• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Contador sentences the Tour

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Jul 11, 2009
55
0
0
Visit site
Lance media spin again

Armstrong never once gave a rats *** about his doms and never pulled them along so they could try to podium with him. If they were there at the end, fine, but he never gave any gifts. Except one to Pantani.

So why the hell does everyone think that AC should be playing by different rules? :confused: Kloden wasn't doing any work on the last climb, he was last in the group pretty much the entire way. All the work was being done by the Schleckets, and if anything AC's big errror was not finishing off his attack and putting time on them. This race is not over until after Ventoux, and if AC has a bad day, he could easily lose 2-4 mins and lose the race. I don't blame him for being nervous at all, Ventoux is a killer and ANYTHING can happen on that day.

Oh AK could have gone for the stage win, a nice prize for working so hard for Alberto. Actually, no he wouldn't have gotten the stage win, he got dropped at the finish by VN and LA. AK bonked big time and would not have won, and it was actually fitting that Saxo won in honor of Voigt.
 
Jul 23, 2009
148
0
0
Visit site
This tactic is about Contador and no one else. It has nothing to do with what Lance has or hasn't done in the past. Cycling is a cerebral sport. Contador, like all bike racers, should always be doing a cost-benefit analysis of what he is doing on the bike. In this instance, he needs to assign a high probability to being able to distance the Schlecks, probably the best team tandem in the sport, despite a 15k downhill after the summit. Even if he had done that and won the stage, the tactic itself is questionable because of the team aspect. But he didn't even come close to doing that. Just remarkably poor decision-making, demonstrating high ego, low intelligence and poor analytical ability.
 
Jul 23, 2009
2
0
0
Visit site
LargusMeans said:
Armstrong never once gave a rats *** about his doms and never pulled them along so they could try to podium with him. If they were there at the end, fine, but he never gave any gifts. Except one to Pantani.

Rubbish. Lance was always more than happy for his team-mates successes unless it jepordised his challenge for the overall win. Case in point, the last time he beat Kloden. LA was trying to give the stage to Landis.

I'm no Lance fan, but the way he is dealing with riding this TdF, accepting the role as a helper rather than contender, sacrificing himself for AC, and then salvaging his own position, has been incredibly classy and a joy to watch.

In contrast Contador made a stupid mistake isolating himeself for no benefit. I think he realised what he'd done, probably b/c he had JB in his ear - which is why he was forlornly looking behind him for Kloden.
 
Jul 9, 2009
517
0
0
Visit site
the vagabond said:
OK, maybe he had a reason, but it doesn't wash. Cycling is a career, not a stage win. Eventually Contador will realize that. And if he was going for the stage win he failed, which in itself shows lack of leadership. He behaved like a nervous nellie, and he will regret what he did in the future. Anybody who is not a team player suffers in the future for it, even if there is discourse inside the team. Bad move.

come on man. you are exaggerating the importance of the attack (which i agree didn't turn out as he had expected..but still caused him no real harm)....'he will regret what he did in the future'...you meen after he wins this years TDF? and next years sign with a team where has a team working for him? :rolleyes:

i have to ask you...have you watched cycling races before? you do realize that if a team captain makes an attack that ends up hurting his domestiques its not something that is analyzed from a domestiques point of view. the ONLY thing that matters is if it ends up hurting the captain..which it didnt.
 
Jul 9, 2009
517
0
0
Visit site
stomper staines said:
Rubbish. Lance was always more than happy for his team-mates successes unless it jepordised his challenge for the overall win. Case in point, the last time he beat Kloden. LA was trying to give the stage to Landis.

I'm no Lance fan, but the way he is dealing with riding this TdF, accepting the role as a helper rather than contender, sacrificing himself for AC, and then salvaging his own position, has been incredibly classy and a joy to watch.

In contrast Contador made a stupid mistake isolating himeself for no benefit. I think he realised what he'd done, probably b/c he had JB in his ear - which is why he was forlornly looking behind him for Kloden.

you are holding contador to standards that havent been applied to other team captains. overanalyzing stuff way too much!

i can go back and look at every past champion..they all made mistakes...but they werent blasted for every single attack they made (successful or not). specially not when they managed to distance themselves from their rivals (wiggins and nibali in this case)

and once again: in the cases where there is something to analyze: you dont analyze it from a domestiques point of view!
 
Jul 22, 2009
41
0
0
Visit site
Futuroscope said:
you are holding contador to standards that havent been applied to other team captains. overanalyzing stuff way too much!

i can go back and look at every past champion..they all made mistakes...but they werent blasted for every single attack they made (successful or not). specially not when they managed to distance themselves from their rivals (wiggins and nibali in this case)

and once again: in the cases where there is something to analyze: you dont analyze it from a domestiques point of view!

Perhaps, but I imagine that if internet forums had existed in the Merckx and Hinault eras their race tactics would have spawned thousands of posts. :)
 
Apr 1, 2009
233
0
0
Visit site
stomper staines said:
Rubbish. Lance was always more than happy for his team-mates successes unless it jepordised his challenge for the overall win. Case in point, the last time he beat Kloden. LA was trying to give the stage to Landis.
In 7 victories, Armstrong did or at least tried to allow a teammate to win a stage TWICE. The Landis stage and the Hincapie stage.

stomper staines said:
I'm no Lance fan, but the way he is dealing with riding this TdF, accepting the role as a helper rather than contender, sacrificing himself for AC, and then salvaging his own position, has been incredibly classy and a joy to watch.
I think this is more to do with Armstrong realising that he can't beat Contador rather than being able to but sacrificing his own goals.
 
May 5, 2009
125
0
0
Visit site
LargusMeans said:
Armstrong never once gave a rats *** about his doms and never pulled them along so they could try to podium with him. If they were there at the end, fine, but he never gave any gifts. Except one to Pantani.

So why the hell does everyone think that AC should be playing by different rules? :confused:

QUOTE]

Because, this situation is different. Lance's teams were built with one goal, 8 guys sacrificing to get LA the win. Like it or hate it, that's how it was.

This team was never built that way. Contador doesn't need a team built that way. Given the competition, the course, etc. The fact is, 3 teammates were in the top 5 with 3 meaningful stages left. That means this situation is clearly different than anything LA ever had to deal with. It means that they are not just "domestiques" as everyone seems to be calling them. They are men who are capable of being on the podium.

So, ditching them for no sound tactical reason, when it accomplished nothing, is stupid, plain and simple. He hurt his teammates while at the same time adding nothing to his goal of winning the tour. He sits exactly where he sat yesterday, exactly the same time gaps, and has no stage win to show for it, but 2 teammates with diminished podium hopes.
 
Jul 23, 2009
2
0
0
Visit site
Futuroscope said:
you are holding contador to standards that havent been applied to other team captains. overanalyzing stuff way too much!

i can go back and look at every past champion..they all made mistakes...but they werent blasted for every single attack they made (successful or not). specially not when they managed to distance themselves from their rivals (wiggins and nibali in this case)

and once again: in the cases where there is something to analyze: you dont analyze it from a domestiques point of view!

I don't think I'm holding higher standards to AC than I would to anyone in his position. To be clear, it was a tactical error, not the end of the world.

I think why this is generating so much interest is because it highlights the cracks in Astana. AC clearly didn't want to follow JB's coaching. The thing is, he's not a cleaver as JB. Its almost a cliche really, young talent rebelling against older experiance. And I do think all of Astana, including LA are now working for him.

If and when they are on different teams, while I think AC will be a contender, I think he may discover how much help he is getting from the best team in the world and his DS.

Heaven help the TdF if AC does wise up (a bit like Lance did). We'll be seeing him in yellow in Paris for the next 10 years!
 
Jul 21, 2009
224
0
0
Visit site
colwildcat said:
This team was never built that way. Contador doesn't need a team built that way. Given the competition, the course, etc.


What??? What do you mean he doesn't need a team built that way? That AC prefers having 3 other guys in his team trying to screw with his goal of winning the Tour? Why don't you go and ask AC what he needs?

I tell you something he needed: Noval. He needed it and asked for it. And JB declined to include Noval because he didn't want to have a "divided team". Translation: he didn't want to give AC the help JB promised him when he declared publicly that AC would be THE team leader. JB preferred to have AC isolated in the team, at JB's and Lance's mercy.

But the road and alpine gradients are a bitch and so is pay back, so screw the Disney designed 3-way podium. WAR and put in as much time as possible to AK and LA.
 
May 13, 2009
653
0
0
Visit site
fulcrum said:
What???

But the road and alpine gradients are a bitch and so is pay back, so screw the Disney designed 3-way podium. WAR and put in as much time as possible to AK and LA.

If he wanted to put as much time into AK and LA, why did he ask AK and JB if he could attack?
 
May 5, 2009
125
0
0
Visit site
fulcrum said:
What??? What do you mean he doesn't need a team built that way? That AC prefers having 3 other guys in his team trying to screw with his goal of winning the Tour? Why don't you go and ask AC what he needs?

I tell you something he needed: Noval. He needed it and asked for it. And JB declined to include Noval because he didn't want to have a "divided team". Translation: he didn't want to give AC the help JB promised him when he declared publicly that AC would be THE team leader. JB preferred to have AC isolated in the team, at JB's and Lance's mercy.

But the road and alpine gradients are a bitch and so is pay back, so screw the Disney designed 3-way podium. WAR and put in as much time as possible to AK and LA.

Tell, me, honestly, in what way has anything so far screwed his chance of winning the tour, as he sits here with a multiple minute lead? What, their busting their a$$es in the TTT? Their sheltering him in the peloton and driving the pace the last few stages? What have they done, other than say that it would be decided on the road, which it clearly was?

My point was that they chose not to bring 8 guys whose sole purpose was delivering an AC win. Why? Because they had that kind of GC potential talent on the team, and given the competition, it has been proven that it was unnecessary and AC was always going to win this tour, regardless.

The fact that he has chosen to declare "war" as you put it, makes him come across as a d@uche bag. He just helped other teams put guys on the podium while kicking his own teammates off, for no apparent reason other than spite and hubris.
 
colwildcat said:
LargusMeans said:
Armstrong never once gave a rats *** about his doms and never pulled them along so they could try to podium with him. If they were there at the end, fine, but he never gave any gifts. Except one to Pantani.

So why the hell does everyone think that AC should be playing by different rules? :confused:

QUOTE]

Because, this situation is different. Lance's teams were built with one goal, 8 guys sacrificing to get LA the win. Like it or hate it, that's how it was.

This team was never built that way. Contador doesn't need a team built that way. Given the competition, the course, etc. The fact is, 3 teammates were in the top 5 with 3 meaningful stages left. That means this situation is clearly different than anything LA ever had to deal with. It means that they are not just "domestiques" as everyone seems to be calling them. They are men who are capable of being on the podium.

So, ditching them for no sound tactical reason, when it accomplished nothing, is stupid, plain and simple. He hurt his teammates while at the same time adding nothing to his goal of winning the tour. He sits exactly where he sat yesterday, exactly the same time gaps, and has no stage win to show for it, but 2 teammates with diminished podium hopes.

I've said it once i'll say it a hundred times, one finds really good excuses based on whether we like this rider and dislike this one, I see how funny it looks when in this thread I've seen many people for AC and others for LA, the funny thing is that both parties have the same fervour, the same logic, and the same good reasons, I for one did saw AC moving back and talking to Klodden, then attacking, and then I saw his halt when he saw Kloddy wasn't following, again that's the way I read it, is it because I like AC, and don't like LA? who knows
 
Jul 13, 2009
144
0
0
Visit site
colwildcat said:
Tell, me, honestly, in what way has anything so far screwed his chance of winning the tour, as he sits here with a multiple minute lead? What, their busting their a$$es in the TTT? Their sheltering him in the peloton and driving the pace the last few stages? What have they done, other than say that it would be decided on the road, which it clearly was?

My point was that they chose not to bring 8 guys whose sole purpose was delivering an AC win. Why? Because they had that kind of GC potential talent on the team, and given the competition, it has been proven that it was unnecessary and AC was always going to win this tour, regardless.

The fact that he has chosen to declare "war" as you put it, makes him come across as a d@uche bag. He just helped other teams put guys on the podium while kicking his own teammates off, for no apparent reason other than spite and hubris.

This is certainly how he comes across to me.
 
Jul 21, 2009
224
0
0
Visit site
colwildcat said:
The fact that he has chosen to declare "war" as you put it, makes him come across as a d@uche bag. He just helped other teams put guys on the podium while kicking his own teammates off, for no apparent reason other than spite and hubris.

2 things:

Putting minutes to his "teammates" is about to make him a winner, not a d@ouche bag. The d@ouche bag is whining on his twitter. Talking about how the team leader's decission might cost AK a podium when the twittist in question had no issue what so ever at Verbier with AK losing precious time not because AK couldn't go anymore but because AK was helping LA, a guy who was not suppose to be the team leader.

Those two "teammates" in particular had done nothing to help AC get the yellow. Except participate in the TTT, which was self serving anyway. Neither AK or LA have put any effort setting a tempo or leading Contador up the hill, a la Heras or Rubiera in the old times. Both AK and LA have been riding a two faced race claiming to be helping Contador but focusing exclusively in minimizing their loses.

As domestics, they should be putting it on the line for Contador until they can no longer keep up and then drop like hot potato. Hell will freeze before we see that from Lance.
 
Jul 21, 2009
224
0
0
Visit site
colwildcat said:
Tell, me, honestly, in what way has anything so far screwed his chance of winning the tour, as he sits here with a multiple minute lead?

Here is the list:

1- Promising AC the leadership of the team and then pulling the rug under him when Lance showed up.

2- Not providing him with the help he needed: Noval.

3- Having a DS that has been very unprofessional in showing his preference for Lance.

4- Once AC got the upper hand, by not sacrificing LA and AK at all in tempo riding, and by letting them still be a threat to AC.

5- By allowing LA to practice phsicological warfare on his teammate.

6- By diverting resources to help Lance instead of focusing on winning the TdF.

And that is only the kind of crap that is visible from the outside. I would like to know what other kind of moves JB and LA have pulled internally.
 
Jul 21, 2009
224
0
0
Visit site
frizzlefry said:
If he wanted to put as much time into AK and LA, why did he ask AK and JB if he could attack?


Why did they tell him he could if they didn't want him to put any time to AK and LA? oh wait! they told him he shouldn't... of course!
 
Apr 1, 2009
233
0
0
Visit site
stomper staines said:
The thing is, he's not a cleaver as JB.
Can I just confirm that this is a joke?

You cannot seriously be suggesting that JB is clever?

His skills as a DS are purely in having the strongest i.e. most doped rider.

His lack of skills were highlighted in the 2006 Tour when the only thing he achieved was purchasing a stage win for Popovych from Freire of Rabobank.