Contador 2010

[Publicus]

Contrary to popular opinion, this doesn't sound like someone who feels like he was conspired against.

Maybe it's because they were, and it was clear to all the internet cranks here that they were, and he just didn't notice.

Or it is simply that he, unlike Bruyneel and Armstrong, decided to focus on the now instead of leveraging the past to create conflict.

Not sure why you take such pleasure in trying to unnecessarily provoke folks on the forum. You could have certainly pressed your point/opinion without denigrating folks that don't necessarily share your view of the Astana 2009 situation.

 

[Publicus]

I'm not trying to claim that a couple of hours of reading Wikipedia and other net sources make me capable of making a real legal argument with an actual practicing attorney and I really do appreciate your time on this.

So, I'll just argue my opinion as a layman.

Again, I figure both sides had proper legal representation and the fact that no suits were filed has nothing to do with the fact that they couldn't use US courts. I figure Johann knew he could part ways with KCF because a) he was being told he had defenses from any suit from KCF and/or b) he was being told he had cause to file suites of his own. So an agreement is reached by both sides not to engage in a legal battle. It would seem to me that it's KCF that was in the weak position as Johann is the one that appears to be breaching his contracts by walking away. Why not sue? Astana was losing everything, the equipment, all but one good rider. They've had to start over from scratch. They certainly didn't not sue because their just a bunch of nice guys. If it wasn't the non payment issue there was something else. It's like Johann knew where the bodies were buried. There's a story here that nobody has written unless I missed it.

Can anybody out there figure out the rider contract issue with Olympus SARL? Both regarding riders leaving Astana and that seemingly bizarre story of Dec 2nd saying Oscar's contract to ride for Astana is with Olympus SARL?
That seems to be saying that KCF is still just taking sponsors money and paying it to Johann's company, to pay Oscar. What about the other riders including Alberto. (I've also been trying to find out if Alberto's contract is for more than just this year)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pereiros-contract-with-astana-in-doubt

Moose made the point if these actions had taken place in the US, there would have been a lawsuit. Given that these actions to place in France, the contracts are probably based on Belgium law and/or Kazakhstan law, it is impossible to say what causes of actions could be maintained under those various countries laws. I do not pretend to have working knowledge of the laws of those countries and will refrain from commentating further on whether a suit could be maintained.

From a purely layman's point of view, I don't think one needs to think through the legal claims to understand why the parties chose a negotiated settlement and why things broke down the way they did. KCF only had interest in two groups: (1) the Kazakh's and (2) Alberto and his closest lieutenants (Navarro, Hernandez and Noval). I think both parties ended up with everything they wanted, though I think Bruyneel was in the cat bird seat in terms of his ability to hurt Astana's efforts to regroup ahead of the 2010 season. Had they come to a more timely settlement, I think Astana would not have had some of the logistical problems that have been noted (Pisa and TDU), but I judging from the comments coming out of the Astana camp the group has gelled well in spite of those challenges.

 

[Publicus]

Another AC interview in MARCA today.

http://www.marca.com/2010/01/28/ciclismo/1264702758.html

Google Translate does a horrible job, but it does pick up some good comments:

"The fact that Bruyneel knows him very well, as they have worked together for three years," gives it an advantage? Or is offset because you also know, or know them very well?

I think that is compensated. And even say that I have a bit of an advantage because I fortunately have not had too many bad days, while I know perfectly how they have or have used the moments of weakness of other runners and teams and how we tried to bring them into trouble. On aggregate, probably, I will gain. I feel privileged because I have learned a lot over the three years I've been with Johan.

"Her and former director also said in these pages that it is absurd to think that from within one team was favored over others, that what I had was for all alike.

There were difficult times during the season, especially during the Tour, where at some stages I would have concerned another pace to get more differences. But the end result was good and I'll take that.

-And, as team leader, had no chance to say "this is not the tactic that most interests me?

No, was the director Johan Bruyneel and he made the decisions. He raised the tactic and I adapted to it as possible.

-Armstrong and Contador had the same material at his disposal?

Yes, generally speaking yes, but with the connotation of the wheels, a topic that I do not want to give more laps. Johan knows how it was and I think no need to explain.

-"But he said that Trek gave the same wheels.

Johan knows the truth.

 

[Carboncrank]

Or it is simply that he, unlike Bruyneel and Armstrong, decided to focus on the now instead of leveraging the past to create conflict.

Not sure why you take such pleasure in trying to unnecessarily provoke folks on the forum. You could have certainly pressed your point/opinion without denigrating folks that don't necessarily share your view of the Astana 2009 situation.

I'll take a direct quote over here's what you think he probably really meant any day.

You've just given me another example of why I call people here "internet cranks"
You can't even read a direct quote from somebody without trying to spin it into what you want it to mean to fit your presupposed notions of Lance and Johnann's evil plots.

If he didn't mean exactly what he said, he could have answered it a dozen different ways.

He know they did NOT conspire against him, and that it would be stupid and dangerous to do so.

He won the frinkin' race. Lance didn't. Why can't that be enough?

BTW. I hardly think "internet cranks" rises to nearly the level of insult I've had to endure here. You evidently haven't seen auscyclefan94's latest. It's not even in response to a post. It's evidently just because he thinks it's fun and he gets great feedback here acting like a child. It's precisely why I talk about a "stupid infantile" list.

 

[Carboncrank]

Moose made the point if these actions had taken place in the US, there would have been a lawsuit. Given that these actions to place in France, the contracts are probably based on Belgium law and/or Kazakhstan law, it is impossible to say what causes of actions could be maintained under those various countries laws. I do not pretend to have working knowledge of the laws of those countries and will refrain from commentating further on whether a suit could be maintained.

From a purely layman's point of view, I don't think one needs to think through the legal claims to understand why the parties chose a negotiated settlement and why things broke down the way they did. KCF only had interest in two groups: (1) the Kazakh's and (2) Alberto and his closest lieutenants (Navarro, Hernandez and Noval). I think both parties ended up with everything they wanted, though I think Bruyneel was in the cat bird seat in terms of his ability to hurt Astana's efforts to regroup ahead of the 2010 season. Had they come to a more timely settlement, I think Astana would not have had some of the logistical problems that have been noted (Pisa and TDU), but I judging from the comments coming out of the Astana camp the group has gelled well in spite of those challenges.

Seriously? You're a lawyer and you don't think it came down to legal claims? In business it's always about legal claims. That's why they have contracts and lawyers.

Astana ended up with Alberto, and a few water carriers.

I know a guy who could have installed radios in all their cars in a single day.

Get serious. They got squat.

Oh , and moose said they'd have sued Radio Shack.

 

[BroDeal]

I'll take a direct quote over here's what you think he probably really meant any day.

You've just given me another example of why I call people here "internet cranks"
You can't even read a direct quote from somebody without trying to spin it into what you want it to mean to fit your presupposed notions of Lance and Johnann's evil plots.

If he didn't mean exactly what he said, he could have answered it a dozen different ways.

He know they did NOT conspire against him, and that it would be stupid and dangerous to do so.

He won the frinkin' race. Lance didn't. Why can't that be enough?

BTW. I hardly think "internet cranks" rises to nearly the level of insult I've had to endure here. You evidently haven't seen auscyclefan94's latest. It's not even in response to a post. It's evidently just because he thinks it's fun and he gets great feedback here acting like a child. It's precisely why I talk about a "stupid infantile" list.

ROTFL. Carboncrank criticizing people on the Internet for being cranks. That's a good one. Next up, George Bush criticizes torture.

 

[Carboncrank]

ROTFL. Carboncrank criticizing people on the Internet for being cranks. That's a good one. Next up, George Bush criticizes torture.

No, actually I was paraphrasing something I once heard Mark Cavendish say.

You know who that is don't you?

 

[Polish]

Going back to the original question of this thread:

"Anyone see any struggles from Contador leaving the Bruyneel camp? "

The latest interview with Alberto gives evidence of the Tactical Genius of Bruyneel...and yes, Alberto will be struggling without it this year

-And, as team leader, had no chance to say "this is not the tactic that most interests me?

No, was the director Johan Bruyneel and he made the decisions. He raised the tactic and I adapted to it as possible.

Those Tactics put TWO riders on the Podium. TWO. Genius to be missed.

or how about:

Johan knows the truth.

Of course Johan knows the Truth.
You do not become a Tactical Genius if you do not know the truth!

Bottom Line - Yes, AC will struggle big time without Johan

 

[BroDeal]

Bottom Line - Yes, AC will struggle big time without Johan

Nope. Contador implies that Bruyneel was holding him back. This year we will get to see Contador's true strength.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Going back to the original question of this thread:

"Anyone see any struggles from Contador leaving the Bruyneel camp? "

The latest interview with Alberto gives evidence of the Tactical Genius of Bruyneel...and yes, Alberto will be struggling without it this year



Those Tactics put TWO riders on the Podium. TWO. Genius to be missed.

or how about:



Of course Johan knows the Truth.
You do not become a Tactical Genius if you do not know the truth!

Bottom Line - Yes, AC will struggle big time without Johan

Do you really even believe half the nonsense you spew?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

An interesting insight in to Contador from Yuriy Kulishkin the Astana team soigneur.

 

[Ad Rock]

Although I think UCI regulations are a bit arbitary, I wouldn't have thought they'd allow nose cones like on the Shiv either. Maybe wrong forum, sorry.

Its not considered a fairing if its structural...and in this case ts structural because it houses the front brake!...therefore its legal!

 

[Race Radio]

Going back to the original question of this thread:

"Anyone see any struggles from Contador leaving the Bruyneel camp? "

The latest interview with Alberto gives evidence of the Tactical Genius of Bruyneel...and yes, Alberto will be struggling without it this year



Those Tactics put TWO riders on the Podium. TWO. Genius to be missed.

or how about:



Of course Johan knows the Truth.
You do not become a Tactical Genius if you do not know the truth!

Bottom Line - Yes, AC will struggle big time without Johan

He basically says that The Hog would draw up some tactics but he would do what he wanted. He then calls The Hog a liar.

You wonder why he did not pay attention to him?

 

[Polish]

He basically says that The Hog would draw up some tactics but he would do what he wanted. He then calls The Hog a liar.

You wonder why he did not pay attention to him?

Part of Bruyneel's Genius is knowing when to use Reverse-Psychology.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Part of Bruyneel's Genius is knowing when to use Reverse-Psychology.

Oh pleez..........

 

[Publicus]

I'll take a direct quote over here's what you think he probably really meant any day.

You've just given me another example of why I call people here "internet cranks"
You can't even read a direct quote from somebody without trying to spin it into what you want it to mean to fit your presupposed notions of Lance and Johnann's evil plots.

If he didn't mean exactly what he said, he could have answered it a dozen different ways.

He know they did NOT conspire against him, and that it would be stupid and dangerous to do so.

He won the frinkin' race. Lance didn't. Why can't that be enough?

BTW. I hardly think "internet cranks" rises to nearly the level of insult I've had to endure here. You evidently haven't seen auscyclefan94's latest. It's not even in response to a post. It's evidently just because he thinks it's fun and he gets great feedback here acting like a child. It's precisely why I talk about a "stupid infantile" list.

I offered commentary on your interpetation of what he was saying. But more to the point, my opinion was based on the full context of his interview and previous interviews. So when he says that (I'm paraphrasing here, the quote is above) Johan knows the truth and he stands by his story, that means Johan is lying (same is true for Armstrong). What he was being is diplomatic (look it up if you are unfamiliar with the term). The fact that you read the snippets and find support for your conclusion is beyond me, but you've demonstrated on countless occasions that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

 

[Publicus]

Seriously? You're a lawyer and you don't think it came down to legal claims? In business it's always about legal claims. That's why they have contracts and lawyers.

Astana ended up with Alberto, and a few water carriers.

I know a guy who could have installed radios in all their cars in a single day.

Get serious. They got squat.

Oh , and moose said they'd have sued Radio Shack.

The sentence that apparently caused you such consternation actually had an important qualifier that you seem to either ignore or not comprehend.

From a purely layman's point of view, I don't think one needs to think through the legal claims to understand why the parties chose a negotiated settlement and why things broke down the way they did.

With all appropriate deference, you are making a fool of yourself. Stop. Please.

 

[ravens]

I just want of those to put on a wall. It's beautiful (imo).

 

[Carboncrank]

Nope. Contador implies that Bruyneel was holding him back. This year we will get to see Contador's true strength.

There are times when Johann's job is holding someone back lest they expend too much in the wrong place and end up counter attacked.

You seem to be implying that he's already a good enough tactician to call his own race. Or is something about Giuseppe Martinelli that proves him more capable of seeing Contador's true strength than Johann who got him 4 Grand Tour wins?

I'd be willing to bet there were tours that Lance would not have won if he'd gone off on his own tactics. And I think he's a damn site smarter than Alberto.

Maybe Alberto is really that strong.

If so it would be more rare than just being champion.

I hate to bring it up but considering the awful things said on this forum about Lance and Johann, I think it's worth noting what I found when searching Martinelli's background.

Cyclingnews mentioned he has some Grand Tour wins. They failed to mention that Unlike Johann, he had a rider that failed a drug test and was thrown out of the Giro along with the whole team.

He apprears from his background to be competent but, he's no saint, no genius, and I wouldn't count on him to be Astana's savior. Alberto better really be that good.

 

[luckyboy]

I just want of those to put on a wall. It's beautiful (imo).

Cance or the bike?



As for how Contador will get along without the Hog, we'll all just have to wait and see. But the TdF will be won by either AC or Andy, and neither of those will be taking tactical advice from Bruyneel, so...

 

[zapata]

About holding him back: contador seemed to say in the interview that the hog posted that there was times during the tour de france when he wanted to speed up, wanted to attack downhill for example, but bruyneel denied him, for some reason. Personally I think, although contador appears to be the impulsive, attacking kind of rider, and maybe not always the wisest, that had he followed his own instincts, he would have won by a greater margin.

 

[BroDeal]

You seem to be implying that he's already a good enough tactician to call his own race. Or is something about Giuseppe Martinelli that proves him more capable of seeing Contador's true strength than Johann who got him 4 Grand Tour wins?

Bruyneel??. Bruyneel actively worked against Contador in last year's Tour. Bruyneel was not the DS at the 2008 Giro.

I hate to bring it up but considering the awful things said on this forum about Lance and Johann, I think it's worth noting what I found when searching Martinelli's background.

Cyclingnews mentioned he has some Grand Tour wins. They failed to mention that Unlike Johann, he had a rider that failed a drug test and was thrown out of the Giro along with the whole team.

He apprears from his background to be competent but, he's no saint, no genius, and I wouldn't count on him to be Astana's savior. Alberto better really be that good.

I don't recall Martinelli taking so much dope that his teammates nicknamed him "The Hog." And Bruyneel had people test positive. He just lies about it.

What us up with these teabaggers who use their idols' first names all the time. Johann? Are you on a first name basis with him?

 

[Carboncrank]

I offered commentary on your interpetation of what he was saying. But more to the point, my opinion was based on the full context of his interview and previous interviews. So when he says that (I'm paraphrasing here, the quote is above) Johan knows the truth and he stands by his story, that means Johan is lying (same is true for Armstrong). What he was being is diplomatic (look it up if you are unfamiliar with the term). The fact that you read the snippets and find support for your conclusion is beyond me, but you've demonstrated on countless occasions that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Putting words in someone's mouth is evidently your strong suit. devining what someone meant instead of what they said you evidently think is another. It serves your predisposed ideas to think he was being diplomatic instead of actually speaking the truth. I'm pointing out to you that your opionion based on the whole interview, which I read, and previous devined knowlege is wrong, in erro, incorrect based on the actual words of Aberto.

Since it apprers that you are the one with reading comprehension problems let me post it again

"Tactically, aside from strife while in close quarters, aren’t you going to miss Armstrong?

Maybe so, having Armstrong on the team gave us more strength, we controlled things better."

What part of that response is it that you don't comprehend?

There's nothing else in that interview with Alberto that gives the slightest credence to your notion, or any other interview I've ever read with Ablerto. Alberto would be source material. It would have credence if he claimed it. He does not. Never has. Just like no rider ever said Big George tipped Lance in stage 3. Not George, no other rider, not ever yet you probably think they all lie.

Just what is your evidence?

You imagine these things because you think Lance and Johan are evil. You have a right to not like them, it's your choice, but man, you must be one lousy lawyer if you go into your cases with your mind made up.

 

[taiwan]

Its not considered a fairing if its structural...and in this case ts structural because it houses the front brake!...therefore its legal!

Yeah, exploiting a loophole, methinks. Look, Felt, BMC TT bikes have more convincingly structural elements in that area, but I'm not convinced by the Giant bike or the Shiv. Could be wrong, but it doesn't look like the bikes would be rendered unrideable if you removed those elements. Also, that thing makes the profile of the headtube much narrower than 1:3, surely.

As for the real subject of this thread: without speculating on Bruyneel's possible puppet-mastery of half the peloton, I think Contador must have a harder race next year. Although he'll be the strongest rider, he'll have less support in those elite groups of climbers. Unless Oscar Pereiro has great form, he'll just have Vinokourov with him (I think Vinokourov will be able to hang out in these situations) and they could potentially have for company: 3 Radioshack, 2 Saxo Bank, 3 Liquigas, a Garmin, a Sky, a BMC, a Cervélo, a Rabobank... I'm maybe being optimistic about riders who could make those selections, but basically his "support" last year will be riding against him. Caisse D'Epargne wouldn't help him out, would they? Having said that, if he actually attacks he can take like minutes out of everyone but Andy Schleck, so he could be alright.

 

[Carboncrank]

Bruyneel??. Bruyneel actively worked against Contador in last year's Tour. Bruyneel was not the DS at the 2008 Giro.



I don't recall Martinelli taking so much dope that his teammates nicknamed him "The Hog." And Bruyneel had people test positive. He just lies about it.

What us up with these teabaggers who use their idols' first names all the time. Johann? Are you on a first name basis with him?

Well Bro, Where's your proof of working against. Answer? you don't need any. Just like your claim that Johann lies about drug tests despite the fact he even fired a rider over values alone and later had to pay all his back pay when the court of arbitration found against Astana. Turns out he was right about Gusev. Where's he riding now?

I'm not talking about insinuations. I'm talking about Martinelli having a real rider, not an imaginary one, fail a real drug test, not an imaginary one, and get his team kicked out of the Giro. The real Giro, not an imaginary one where all your dreams of Johann and Lance getting caught come true.