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Contador's doping on Verbier debunked?

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Polish

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"you want a rider??"

Bristol Park Cycling said:
Do we think LeMond should have been more careful before he used his position as a Tour winner to accuse a top rider of doping, during a Tour?

LeMond should have been more careful.

Does Greg have something against TdF winners riding Treks?
Wonder if his public comments will hurt Trek's sales:(

I mean, c'mon, what LeMond insinuated about Alberto in a major newspaper was much much worse than Lance cockadoodling "you want a rider?' during a quiet dinner sheesh! Why do Fran and Alberto put up with it?
 
Nov 16, 2009
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Polish said:
LeMond should have been more careful.

Does Greg have something against TdF winners riding Treks?
Wonder if his public comments will hurt Trek's sales:(

I mean, c'mon, what LeMond insinuated about Alberto in a major newspaper was much much worse than Lance cockadoodling "you want a rider?' during a quiet dinner sheesh! Why do Fran and Alberto put up with it?

I believe LeMond was out of contract when he made these remarks. However, it gives us a clue as to the type of thing LeMond would have been saying about LA throughout his Tour wins if Trek had not told him his contract required him to keep his mouth shut.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Polish said:
LeMond should have been more careful.

Does Greg have something against TdF winners riding Treks?
Wonder if his public comments will hurt Trek's sales:(

I mean, c'mon, what LeMond insinuated about Alberto in a major newspaper was much much worse than Lance cockadoodling "you want a rider?' during a quiet dinner sheesh! Why do Fran and Alberto put up with it?

Please get back on track guys. There is LeMond Trek thread elsewehere. BPC/Sprocket is back again. No surprise there. It's been quiet the last few days.

Polish you should be careful. This idea was debated and dealt with months ago. Did you read the article in Lemonde? I did. Greg asked a question and said that Vayers figures indicated something could be wrong if they were correct, not that it was. As for the VO2max question...who asked Contador this? I've heard it before but never seen footage or a quote in the media. None. I doubt it happened.

As for Vayers figures and Greg writing an article on it. Nothing was amiss. Vayers figures rely soo heavily on guesswork they are anything but accurate. Most people (those with brains and IQs over 110) knew this at the time. LeMond and Lemonde were not on some anti-Tour leader crusade. Read the article and look at the language used. Inquisitive journalism. Conclusions that were drawn by many after the article were absurd, even for the Clinic.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread. Balance is needed and everything needs to be looked at. Vayers did not do this. He guessed, a fact he never disagreed with. All the whoha was from the zealots getting over excited. The reason Greg LeMond suggests for powertaps and wattage measuring is to help understand what is happening (greater scope) away from the chemistry sets.
 
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Bristol Park Cycling said:
Imagine if LeMond was able to spout this crack pot bullcrap against LA every year throughout his wins. Cycling would have been executed not just in the US, but around the world. :(

What crack pot bullcrap are you referring to?
 
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The whole argument for using Vo2 scores to determine the ability of an athlete to produce a certain amount of power are not full proof enough to take much (if any) stock in them.

I am currently taking a college course on Coaching Cycling at the University of Utah from Dr. Massimo Testa. One piece of information that was very interesting to me is that a large portion of the oxygen consumed during a Vo2 test comes from the movement of an athlete drawing air in and out of their lungs. The quoted figure from Dr. Testa was 10-15% of Vo2. He has studied athletes whom during a season have made their breathing patterns more efficient as they become more fit. This lowers their oxygen consumption scores, yet increasing power at peak. More oxygen is available to go to leg muscles because less is wasted controlling breathing.

If you are comparing two riders with different efficiencies in breathing one may have a higher Vo2 but not be able to produce as much power as an athlete with a lower Vo2.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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Bristol Park Cycling said:
Imagine if LeMond was able to spout this crack pot bullcrap against LA every year throughout his wins. Cycling would have been executed not just in the US, but around the world. :(

What crack pot bullcrap are you referring to?
 
chase196126 said:
The whole argument for using Vo2 scores to determine the ability of an athlete to produce a certain amount of power are not full proof enough to take much (if any) stock in them.

I am currently taking a college course on Coaching Cycling at the University of Utah from Dr. Massimo Testa. One piece of information that was very interesting to me is that a large portion of the oxygen consumed during a Vo2 test comes from the movement of an athlete drawing air in and out of their lungs. The quoted figure from Dr. Testa was 10-15% of Vo2. He has studied athletes whom during a season have made their breathing patterns more efficient as they become more fit. This lowers their oxygen consumption scores, yet increasing power at peak. More oxygen is available to go to leg muscles because less is wasted controlling breathing.

And then the athlete with the higher VO2 works on his breathing technique...
 
Polish said:
Greg hinted/accused Alberto of doping in a major French Newspaper.
No proof, mind you, just "An Indication"

Alberto should SUE Greg's keester big time!

When people said he spoke about Lance, they said it was jealousy of another American.
Does Alberto hold and American passport maybe........
 

Polish

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Digger said:
When people said he spoke about Lance, they said it was jealousy of another American.
Does Alberto hold and American passport maybe........

Good point. Many were very SUPRISED when Greg took a potshot at Alberto,
they were so accustomed to Greg's laserlike focus on Lance.

There are currently 2 theories that are gaining the most support:

Theory 1: Greg aimed his doping radar at Alberto to diffuse the idea that
he is obsessed only with Lance.

Theory 2: Greg does not like Dopers who ride TREK bicycles.

Of course, both Theories could be correct...
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Polish said:
Good point. Many were very SUPRISED when Greg took a potshot at Alberto,
they were so accustomed to Greg's laserlike focus on Lance.

There are currently 2 theories that are gaining the most support:

Theory 1: Greg aimed his doping radar at Alberto to diffuse the idea that
he is obsessed only with Lance.

Theory 2: Greg does not like Dopers who ride TREK bicycles.

Of course, both Theories could be correct...

So you'r saying Alberto and Lance are dopers? they should SUE your keester big time!
 
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All the top Tour riders are jacked to the kills, INCLUDING Conta-doper. If you have watched cycling for longer that 4 years and you still dont think so your an idiot, not meant as a flame though but fact (in my opinion, lol).

They blood dope with their own frozen red cells and use IGF-1, insulin, ACTH hormone & that fat burning drug as well as other 02 carriers. (imo ;))

The VAM can be very accurate if its on a steady climb with not much wind. If its on a climb with varying grades then it can be off. I think Lemond got it right that time in my humble opinion, 6.7 watts per kilo or something like that for Contador's FTP and a V02 max of 99.5. It would be hard just to find a guy that can do that for 5 minutes on the hill to see if the speed correlates.
 
BigBoat said:
All the top Tour riders are jacked to the kills, INCLUDING Conta-doper. If you have watched cycling for longer that 4 years and you still dont think so your an idiot, not meant as a flame though but fact (in my opinion, lol).

They blood dope with their own frozen red cells and use IGF-1, insulin, ACTH hormone & that fat burning drug as well as other 02 carriers. (imo ;))

The VAM can be very accurate if its on a steady climb with not much wind. If its on a climb with varying grades then it can be off. I think Lemond got it right that time in my humble opinion, 6.7 watts per kilo or something like that for Contador's FTP and a V02 max of 99.5. It would be hard just to find a guy that can do that for 5 minutes on the hill to see if the speed correlates.

Wasn't their a significant tail wind that day? I recall them mentioning it on the telecast (I can confirm when I get home tonight). If that's correct, wouldn't that throw off the calculations?
 
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Publicus said:
Wasn't their a significant tail wind that day? I recall them mentioning it on the telecast (I can confirm when I get home tonight). If that's correct, wouldn't that throw off the calculations?

enormously, this is one of the reasons VAM is an indicator.
 
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Publicus said:
Wasn't their a significant tail wind that day? I recall them mentioning it on the telecast (I can confirm when I get home tonight). If that's correct, wouldn't that throw off the calculations?
indeed there was. i recall with confidence strong tail wind references all over.

also just looking at the easily verifiable objective corrections (average % grade 7.5 vs 7.9) and the elevation climbed (638 m vs 669) makes corsettis estimate far more plausible.

what surprised was not antoine vayer over-estimate but the rather meek and toothless comments by the exceedingly well qualified andy coggan whem laura weslo asked him to comment.
 
Wow, BigBoat, back from vacation! ;)

Yes, switchbacks, but mostly a headwind that day.

Very likely Daehlie and probably Ulvang used EPO, but both of these guys, especially Daehlie, were young phenoms with huge potential before EPO came along. It's also widely suspected that while XC skiing had the same problems cycling did during that time, in the 1994 Olympics it was the Italians who were very likely completely jacked.
 
BigBoat said:
All the top Tour riders are jacked to the kills, INCLUDING Conta-doper. If you have watched cycling for longer that 4 years and you still dont think so your an idiot, not meant as a flame though but fact (in my opinion, lol).

They blood dope with their own frozen red cells and use IGF-1, insulin, ACTH hormone & that fat burning drug as well as other 02 carriers. (imo ;))

The VAM can be very accurate if its on a steady climb with not much wind. If its on a climb with varying grades then it can be off. I think Lemond got it right that time in my humble opinion, 6.7 watts per kilo or something like that for Contador's FTP and a V02 max of 99.5. It would be hard just to find a guy that can do that for 5 minutes on the hill to see if the speed correlates.

Thanks for the reminder!
 
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BigBoat said:
All the top Tour riders are jacked to the kills, INCLUDING Conta-doper. If you have watched cycling for longer that 4 years and you still dont think so your an idiot, not meant as a flame though but fact (in my opinion, lol).

They blood dope with their own frozen red cells and use IGF-1, insulin, ACTH hormone & that fat burning drug as well as other 02 carriers. (imo ;))

The VAM can be very accurate if its on a steady climb with not much wind. If its on a climb with varying grades then it can be off. I think Lemond got it right that time in my humble opinion, 6.7 watts per kilo or something like that for Contador's FTP and a V02 max of 99.5. It would be hard just to find a guy that can do that for 5 minutes on the hill to see if the speed correlates.

Yes BigBoat is back and in this case full of it. Opinions are not always facts. Facts can always be an opinion. Your opinion in this case is ignorant and showing your bias.

Considering Vayers math said Contador was riding at a VO2max of 99.5ml/min/kg. Not that AC had a VO2max of 99.5 but was riding at 99.5. Nobody rides at their maximum VO2max, because if they did, they'd hit it and then stop. They ride at a percentage of it. Try 80ml/min/kg for an accurate and believable figure. Vayers proposal would make Contador's actual VO2max over 100. BigBoat you saw some data that reflected and justified your personal opinion on doping and failed to query the math and specifics. People who disagree with the validity and accuracy of the data are not idiots. This is not fact, just your opinion. Most will agree there is rampant doping in many sports but the figures in this case are beyond what is possible even with doping.

I will agree cyclists use autologuous blood doping, IGF-1, hemapure, ACTH, HGH and that fat burning drug AICAR. Do you know what happens when people become complacent in their analysis and arithmetic? They do what NASA achieved years back and forget to convert between metres and feet and crash 200 million dollar probes into planets surfaces. Get the math right.
 

buckwheat

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workingclasshero said:
bet he's now kicking himself over this being revealed, seeing as this can be considered a strong indicator that he was doped. :eek: especially as since then very many of his toughest opponents have been caught

file that along with his early retirement just around the time when the test for r-epo was ready :eek:

also, word on the street is he was spotted along with vegard ulvang at a seminar in italy where the topic supposedly was how to dope (now this is very unofficial) :eek:

The last viking used EPO? Say it ain't so Vegard..:eek:
 
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python said:
what surprised was not antoine vayer over-estimate but the rather meek and toothless comments by the exceedingly well qualified andy coggan whem laura weslo asked him to comment.

Nothing "meek and toothless" about them: the fact is that anyone who thinks they can determine with certainty whether or not someone is doping based on the type of analysis that was presented is clearly not thinking logically.
 
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acoggan said:
Nothing "meek and toothless" about them: the fact is that anyone who thinks they can determine with certainty whether or not someone is doping based on the type of analysis that was presented is clearly not thinking logically.
glad you read my comment and clarified. if you said that much back than when laura asked i'd hardly use the same adjectives. otherwise, i agree with your latest substantive comment completely.
 
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python said:
glad you read my comment and clarified. if you said that much back than when laura asked i'd hardly use the same adjectives.

I don't know what planet you're living on, because that is precisely what I said back when Laura asked for my opinion.
 
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Here is what I called meek and toothless andy.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contadors-climbing-credibility-questioned
coggan said:
Taking everything into consideration, I'd say that a more reasonable estimate of Contador's power during that ascent is about 450 W.

available sources put contador&#8217]http://www.saris.com/athletes/CommentView,guid,37da0f26-ac2e-4f9d-b7f0-37784b1a2ae0.aspx[/url]
a lim said:
All I&#8217]6.7 watts per kg at threshold is not physiological or humanly possible[/U], unless you’re a hybrid human horse or a grey hound human dog or another species. I don’t even think Frankenstein could hold 6.7 watts per kg at threshold.