Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[pmcg76]

wow, I hoped my link with of the Vayer's interview (where he says Dan Martin is clean) could get some good reactions.
but wow, that's more than I hoped.
the clinic never lets you down especially when JV and his jolly friends are involved. and yes, I liked what Vayer said about Dan.

I think the thread has gone astray badly, you have Netserk trying to outvortex Dr.Mas for whatever reason. Benotti and sniper claiming JV is just interested in his bank balance and very little actual discussion on what was a very good article. I don't even know how JV fits into this discussion other than Vayer more or less agreeing with what he has been claiming over the last few years.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

wow, I hoped my link with Vayer's interview (where he says Dan Martin is clean) could get some good reactions.
but wow, that's more than I hoped.
the clinic never lets you down especially when JV and his jolly friends are involved. and yes, I like what Vayer says about Dan.

Me too. Nothing wrong with some believing every now and then. Lets see if the JV hooligans are also impressed by Vayers statements about Green Mountain. But I guess that is too much for the tailwind tigers.

 

[Benotti69]

............


Benotti ........... claiming JV is just interested in his bank balance .......

Wonder why Dr Mas doesn't vortex your inaccuracies??????

 

[Benotti69]

Me too. Nothing wrong with some believing every now and then. Lets see if the JV hooligans are also impressed by Vayers statements about Green Mountain. But I guess that is too much for the tailwind tigers.

Wonder are there 12 Tailwind Tigers yet?

 

[pmcg76]

Ask JV.

Good of you to admit you were wrong.

You are the one claiming he is selling cleaner cycling for his bank balance so I would expect some sort of evidence to back that up. Perhaps JV didn't move to cycling to make money, you are hardly going to make money running a junior/U-23 team.

 

[sniper]

Wonder why Dr Mas doesn't vortex your inaccuracies??????

10 chars...

 

[Benotti69]

You are the one claiming he is selling cleaner cycling for his bank balance so I would expect some sort of evidence to back that up. Perhaps JV didn't move to cycling to make money, you are hardly going to make money running a junior/U-23 team.

So he isn't selling cleanER cycling?

If he wasn't doing to it make money why did he move to Europe to where the big boys ride for big money (in cycling)?

Why not stay a small junior/u23 feeder team?

That he built a team to ride the TdF shows he was in it for money. He has complained about how little money Garmin have compared to others.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So he isn't selling cleanER cycling?

If he wasn't doing to it make money why did he move to Europe to where the big boys ride for big money (in cycling)?

Why not stay a small junior/u23 feeder team?

That he built a team to ride the TdF shows he was in it for money. He has complained about how little money Garmin have compared to others.

So he is "selling" it? And he gets less money than other teams?
I thought you were whinging that mentioning JV was derailing the thread?

(Nor was it me who introduced him, somebody else responded to this old post by someone called Benotti69)

Why would WADA or USADA waste money and time testing clean riders?

Comical JV really has pulled the wool over peoples eyes.

Internal testing, yep that is another way to perfect getting riders programs to the point where they know how much and when they can do it before they flag the BP or test positive.

He actually put in $50k of his own money to start up Team 5280 a U23 team and when Ellis came on board JV was the one who was reluctant to go to Europe.

Also, when you bait someone to respond as you did upthread then don't call me vortex when I do.

 

[sniper]

JV is only human.
he has interests and sponsorships to protect and serve.
he's a full member of the cycling family. clean(er) cycling is his product. it's what garmin is about. I don't think anybody can deny that.
And i don't see why anybody would deny a relationship between JV's job/salary on the one hand and his PR/public statements on the other.
Again, JV is only human.
in his position, wouldn't you say cycling is clean(er)? I certainly would.

the more interesting question is, is JV/garmin really pushing their riders to stay off the sauce, or are they primarily pushing them to not test positive.
How much faith can we really, objectively, put in Martin.
How reliable was hesjedal's GT win.

 

[Benotti69]

So he is "selling" it? And he gets less money than other teams?
I thought you were whinging that mentioning JV was derailing the thread?

He actually put in $50k of his own money to start up Team 5280 a U23 team and when Ellis came on board JV was the one who was reluctant to go to Europe.

Of course he is selling it. D'oh. He aint hanging out on street corners hoping someone will give a few dollars to start a cycling team.

He put 50K in and how much has he taken out of it? That is how business works.

Reluctant to go, but there he is racing in Europe with a GT, a monument and a team with loads of convicted dopers.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

JV is only human.
he has interests and sponsorships to protect and serve.
he's a full member of the cycling family. clean(er) cycling is his product. it's what garmin is about. I don't think anybody can deny that.
And i don't see why anybody would deny a relationship between JV's job/salary on the one hand and his PR/public statements on the other.
Again, JV is only human.
in his position, wouldn't you say cycling is clean(er)? I certainly would.

the more interesting question is, is JV/garmin really pushing their riders to stay off the sauce, or are they primarily pushing them to not test positive.
How much faith can we really, objectively, put in Martin.
How reliable was hesjedal's GT win.

Thats a good question - but you should not bring up JV in the Martin thread, that will upset Benotti.


You may have missed it, but there is this guy called Antoine Vayer and he said this yesterday:

AV: Those who want to race clean can do it and post results. Riders like Dan Martin winning Liège-Bastogne-Liège is a very good sign. He is a rider we can believe. That’s very encouraging. Back in 1998, there was one: [Christophe] Bassons. Today there are many Bassons. A clean rider is no longer the exception. There is talk of a change of culture, yet some people I speak to inside the peloton will tell me there are still some people who are “full gas.” What percentage is that? It’s hard to say. It’s better now for clean riders, but still many riders are “full gas.” What is sure is that if Bassons raced today, he would now have many good results.

 

[red_flanders]

This thread has gone down the toilet.

It's nice to see Vayer talking about a clean Dan Martin. The way he rides he strikes me as someone who could be riding clean but it's just an impression.

Would be nice to see Vayer expound upon why he thinks Martin is clean. I think that's where all the off-topic stuff got started. He doesn't (in that brief passage) offer any insight into that.

Would like to see his numbers on it.

 

[sniper]

You may have missed it, but there is this guy called Antoine Vayer and he said this yesterday:

There is talk of a change of culture

lol. indeed there is.

anyway, most what he says there sounds like sheer speculation. i'm not hearing any arguments.
except for this bit:

yet some people I speak to inside the peloton will tell me there are still some people who are “full gas.”

 

[sniper]

...
Would be nice to see Vayer expound upon why he thinks Martin is clean. I think that's where all the off-topic stuff got started. He doesn't (in that brief passage) offer any insight into that.

this indeed.

 

[Race Radio]

A large portion of this should be moved to the sidebar thread. This just serves point out the mess this place has become. It is almost impossible to discuss any topic with nuance, and Vayer has done. If you bring up the wind direction you are labeled a Skybot and hounded with nonsense. If you do not think Sky is USPS #2 you are an idiot.

 

[pmcg76]

This thread has gone down the toilet.

It's nice to see Vayer talking about a clean Dan Martin. The way he rides he strikes me as someone who could be riding clean but it's just an impression.

Would be nice to see Vayer expound upon why he thinks Martin is clean. I think that's where all the off-topic stuff got started. He doesn't (in that brief passage) offer any insight into that.

Would like to see his numbers on it.

TBH I think it is more relevant to look at the bigger picture he paint's rather than focus on just Dan Martin. It would seem as though things are a lot better according to Vayer and that has been the general message over the last few years.

I have said before too many people on here focus on SKY and the guys at the very top and claim nothing has changed rather than look at the overall picture. Vayer seem's to re-affirm this in that interview where he suggests some of the very top guys are still doping but that clean guys can win also.

I alway imagine it to be like an amateur race with mixed categories, imagine a race filled with cat 2/3s and a handful of cat 1s. Chances are the lower cat guys have a chance to do well and even on a super day, maybe even win. However put a cat 3 in a race packed with Cat 1s, watch them disappear out the back or struggle to hold on. My own opinion is that kinda reflects the difference in doping terms between cycling in the 90s and the current peloton. The big dopers are still winning but the non-dopers have a better chance to do well whilst in the 90s a clean rider was out the back.

Vayer seems to have contact with quite a few riders and team directors, he mentions the best judges of guys doping are the team directors who doped themselves as they know exactly what to look for. I think he has more info on guys than anybody posting here has. That is why I would give what he says credence as I cannot think of any reason why he would just back a rider without some solid knowledge on te rider in question.

 

[Race Radio]

If I could make a request. I have found pmcg76 to be one of the best posters on this forum. The extent of his knowledge of the sport is amazing and he is a very positive resource for this forum

Please do not drive yet another quality poster away by nitpicking, baiting and trolling his every word.

 

[happytramp]

Agreed. In relation to his last few posts anyway.

 

[sittingbison]

I'm closing this thread for a short while for housecleaning
Cheers
Bison

 

[sittingbison]

aaaasarrrrggghhhhhhh sorry I haven't got enough time to separate the wheat from the chaff. Almost inclined to ditch the lot after the Vayer article.

Heres a hint:
this thread is not about JV or Froome. Take the JV bashing to the JV thread and Sky/Dawg to their threads

Back to on topic please gentle(wo)men

cheers
bison

 

[lean mean &green]

A large portion of this should be moved to the sidebar thread. This just serves point out the mess this place has become. It is almost impossible to discuss any topic with nuance, and Vayer has done. If you bring up the wind direction you are labeled a Skybot and hounded with nonsense. If you do not think Sky is USPS #2 you are an idiot.

you should know it as well as anyone, that's how forums/debate works. The vast majority of calm moderate views in the middle are drowned out by the vehemence of extremes on either side. you can wine about it all you want, it ain't gonna change a thing. each of us chooses to HTFU or go away.

If I could make a request. I have found pmcg76 to be one of the best posters on this forum. The extent of his knowledge of the sport is amazing and he is a very positive resource for this forum

Please do not drive yet another quality poster away by nitpicking, baiting and trolling his every word.

No, you can't and neither can I (make requests). None of us are any better than the others. This "teaming" which leads to group bias is especially disruptive lately. You're welcome to continue your bromance via PM tho.

Back on topic. LBL is a seriously long and difficult race. It's also a one day event which makes it easy to slip through the antidoping noose. I'll spare the lecture on glow times, etc. I respect Vayer but I have serious doubts about winning LBL clean.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Vayer: I remember back in the 1990s, nobody really trained. Everyone was quite stupid. There was no science, no coaching, no training camps, no warmups before a time trial. Now everyone is doing that. The level has increased.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...ome-but-doesnt-have-enough-information_318036

(Vaughters): 'He was perhaps young to retire, but clearly had maximized his abilities at a somewhat earlier age than most through ground-breaking training techniques, and extreme focus. In his 10 years as a professional cyclist he set the record up Mount Ventoux.''

http://web.archive.org/web/20131107204950/http://www.slipstreamsports.com/garmin-slipstream-staff

So noone trained, there was no science or coaching, except Vaughters breaking the record for the Ventoux climb through ground-breaking training techniques.

And now that we have science and coaching, people like Dan martin, from Vaughters' Garmin clean team can win LBL.

I ain't buying it.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

So noone trained, there was no science or coaching, except Vaughters breaking the record for the Ventoux climb through ground-breaking training techniques.

And now that we have science and coaching, people like Dan martin, from Vaughters' Garmin clean team can win LBL.

I ain't buying it.

You should start a 'Dear JV' blog since the 'Dear Wiggo' one proved so successful?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

you should know it as well as anyone, that's how forums/debate works. The vast majority of calm moderate views in the middle are drowned out by the vehemence of extremes on either side. you can wine about it all you want, it ain't gonna change a thing. each of us chooses to HTFU or go away.

Exactly. No one, for instance, listens to Libertine.

No, you can't and neither can I (make requests). None of us are any better than the others. This "teaming" which leads to group bias is especially disruptive lately. You're welcome to continue your bromance via PM tho.

I have no idea what you are even on about here.

 

[Race Radio]

you should know it as well as anyone, that's how forums/debate works. The vast majority of calm moderate views in the middle are drowned out by the vehemence of extremes on either side. you can wine about it all you want, it ain't gonna change a thing. each of us chooses to HTFU or go away.



No, you can't and neither can I (make requests). None of us are any better than the others. This "teaming" which leads to group bias is especially disruptive lately. You're welcome to continue your bromance via PM tho.

Back on topic. LBL is a seriously long and difficult race. It's also a one day event which makes it easy to slip through the antidoping noose. I'll spare the lecture on glow times, etc. I respect Vayer but I have serious doubts about winning LBL clean.

HTFU? Dude, the internet tough guy act is sooo last decade. Save it for the video games.