38 seconds were needed by Nibali to have a better season than both these in 2013. Didn't happen so I go with Contador, a double is a double.
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Sastre climbed Alpe d'Huez in 39'30" without a mountain train. Attacked almost from the very bottom.El Pistolero said:hazaran said:Climbing performances in the Giro are always well below the Tour, it's very clear that Tour >>> Giro.
Not during 2008, trust me. Contador would have wiped the floor with the likes of Carlos Sastre and Frank Schleck.
PremierAndrew said:TTTs should still count towards the stage win count in the OP, js
gregrowlerson said:Interesting thread.
For starters I think that it is too easy to 'just' simplify matters by someone won this, and someone didn't win that. Surely the way in which they won (or didn't win) matters also, taking into account all circumstances.
To say that one will be automatically remembered more because they won (or because they won more) is often true, though not always. Look at the current NBA team the Golden State Warriors, of course most currently famous for failing, if you consider the '96 Bulls motto of "It don't mean a thing without the ring" to be 100% truth.
There is a lot of truth to it. But not total.
Those Warriors have won 'only' one championship in this era, but I guarantee that even if they win no more, that this team will be remembered more than the '94/95 Rockets, or the 89/90 Pistons; teams that won the championship twice.
73 wins - whilst basically ushering in a new style of play - does mean something.
Froome didn't transcend cycling with what he did in this years Vuelta (and his and his teams style are often compared to another from a previous era), but it is still to say that a first isn't just a first, and a second isn't just a second. Not always.
According to one poster Contador "easily" had the better season. Why? Because Froome didn't win the Vuelta? He lost the Vuelta because of a brief lapse in concentration and/or because his team were rubbish when he needed them most. Oh, and because there wasn't a lot of time trialling. Check out the parcours of the '08 Giro. Plenty of mountains yes, but a lot of time trialling. A proper amount of time trialling. That is the reason (along with smart tactical riding of not being aggressive early on as he worked his way into form) that Contador won the 2008 Giro, and Froome would have almost certainly won the 2016 Vuelta if he'd been blessed with a similar parcours.
Having said that, I am not really sure who had the better season; but I think that it's super close either way. Pais Vasco trumps DL to me, at least enough to cancel out the 3rd vs. 4th in the OTT. But the grand tour results are really line-ball.
I'm not even sure if these are these riders best seasons (although the OP isn't declaring them to be so either). One poster mentioned Froome's 2013, and as far as Contador goes, we have his peak powers of 2009 and 2011, plus 2014, which is my favourite season of his, for its variety of consistence of excellence, as well as for its achievement in a colossal backs to the wall scenario.
Does a win in T-A and second places in Catalunya and DL beat a Giro? In name/s, probably not. But look at the way in which Contador won that T-A (now that riding on the queen stage against Quintana was more impressive than any of Froome's riding in this Vuelta ), and his second place in the Dauphne was really more like a win; just like Froome in this Vuelta, he was the strongest rider in the race, but lost out due to a weak team/poor tactics (depending on who you like I guess). And the 2014 Vuelta clearly beats the 2008 Vuelta. Broken (or at least fractured) leg vs. beach vacation; both of which may have been embellished slightly, but still, that 2014 Vuelta victory was INCREDIBLE. It was more than just A Vuelta victory. Rather off topic, but I'd rate Contador's 2014 season as his best. But that is also on topic, because we are discussing the reasons of what - we think - makes a great cycling season.
But why are we all avoiding the elephant in the room?
Who is the better rider in echelons: Contador or Froome?
gregrowlerson said:According to one poster Contador "easily" had the better season. Why? Because Froome didn't win the Vuelta? He lost the Vuelta because of a brief lapse in concentration and/or because his team were rubbish when he needed them most.
roundabout said:If I were to play your game re 08 Vuelta
Leipheimer - would have won on a different team
Sastre - riding the double
Gesink - second year pro riding his first GT
Rodriguez - his best GT GC result was 17th before the Vuelta
Valverde - was doing Valverde things
Climeon said:In terms of the rarity of the Giro-Vuelta double, it does strike me that for most of recent history, the top top riders (be it armstrong, Ullrich, Froome, Quintana bar one season in which he did Giro-Vuelta and a crash may have prevented the double) have overwhelmingly chosen to rise the tour over the giro. Of course then doing the Giro-Vuelta double is rarer, due to the sheer fact that the riders most capable of doing it have chosen not to do it.
On a more general point, it's clearly a subjective question. Personally, despite generally enjoying the Giro most of the three GT's, I feel the greater attention, prestige and (lets face it, competition) of the tour is such that merely winning it is not far off doing the Giro-Vuelta double (and to the lay man it is certainly better), which leads me to prefer Froome's season once you factor in the Vuelta.
Not really. I just expressed the mood of the thread in an ironic way. AC should be a king. Froome should suck. That's the way thinking a lot of people stick to. It might be rude or but that's true. had AC won the Tour and end up the vuelta in second place, it would regarded like almost a feat but since it was froome, this detail turns assessment upside down. i'd call it a legalized hypocrisy.Angliru said:Hugo Koblet said:What?dacooley said:Bertie 2008.as he is a people champion while froome is a disgrace of the sport
Miburo said:Contador won the giro with no prep. If he had prep he would have destroyed the field
hrotha said:In 2008 we weren't quite familiar with Contador's liberality with the truth yet, so the whole "winning the Giro straight from the beach" thing still has some traction among many people.
Miburo said:hrotha said:In 2008 we weren't quite familiar with Contador's liberality with the truth yet, so the whole "winning the Giro straight from the beach" thing still has some traction among many people.
You think that that was contador's real climbing? The one week beach thing, fair enough but he wasn't fully prepared.
Didn't remember that bit. Though that Giro was confirmed and it was the Tour in balance.LaFlorecita said:Wasn't the story that Astana got a last minute invitation to the Giro? Why should he have prepared for it?