don't forget Leipheimer upped the pace the first km's on the Angliru for Berto and still was able to finish 4th just a couple of seconds shy of Purito's 3rd place on the day.

 

[Red Rick]

I think Leipheimer's level of 2007 and 2008 is underrated. Meanwhile, that Vuelta parcours was decidedly favourable for the TT'ists. 3 out of 4 mountain finishes suited TT'ers, other mountain stages were non-existent, there was a long flat TT in the first week, and the deciding stage was a TT that was equal parts false flat and dragging climb.

If were gonna do what if's, then what if that parcours had been more like the Vuelta's of the last 5 years?

 

[roundabout]

I could be reading you wrong, but are you suggesting that an ITT where the winner averaged 31 km/h suited Leipheimer more than Contador?

 

[Red Rick]

I could be reading you wrong, but are you suggesting that an ITT where the winner averaged 31 km/h suited Leipheimer more than Contador?

I'm suggesting that Vuelta suited TT'ing GC men a lot better than the pure climbers, and that the latter group had little terrain to work with.